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New dev blog: Next Unified Inventory Update

First post First post
Author
boeboe joe
Royal Assassins Guild
Chained Reactions
#201 - 2012-06-05 23:42:30 UTC
Mining ( at least for me ) is now much easier, thank you for the updates CCP! Unfortunately I have to agree with the majority here that there are a lot of problems, too many not to be noticed by a little investigating on SiSi and/or QA. From what I hear, people have brought this up during SiSi feedback, but little was done. Iteration is not a dirty word, I look forward to the performance fixes!

Got 'roids?

Soylent Pete
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#202 - 2012-06-06 00:29:34 UTC
I just typed a long-winded, heartfelt and thought-out diatribe about how awful the "unified inventory" idea and implementation was, and clicked "preview" to see the IGB totally throw the message away.

Maybe you should fix that instead of the terrible UI crap that needs to be flushed into space and shot into the sun.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#203 - 2012-06-06 00:29:53 UTC
Tispar wrote:
Udonor wrote:
Tispar wrote:
Feature restoration request: On the Ships and Items hangar tab in station, there used to be the number of items present in each hangar listed between parenthesis, example "Ships (7)" or "Items (321)". This was also present on containers.
Can that number be restored? It's a great visual indicator of 1. how much stuff I have in a certain location, 2. If stacking is taking place, and 3.when I hit the 1000 items per container limit.

If this could be added to the Index tree per ship/hangar/container without having too much of a performance impact that would be nice too.



already there - just open your eyes and look around the UI for the new position of such info

No I am not going give you any more hints you lazy *$&%^ -- LOL


I know it's there, but I want it on the top level view, without clicking on the containers.


so set up tabs then. It's a little extra work but you CAN do it. you can even save out your UI set up and transfer to to other players can't you?

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg

Callic Veratar
#204 - 2012-06-06 01:44:39 UTC
I found something missing in the new Unified Inventory:

When I jettison cargo, the can should automatically be added to my tree view.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#205 - 2012-06-06 02:08:54 UTC
i would like to pin some hangars to the top of the tree view, with my active ship and item hangar pinned by default but depinable on request (is that even a word ?)
Perramas
DreddNaut
#206 - 2012-06-06 02:11:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Perramas
CCP Goliath | QA Director | @CCP_Goliath

So you are the one responsible for this steaming pile of crap that was foisted onto the player base. All I have to say to you is You are the weakest link, goodbye!

Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people- Eleanor Roosevelt

Jonuts
The Arrow Project
#207 - 2012-06-06 02:23:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonuts
Quote:
Generally, doing frequent updates isn’t really healthy and can’t be maintained for longer periods of time, which means we are going to move back towards less frequent releases, with the tradeoff being that they are going to be bigger.



CRAZY idea here. Next time leave it on the test server until implementing it won't require you to rapid fire releases for it? I know, I know. Crazy talk. Waiting until you have a presentable product before shoving it down peoples throats? What will us zany kids think of next, right?

Quote:
I wanted to expand a bit on CCP Soundwave's comment in his dev blog that "doing frequent updates isn’t really healthy and can’t be maintained for longer periods of time" from a technical perspective. In this particular case then the frequent Inferno 1.0.x releases are starting to press against the staging process of the next main deployment.


Wow. Just making my case for me now. Even the GAME hates you for releasing the unified inventory. Oddly, that makes me feel warm and fuzzy. I like this feeling. I get my revenge vicariously through your attempts to shovel your own ****. I love it.

Quote:
This is not the reason. We honestly thought we were ready.


This is honestly the first time I REALLY wanted to paste in the picard facepalm. Do you guys even PLAY the game? I'm sorry, I'd rather believe you're lying to us here than to believe that you actually thought it was ready.

[
Quote:
Obviously, they're putting in work hours to spite you.


No. They're putting in work hours for a paycheck because we pay their patechecks, and potentially for a genuine love of the game they've been building for god knows how long. Definitely not to spite us. That's usually managements job. To look good by rushing production on something, and inevitably failing.

Quote:


Did you read the last dev blogs? Sadly there is no more turning back on this....
This update was really needed... because CCP plans on changing other parts of the game that depends on this... Like the whole POS system... It is all part of a bigger plan... have some faith


Or, for us folks who don't want to rely on faith, we can simply point out that it's their JOB to release stable working products. As they failed in that metric quite miserably, it's kinda our job to heckle them about it. A great deal. Sorry, this update isn't nowhere near as necessary as you seem to claim. It was a poor rush job, nothing more. Someone thought they could get away with a bare minimum, and they were wrong. This is like grabbing a car frame out of an auto plant and talking about how you got it because you needed a new car. Just makes you a ******* idiot for not getting a completed car.
Tlat Ij
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#208 - 2012-06-06 02:40:16 UTC
In the ESC window under General Settings tab and the window section there is "Try To Use Existing Info Window If Any (Except if Shift is Pressed)" for info windows. Can you guys make an option like that for the inventory so I can make every window open separately without having to do anything differently than I used to?

Also, when I have the "Merge Items and Ships into Station Panel" option selected, clicking the Items tab should change focus to the Item window. It currently does not.
Darius III
Interstellar eXodus
Against ALL Authorities.
#209 - 2012-06-06 03:58:02 UTC
I am still very unhappy with this system.

More clicks DOES NOT = more fun.

Hmmm

Jonuts
The Arrow Project
#210 - 2012-06-06 04:03:51 UTC
Quote:

Not definitive, we have a long list that we're constantly adding to. You'll very likely see us iterating based on feedback till late in the year if needed, so this feature is definitely not being left behind :)


Wow. I can not express my feelings on this. Just...wow. You broke my brain with just how ******* stupid this entire situation is. For fucks sake, this is making the MILITARY look like they know wtf they're doing. When you make the way a MILITARY works look efficient and intelligent, you need to slap yourself. Up to another 6 months of patches before your pet project is working? Congratulations. CCP really put on their try hard pants when it comes to ******* up.

Quote:

Quoting from other thread as its still extremely relevant.


WHOOHOO! I got a fan!

Quote:


More broadly, you whiners need to grow up and deal with it as adults.


Hmm. Insulting all your peers is really more childish than our "whining". Our "whining" is (slowly...oh so slowly...) making change. You insulting us isn't. Our Whining is working towards making the game work again. Your insulting us isn't. In the end, the squeeky wheel gets the grease. Thats the type of world we live in. You'll find that the "adult" ways of settling disputes aren't very effective. You may look like a monumental ass, but when you start making waves, the people you're paying money to start paying attention. if I wanted to be an adult about this situation, I'd handle it the way adults have handled disputes throughout the entire history of life. I'd kill everyone who disagreed with me. I'd rather be whine about it instead. Keeps me out of jail and is more likely to end with some sort of positive resolution instead of a bunch of dead people and generations of hatred.

Quote:
Don't fall into this trap of thinking that Sisi feedback is ignored though


Then...don't ignore it? Funny how that one works...

Really, nothing this expansion was worth the loss of a functional UI. It's The video game equivalent of getting in shape at the cost of becoming a eunuch. Definitely not a sane tradeoff.

Quote:

We aren't asking for heads on a spike here (yet)


Speak for yourself. BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!
Jonuts
The Arrow Project
#211 - 2012-06-06 04:16:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonuts
Quote:
I wish you were speaking for everyone but a fair section of the reponses, even just in this thread, have gone beyond the boundaries of respectability. Customers demanding a quality product is fine, customers demanding hard working peoples' jobs, or calling their personal integrity, skill and commitment into question, isn't in my book.


Then do the job right the first time and don't ignore negative feedback. Most folks posting negative feedback aren't just there to feed their ego's, they're laying out what the problems are. You guys dug your grave here. We're just shoveling the dirt back in on you at this point. This isn't really rocket science guy. Not rolling out universally despised "features" is a no-brainer. If you can't do something that simple, why should we treat you with respect? We pay with certain expectations, and you just violated our expectations like a drunken prom date. Again, we PAY you. You do this FOR PROFIT. Not out of the kindness of your heart. As such, when you monumentally **** up then turn around and tell us we're just too stupid to give it a chance, don't expect a bunch of friendly replies. Especially since we can't man up, grab our nuts (Or ovaries for the ladies) and code this **** ourselves. We're helpless babies. All we can do is make noise until you get off your ass and do your job. This is made all the worse because the entire situation exists only because CCP, in it's infinite arrogance, ignored almost all the feedback on this subject. That's where the hate comes from.


Also, is it really that hard to put the Ship Hangar and Item hangar buttons back on the neocom, and add all the bays back into the right click menus? Why don't we have those back yet? Better yet, why were they ever removed?
Par'Gellen
#212 - 2012-06-06 04:26:00 UTC
Jonuts wrote:
Also, is it really that hard to put the Ship Hangar and Item hangar buttons back on the neocom, and add all the bays back into the right click menus? Why don't we have those back yet? Better yet, why were they ever removed?

These are very good questions that need to be answered.

"To err is human", but it shouldn't be the company motto...

ZaBob
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#213 - 2012-06-06 04:51:23 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Guys, the team isn't stopping working on fixes and improvements, they are changing their release cadence. Next release in 2 days, then another one 12 days after that. The 12 days (7 days development time) isn't going to spent doing no work! Please, I understand that you are angry, upset, etc. Your vitriolic hate is doing you no good - we don't listen harder because you call us worse names. To those who are still keeping it constructive, thanks, and we are working!


I really hope, when you get out from under this mess, that you take a good, hard look at why you got into it, and why its taking you so long to get out of it.

The first is the big issue, of course. But you've gotten into such messes with such regularity, that I think you really have to search deeply and understand *why* you keep making these mistakes.

The "why is it taking so long to fix" is a tougher nut to crack, because, in ordinary development time. it's NOT so long. But in terms of player experience -- in terms of what you NEED to achieve -- you need to streamline where you can. Your revision control system sounds like one issue.

I rejected Perforce due to its limitations, about 13 years ago. I've helped migrate away from Perforce at another job 5 years ago -- that decision had been made when I got there, so it's not just my own opinion.

My current work finds even SVN to be a barrier, and we're seriously looking at git.

But of course, the tool is only a part of the picture, it's how you use it.

Whatever you do; QA is going to be a challenge, but the easier you make it to manage the changes, the less pressure you'll put on QA.

But if I could make one suggestion: In these circumstances, stop managing to release dates, and manage to QA-able user stories. Set the target on what you can achieve in a short time and test, and push it out once it satisfies QA.

You'll get a better product with less pressure. Let us know the feature goals and the progress, and we'll be happy to deal with the date uncertainty.

Give us a chance to interact on those feature goals, and the whole effort will be better focused.
Panhead4411
Rothschild's Sewage and Septic Sucking Services
The Possum Lodge
#214 - 2012-06-06 04:54:01 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:

Don't fall into this trap of thinking that Sisi feedback is ignored though - plenty of feedback received on Sisi results in changes being made and plenty is taken on board but not implemented, for good and for bad. Look at the recent Incursion rebalancing and the continual input Affinity and team Five-0 had from seasoned incursion runners - they made a number of iterations based on that feedback.


You mean the feedback that was given while it was on SiSi that stated you guys made the Assaults WAY WAY too easy compared to what they used to be...there was many a comment stating that with the new changes it was making the AS the new VG's...that was the most ardent cry i saw in the SiSi build feedback for that update...(there were a few minor nuances as well)

And when it got put on TQ...unless i'm mistaken, it was the same build as on SiSi...and the AS sites were now relatively easier than VG's and paid more.

That doesn't look like you took the feedback and listened to it.

And there was the Dev comments (after this current mess hit the fan) stating pretty much that they were reading, and dismissing most of the feedback...

http://blog.beyondreality.se/shift-click-does-nothing    < Unified Inventory is NOT ready...

ZaBob
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#215 - 2012-06-06 05:35:02 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:


I wish you were speaking for everyone but a fair section of the reponses, even just in this thread, have gone beyond the boundaries of respectability. Customers demanding a quality product is fine, customers demanding hard working peoples' jobs, or calling their personal integrity, skill and commitment into question, isn't in my book. As to the current implementation, that has been addressed numerous times throughout this thread and in the dev blog that the thread comes from so I won't repeat myself and others further.


There are a lot of things I'll call into question -- skill is one. Not coding skill, not even design skill.

Something much more advanced and difficult, actually, but vitally important.

Skill in working with the customer. All aspects, from understanding the customer needs to handling upset customers.

I will agree that some of the responses go beyond reasonable bounds. But you know what?

That's your job -- all of you -- to deal with. Because you're going to have some customers who act like jerks. And you're going to take their money anyway, and try to make even them happy, because happy jerk customers bring in more paying customers, and angry customers, jerks or not, drive customers away.

You've done some things right on this point, others, like this post, not so much. I'd have suggested just responding "thank you" instead.

But really, rather than refining your skills in dealing with angry customers, I'd rather see you focus on better connecting to your customers.

This is not something that the CSM can help you with.

You have a major problem with monolithic releases. I quite understand how hard it is, to put up a feature on SiSi, and then NOT release it, when everything else that's being tested on SiSi is ready for release, and it's all part of one tested package.

I understand, it would have been difficult to NOT release the unified inventory.

But that's an organizational skill I think you urgently need to learn. It's an *advanced* skill, no question about it!

But don't neglect the "dealing with angry customers" skills either. You're always going to have angry customers.

Say, for example, the bug that causes a POS to pack up and move 120 km away from where it was anchored, leaving its modules behind, and everything stuck, so it can't be fixed except by blowing stuff up. Not a common bug, but a real pain to deal with -- and non-responsive responses to the petitions. The people who put up the POS are annoyed. The people who helped them (including me) are annoyed. The people who had to help destroy your screwed up hardware (including me) are annoyed.

Every contact makes a difference. Maybe a hundred people know about the above incident, and your (CCP)'s lack of useful response. Now, maybe several thousand. Every contact has a multiplier effect -- usually higher for angry customers than happy ones, unfortunately.

Not more than 20 people would know about it, had it been dealt with appropriately -- and they would have very different feelings about it. I would not be nearly so annoyed, had the response been appropriate.

Now, take that, and scale it up, and apply it to this situation. EVERY player is affected, and on an ongoing basis. You have basically alienated virtually your ENTIRE customer base (again).

Practice not taking criticism as a blow to your ego, and instead, approach it analytically. Why is the customer angry? What can I do to help? What could we have done to have kept him happy? Can we make him happy again?

I don't mean to cause you to freeze up in fear of making a mistake in dealing with your customers, though! On the contrary, what's needed is the courage to face the anger, and accept it, learn from it.

You (as a team) have done so admirably at points in this, and not so admirably at others. And, overall, better than in the past.

But the very LAST thing you want to do, is to get angry with the customer reaction. As you did here, a bit.

Even if you can't help think and feel it -- you're human! -- don't say it.

And fix the @#$% forum software!
RasKarpas
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#216 - 2012-06-06 07:22:21 UTC  |  Edited by: RasKarpas
CCP Goliath wrote:

I don't have an issue with complaints, I have an issue with the manner of complaining.


You are right. The manner of complaining is quite important - if you intend your complaint being heard and understood, that is.
Well allow me to complain some then.

In my mind, i divide the complains into two categories:
- Complaints about design and usability
- Bugs

I will discard the bugs category as .... well as bugs. You have your set of design requirements, and I have little doubt that those features that do not work as you have it intended - will be fixed. You know what? I don't have doubt at all. Because when you will see that the performance is not up to design - you will retroactively change the design requirements - no discrepancies - no bugs. It's not something to take pride in, but that's how's life working in this business, and anyone who doesn't understand that is just naive.

The complaints against design and matters of usability, on the other hand, are not that easily handled with, and in my opinion you have failed in this area.
Being no recognized expert in UI design and usability, i have enough expertise to see that you have not done your job properly during the design, design review and process validation phases. Saying you, I obviously don't mean you personally, rather than the key function holders in the company you work for.
Increasing the number of operations needed to complete an action ... I can't see how that was missed during the development of this feature. And that is a rather objective criteria of UI performance - see, i will not even address more subjective ones. Time consumption to perform an action, that is another criteria. Failing to perform an action with minimal numbers of operations - we can argue about whether it is subjective or objective.. I believe that is a metric regarding the (non) intuitive nature of the UI. These are bad. Bad bad bad feedback coming from consumer.
I know this, because of inside experience with products that fail with UI design.

/Captain Obvious mode on
You sell a product which is not very expensive to each consumer and your goal is address as many as you can.
People raging about canceling subscription on forums, m'kay, will most likely not really do that - they rage because the love the game, and for majority of them - they will prefer to adapt rather than quit.
This will build a picture for CCP that they can fail with such matters, deny the fails and still not loose the customers.
/Captain Obvious mode off

And that is a true picture, i believe. Until. Until you hit a streak of fails that will chase the players away ... Please don't do that.

If you were producing an expensive product, addressing a smaller group of consumers - such a fail with UI and fail with recognizing the fail - would have hit your pockets hard. If you had worthy competitors - you would be doing them a great favor by treating customer "upraising" like this.

If a customer complains about UI design - re-think the UI design. It costs money - but it's your obligation to the customer to provide a good UI and good usability. I don't use orcas, rarely use POSs - i use very basic features of the station and ship containers. AND IT'S NOT GOOD AS IT IS RIGHT NOW
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#217 - 2012-06-06 08:10:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Dream Five
ok.. my final conclusion is this new UI is total junk. its definitely much worse than it was before in every single aspect.
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
Goonswarm Federation
#218 - 2012-06-06 08:40:35 UTC
Locii wrote:
Quote:
Following that, our next update will come with a main release on June 19, which should see a lot more of your feedback incorporated



so what feedback are you acting on?

as tbh
id love to see the return of right click shortcuts.
id love to see the return of corp hanger tabs
id love to see the return of short cuts to certain hangers
id love to be able to just click things agian, screw shift click.

and any of the other basic functionality you have removed with this UI thing you have made us beta test for months



im back mr soundwave yay.

you seam to be skimming round these points, this is what the bulk of players i speak to would like to see back. as someone who runs 2 corps, 1 inside a mega block, i speak to a lot of people and these 4 things is what we would like to see. 4 things

so mr soundwave and the QA dev guy, how hard is it going to be for you to get these 4 things back?

OMG when can i get a pic here

disasteur
disasterous industries
#219 - 2012-06-06 08:48:46 UTC
Smoking Blunts wrote:
Locii wrote:
Quote:
Following that, our next update will come with a main release on June 19, which should see a lot more of your feedback incorporated



so what feedback are you acting on?

as tbh
id love to see the return of right click shortcuts.
id love to see the return of corp hanger tabs
id love to see the return of short cuts to certain hangers
id love to be able to just click things agian, screw shift click.

and any of the other basic functionality you have removed with this UI thing you have made us beta test for months



im back mr soundwave yay.

you seam to be skimming round these points, this is what the bulk of players i speak to would like to see back. as someone who runs 2 corps, 1 inside a mega block, i speak to a lot of people and these 4 things is what we would like to see. 4 things

so mr soundwave and the QA dev guy, how hard is it going to be for you to get these 4 things back?


eve looks like a new bike i am gonna buy... i just hope the manufacturer doesnt come along and say i would have more fun with it with square wheels under it
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#220 - 2012-06-06 08:55:48 UTC
It's too late to go back now and I dont want to blaim people, but the new focus on getting stuff done really screws the quality...
I still can't access my corp hangar items because they are in audit containers and the interface still lacks a lot of things. Perhaps the Quality Management should implement further steps in their approval process?

We players love new features and new things and I love the spirit of all these new teams working overtime to please us, but it is also important to make sure new stuff has very few defects and doesn't go out limited compared to where Eve comes from.

When I want to drag stuff from my hangar to the cargo of my 1 active ship out of 100 I click I first find my hangar in the tree. Then I click the module I want moved and try to drag it over to the tree, however the tree doesn't scroll up so I can find my active ship :-(
Then I have to release the module in my hangar, find a way to open a second window and start over.

I just hope you get the bugs fixed fast and figure out to implemet an easy way to maneuver through the system.

  1. How about having the tree scroll up/down when dragging modules and hovering on top or bottom of the tree?
  2. How about having multiple tabs on top of the window (like we had with old corp hangars or the chat system) with hangar, ship cargo as default tabs?
  3. How about you give your teams longer and more realistic deadlines for new features or implement extra steps of quality control. Having stuff on SiSi for a few days without time to really change stuff if necesary makes players frustrated as it might have you look arrogant.

Good work so far - Now plz get working on fixing them bugs you created :-)

Pinky