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New dev blog: Next Unified Inventory Update

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Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#481 - 2012-06-08 13:29:01 UTC
Par'Gellen wrote:
Acks wrote:
"We did this thing because one of us thought it was a good idea. We got attached to the idea and ran with it and we are not looking back damn the consequences. You can yell and scream and kick all you want and while we will tweak a few things for you to make it suck slightly less, we are not going to actually listen to you or give you what you want. Here is some lube, grab your ankles and learn to like it because this is going to happen and there is nothing you can do to stop it."

This is a very good analogy and sums up CCP's attitude in my opinion.


Yup
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#482 - 2012-06-08 13:33:58 UTC
Kusum Fawn wrote:
I need full documentation on click menus in this game from a dev who knows what they are actually on about.



Good luck finding one, haven't seen any as yet around here.
Meytal
Doomheim
#483 - 2012-06-08 13:37:07 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
It's also not a case of us not believing people, it would be naive to assume that people are actively lying to us about a system.

Someone with better forum-fu than I can provide you with a Dev quote to refute this.

CCP Goliath wrote:
We can't open our reference servers to the public however as they have sensitive data on them (all internal mirrors are unpruned and remirroring for a reference server would cause a bunch of conflicts). It's also not quite as simple as just whacking a VM based server up and letting that be public, you're just going to have to take my word for that.

For your sakes then, I really hope you guys work some miracles next week for the update on the 19th. I suspect a number of people are holding out for that to see if you guys really are listening. If you have anything amazing to pull out of a hat, you won't get a better chance than then.
Maul555
Xen Investments
#484 - 2012-06-08 13:42:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Maul555
Maul555 wrote:
Opening orca bays before inferno:

*right click orca > open cargo hold
*right click orca > open ore hold
*right click orca > open corp hangers


Opening orca bays after inferno and fixes so far:

*Hit cargohold button at bottom of screen
*right click orca > shift+click open corporate hangers
*expand tree view > close filters > scroll > shift+click ore hold > collapse tree view
*and now remember to hit shift+click for EVERYTHING else.....
*also remember to manually close windows that you are about to warp away from to avoid getting another cargohold view that you will have to manually close anyways...

- - - - - - - - - -
Please return full original functionality... please



I would really like to get a DEV response on this exact scenario. Please explain to me what I am doing wrong, and how the new UI can help me do things better than before. I keep these windows open because I will need to redistribute ores into all the bays while mining, and then empty all these bays to a single location, several times a day... I can just go to the pos, open the appropriate hangar, and drag all the items from all the open bays to thier new location, then repeat... I have to use special tricks now just to retain this ability. Your new UI, if used as intended, would have me scrolling and switching views in 1 window every time I wanted to do this mundane and routine procedure, thus making it more tedious.

there are many other such usage cases that have been fubard equally, if not more. So many usage cases that it might as well be an infinite number of possibilities... And after all, isn't Eve all about infinite possibilities? And is your UI enhancing, or restricting those infinite possibilities?

I am not asking for an end to the much loved tree. I am only asking that I retain my old workflow. That I not have to use special tricks to retain my old workflow. I do not see this as too much to ask, even slightly.
Bantara
Dolmite Cornerstone
#485 - 2012-06-08 14:04:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Bantara
JOATMOS Incorporated wrote:
Many UI design books that are based on HCI will hand a sizable section (if not a whole chapter) explaining in very plain words about why tree structure is BAD when trying to make things understandable to the general population. It works for IT people, but not the rest of humanity in general.

ah....
<--- assembly programmer.
Bantara
Dolmite Cornerstone
#486 - 2012-06-08 14:32:58 UTC
disasteur wrote:
Bantara wrote:
Haifisch Zahne wrote:
Well, if the tree view is "not going anywhere", I can tell you that I will. One subscription cancelled.

Smoking Blunts wrote:
16 June 2012 - 1:07 pm (in 8 days), thats when my 3 indy accounts run out, may they rest in peace.

Scaugh wrote:
I don't know why I've posted here as I've already unsubbed. I'm getting seriously stresed at a computer game, and i didn't even get a little annoyed with Incarna (3+yrs of playing ..now what game will I play.... sigh)

1 - They don't want to read that you're unsubbing, because remember, it's what you do, not what you say, that they will be watching.
2 - So all you're doing is flooding forum with rants. Stop. And can I haz your stuff?
3, Scaugh: Why, DUST 514, of course!! ;) (In all seriousness, what about Rift? Or Secret World?)

And in general....good Lord, people, how much crap do you own!?!? More tree entries than you have screen height? I gotta see his, please post a screen shot.

town idiot?
clearly you do not know much Bantara, and really people using words like HAZ, doesnt show a lot of intelligence


First off, have some freaking respect, Disasteur. The internet does not need more offensive people.
Secondly, you are too used to the numerous idiots on the internet, because when I say 'please show me', that is not a passive-aggressive disagreement, that's a request. That's an admission of 'I don't know what you're talking about', which if you recall, is the first step of wisdom--to admit you do not know. Spouting that you know so much is the first step of the fool.
Thirdly, how out of touch with the internet are you that you mistakenly assume someone speaking in the common vernacular is unintelligent? Frankly, that assumption and accusation only reveals a lack of intelligence, or an intolerance for internet memes.
Par'Gellen
#487 - 2012-06-08 14:40:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Par'Gellen
Maul555 wrote:
Maul555 wrote:
Opening orca bays before inferno:

*right click orca > open cargo hold
*right click orca > open ore hold
*right click orca > open corp hangers


Opening orca bays after inferno and fixes so far:

*Hit cargohold button at bottom of screen
*right click orca > shift+click open corporate hangers
*expand tree view > close filters > scroll > shift+click ore hold > collapse tree view
*and now remember to hit shift+click for EVERYTHING else.....
*also remember to manually close windows that you are about to warp away from to avoid getting another cargohold view that you will have to manually close anyways...

- - - - - - - - - -
Please return full original functionality... please



I would really like to get a DEV response on this exact scenario.

As would I. Isn't it interesting how they avoid direct questions about the basic functionality of their new broken UI and rather tell us things like:

CCP Goliath wrote:
...the tree view itself is not going anywhere so I hope that you can come to terms with it in some way.

Basically "STFU or GTFO". Yeah I saw that too...

"To err is human", but it shouldn't be the company motto...
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#488 - 2012-06-08 14:49:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
Bantara wrote:
Many UI design books that are based on HCI will hand a sizable section (if not a whole chapter) explaining in very plain words about why tree structure is BAD when trying to make things understandable to the general population. It works for IT people, but not the rest of humanity in general.
ah....
<--- assembly programmer.


tree views are ****, they only make sense if you are looking for something you dont remember where it is or there is an overwhelming amount of item categories to deal with.
In our case for inventory I exactly know what I want to access but have to deal with crappy tree view to get there, everytime I want to access one of the basic item locations like item hangar, ship hangar, drone hangar or corp hangar I have to READ tree item labels, completely aside of the issue with only 1 window.
Bantara
Dolmite Cornerstone
#489 - 2012-06-08 14:58:54 UTC
Jonuts wrote:
Bantara wrote:

And in general....good Lord, people, how much crap do you own!?!? More tree entries than you have screen height? I gotta see this, please post a screen shot.


Uh. Go to a PoS? Have a bunch of containers? Plenty of ways to achieve that without actually gaming it to TRY and achieve it. More tree entries than screen height isn't even a lot of stuff, especially since MOST people have wide screens these days, meaning vertical real-estate is at a premium compared to horizontal.

<---wide-screen owner, so that's not unknown to me.
Containers? Sure, 7 or 8 of them. If I need more storage space, I get larger containers. Can't stand huge long lists; I've spent hours shuttling stuff around just to reduce my Assets entries down to 3 stations or less.

Something I've noticed is a lot of people are using two words interchangably which aren't--functionality and efficiency. If you can do the same thing(same start situation, same end goal), then it has the same functionality. Efficiency is how much work/time/money/effort/hair-pulling must be done to accomplish it.
UI has the same functionality.
UI has severly decreased efficiency for POS-type tasks, and barely increased efficiency for simply tasks.

Rommiee wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Yes in my player activity I have had repeated exposure to corp hangars. I still do, and have not had a large degree of trouble adjusting to the new inventory, this is why I'm asking what specific troubles you are having so that I can help you.

You ARE joking, RIGHT ?
If you had EVER played the game you would not have brought this crap in. Seriously.

This is narrow-minded bullcrap. You are basically calling Goliath a liar because you won't accept that someone would like something you hate. You are not God, you're way is not the only way. I think the threadnaughts are a clear indication that your opinion is the majority opinion, but do not get so high and mighty that you dismiss others for disagreeing with you. If you're pants are going to get lit on such fire for something, at least make it something truly important like human rights violations or starvation, not a freaking game.
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#490 - 2012-06-08 15:08:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
CCP Goliath, since you seem to know the new inventory system inside out, please tell me how do I open a corporation hangar in a station.

There is no button in the station services.
There is no keyboard shortcut.

Is really the only option to open another window I absolutely don't need (my hangar or cargo or whatever), click the arrow in the top left to bring up the tree, and open the corp hangar from there? If so, do you think this is an improvement over the previous system where it took one button press?



(edit) As for the "same deal, just with tabs on the left"... well, sort of. See: http://i.imgur.com/uIyP2.png
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#491 - 2012-06-08 15:09:10 UTC
A bit late, but…
CCP Goliath wrote:
Par'Gellen wrote:
Fair enough. My specific troubles are that the corp hangar does not open in a tabbed hangar view exactly like the old one with a single click of a single button. I should not have to spin my chair and hold keys down to get what I had before with a simple single click.
Well, I would argue that it does, it's just that the tabs are now to the left of the window rather than at the top of the window. Would I be fair in saying that? Yes, it's not exactly the same, but surely we can compromise here in that the functionality has been retained.
Aside from what people have already mentioned about the usefulness of tabs vs. trees, there's also this:

When you opened the old corp hangar (or any container with the same divisions), that window neatly contained all those divisions and they were immediately available and shown in context. “This is the Corp Hangar, here are its divisions”.

When you open a corp division in the tree view, you do not have that. Note the difference in wording because it's important: you can no longer open a corp hangar. All you can do is open a division. There is no longer any context for those other divisions and nothing is neatly contained. Instead, you get “this is a corp hangar division, somewhere in the tree on the left are the other ones — no, I'm not going to tell you which ones”.

If I opened an old corp hangar, I could immediately go to the tab list and click the right division. If I wanted the next division, I just clicked the next tab. If I did something else inbetween, I could still just click the corp hangar, then the right tab, because you could never see one without seeing the other. The context was always maintained.

If I open a division in the new UI, I have to scroll through the list of all item locations before even coming across the division I'm in. If I want to go to the next division, I have to find it in the list. That list may show something completely different, so I how have to scroll through it all again. If I do something else between looking in the two divisions, I will have to scroll through the tree list every time.

…and this is just the trivial scenario when you have a single corp hangar in a station. Now add the very common scenario of having a POS where every item in the list (except the POS tower itself) is a corp hangar.

The tree view does not replace tabs because the tree view has no context. The entire point of the tree view is to have no context (because it's “unified”). I can no longer open contextually closed windows. The tree view would be a (poor and bloated, for the reasons others have explained) replacement for tabs if I could still spawn a window that was “Component Factory #1" and have the tree view only display the division in that POS array. That's not possible, however — I can open division #1 of that component array, but its “tab list” will contain every “tab“ of every hangar in (and outside of) activation range. The old tabbed list of division only held exactly the seven division that were contained within the array; the new tree view contains any number of divisions that are anywhere near the array.

The tree view replaces the tabs in much the same way as a pizza replaces a five-course meal: the same ingredients and individual tastes might still be there and it will still do the job of making you less hungry, but the carefully combined mixtures of tastes and ingredients (and the ability to skip the cheese tray because you don't fancy any today) makes the meal that much more pleasant an experience. The need to juggle three different forks to get through the different courses is a minor inconvenience at best, and to be honest, you could just skip it if you wanted to…
disasteur
disasterous industries
#492 - 2012-06-08 16:07:17 UTC
Rommiee wrote:
Kusum Fawn wrote:
I need full documentation on click menus in this game from a dev who knows what they are actually on about.



Good luck finding one, haven't seen any as yet around here.



well mabye the 19th... they will role out a 50 page doc about new shortcuts, along with a 4 hour tutorial vid?


ah darn and this time i tried not to be so hatefull :(
Par'Gellen
#493 - 2012-06-08 16:29:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Par'Gellen
Mr. CCP Goliath, I don't really expect you to read this since it is dangerously close to actual feedback but even after today's patch (1.0.10) the circles still spin at login.

Screenshot:
http://www.neoncranium.com/CirclesStillSpinning.jpg

Edit: Just to be clear, they will spin until I relog (sometimes repeatedly).

"To err is human", but it shouldn't be the company motto...
Tlat Ij
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#494 - 2012-06-08 17:28:50 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
FYI when you said make an option to reverse shift click and click, that is exactly what I was referring to when I said " If you like I will ask the team if mapping these as shortcuts that individual users can customise is an option?"

Please do. I asked about it but it seemed to have been missed. (maybe it was just worded very ****** >.>)
TTIGER
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#495 - 2012-06-08 18:06:15 UTC
Dont fight with players , rememebr last company did this ? Look to SWG where is it now ,after they tried force NGE to players ?

WHY would we accept any impact ? What are you smoking ?

CCP Goliath wrote:

Which I assume you mean to be that you do not want to use the tree view at all on basic principle? The team are doing everything they can to make this of minimal impact to you, but the tree view itself is not going anywhere so I hope that you can come to terms with it in some way.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#496 - 2012-06-08 18:18:53 UTC
Tabs and the tree aren't the issue. The way you have it now, if it was tabs woild go like this.

Open items, click corp hanger tab, all other tabs are still.on top like ships, drone bays, items. It's a mess. There should be a tree view for just the corp hanger, a tree view just for ships. And neo com buttons to open the different windows. You never did watch my feedback video that got 15 likes did you :(

What if the tree view in Windows 7 showed you EVERYTHING ALL THE TIME. go back and fix this mess.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
disasteur
disasterous industries
#497 - 2012-06-08 18:42:42 UTC
TTIGER wrote:
Dont fight with players , rememebr last company did this ? Look to SWG where is it now ,after they tried force NGE to players ?

WHY would we accept any impact ? What are you smoking ?

CCP Goliath wrote:

Which I assume you mean to be that you do not want to use the tree view at all on basic principle? The team are doing everything they can to make this of minimal impact to you, but the tree view itself is not going anywhere so I hope that you can come to terms with it in some way.





the tree view sucks, its a worthless piece of something something, your statement about this makes it all clear, that you and with you i mean CCP never ever intended to do anything else then to fix and patch this new UI, all the earlier statements made about this by CCP where just a bunch of lies.... just a small quote (restore as much....) you might find the message somewhere in the numerous topics about this issue

and ofc. you know the difference between fixing and restoring right?

and no i will not come to terms with it, since inferno struck i have only been online for a quick skill change and check out the fixes
just to find out what i already knew...
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#498 - 2012-06-08 18:51:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Dream Five
ZaBob wrote:
Dream Five wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:

Which I assume you mean to be that you do not want to use the tree view at all on basic principle? The team are doing everything they can to make this of minimal impact to you, but the tree view itself is not going anywhere so I hope that you can come to terms with it in some way.


There's a reason why MANY softwares have moved the hell away from tree views and implemented tabs.

It's called basic, simple sense.

Writings are horizontal (western ones). That is, they take lots of horizontal real estate.

Tree views make already large windows unnecessarily larger by putting horizontal information to the left of the window.
Tabs make large windows functional because they take small vertical real estate and zero horizontal real estate.

The very fact you are going against all the accepted modern UI designs and find it good enough to "not going anywhere" is worrysome.

You are implementing outdated and unpractical concepts. The day the UI is bug fee, it will still be conceptually wrong.

See, many times I wanted to send CCP my curriculum but with decision makers taking this kind of directions and then sticking to them, I would feel embarassed. I would probably be bound to some "you won't publicly state your superiors borked grand time" legal agreement as well so I'd be put together the same people who can think these kinds of designs.

No way.



Yes. Tabs are better than trees for reasons outlined. Good reasoning here, worth paying good attention to this one.


True up to a point. You should see the top of my browser window (Chrome), with 54 tabs, each one a favicon rather than something meaningful.

My Eclipse editors end up much the same way.

There comes a point where tabs start to fail -- you can go to multiple rows of tabs, but eventually that fails as well.

Trees have their place. When structure is important, they help. When the list is long, they help.

Where do we have the longest potential list of containers?

The Assets window.


You can't help a long list of containers with a linear structure. You need a 2D list. Wait, thats what we had, thats right.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#499 - 2012-06-08 19:12:37 UTC
It's like nobody at CCP has ever used Norton Commander or any of the GUI-based clones

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#500 - 2012-06-08 19:16:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Dream Five
Still spinning signs indefinitely in inventory windows about 10% of the time - have to relog to load inventory or undock.. Really? Window positions and state still not saved properly most of the time. Why should I pay you for writing buggy code? Remember to test multi-client setups too....