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why don't minerbears just fly with logi?
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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#161 - 2012-05-31 12:24:36 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Sarah Schneider wrote:
Could someone explain to me the "mine in group" thing? I don't do suicide gank much so i probably have no idea, but what's the point? is it so that miners can go on and PANIC together with a bunch of other miners instead of PANIC-ing alone?

alot easier to watch for hostiles with more eyes, sharing of bonuses(did you know that hulks can benefit from pvp fleet bonuses?), mutual support, and I understand that your per person profit margins go up higher the more people are involved, but I have not seen the math on the last one.

Edit: Oh, and with enough of them, the combined droneswarm has a staggering amount of firepower, and should be able to deal with any threat that doesn't alpha someone before anyone dies.
…also, as someone pointed out in one of these threads, a school of Hulks can spider-web (hah!) each other and mine aligned while floating along at a mere 25m/s — at that pace, it'll take you 20 minutes to fly out of range of your strip miners (and by then, the rock should be gone, your cargo hold should be full, and you should have moved on to the next asteroid anyway).


Hate to correct you, but since (AFAIK) I came up with it, it's 7m/s. Triple web and all that bother.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#162 - 2012-05-31 12:26:16 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Tippia wrote:
…except for repping, of course, since you can't alpha a properly fitted Hulk without being very lucky or using more tornadoes than is profitable. So the latter isn't likely to happen, and in the former case, a Basilisk can quite easily recover the damage dealt by one (or even two) Tornadoes.


We need a proof that Basilisk can rep Hulk's shields after 5-6 Tornado volleys.

There's time for 2 volleys per Tornado in 0.5. Three volleys if you know what you're doing.


Yep there is. The Rokh (cheaper and better than a Basi) will rep the Hulks shields back to full well before the 13s cycle time of the Nado's arties.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#163 - 2012-05-31 12:26:52 UTC
I think the post he means is Ranger1, which was 11m/s with meta webs, max yield, and no tank on a hulk.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#164 - 2012-05-31 12:26:56 UTC
What *is* true is that it is impossible to defend a mining fleet, as Jester pointed out in a blog a while ago: If you have a fleet of 10 Hulks and escort them with 20 battlecruisers, even an inferior force with 10 BCs can just murder the super-expensive hulks and then all die to the "protectors" and they still win the ISK-war big time.

Since CCP is in the mood to add new modules, how about this one: An 'invulnerability sphere' module that creates an indestructible bubble for a certain amount of time, maybe one minute or three. But it also renders you completely immobile and doesn't prevent being shot at so that you have aggression and can't safely log off.

This way miners could gain a window of time for their friends to fend of the attack. But it wouldn't help the whiner miners who just refuse to sacrifice yield for survivability. If you don't defend yourself, you'd just gain a few minutes of sitting paralyzed and getting mocked by the attacker/ganker before getting blown up anyway.

The module should be restricted to ships without any offensive capabilities, i.e. prevent fitting/use of weapons, scrams, webs etc. and also of command links.

.
Xhaiden Ora
Doomheim
#165 - 2012-05-31 12:27:07 UTC
The Logi would have to be able to dive in front of the Hulk in slow motion yelling "noooOOOOOOO-" for this to work.

Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#166 - 2012-05-31 12:27:34 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Why would he wait 5-6 volleys?

He has 6 reppers, stagger the start 1 second apart, and suddenly his target becomes immune to any death other than an alpha strike.


1400 volley is around 6000 if you're unlucky. 6 Tornadoes.

6 x 6000 = 36000

Time it right and there's not enough time to rep that Hulk.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#167 - 2012-05-31 12:29:32 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
I think the post he means is Ranger1, which was 11m/s with meta webs, max yield, and no tank on a hulk.


Then we both came up with the idea. Meta-4 Webs, 2 MLUIIs and 2 cargo rigs to slow you down more gets you down to 7 or 9. Maybe 7 was if you used a CPU rig to fit a 4th Web.

No, 7m/s was the 75% full align speed from 10m/s

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#168 - 2012-05-31 12:29:55 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Why would he wait 5-6 volleys?

He has 6 reppers, stagger the start 1 second apart, and suddenly his target becomes immune to any death other than an alpha strike.


1400 volley is around 6000 if you're unlucky. 6 Tornadoes.

6 x 6000 = 36000

Time it right and there's not enough time to rep that Hulk.

Yes, this is true.

But there is 0 profit in that, a huge isk loss, actually. Even if it is being done just for the tears, no one can keep that kind of outlay up indefinitely.

Not even Goons.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#169 - 2012-05-31 12:31:31 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Why would he wait 5-6 volleys?

He has 6 reppers, stagger the start 1 second apart, and suddenly his target becomes immune to any death other than an alpha strike.


1400 volley is around 6000 if you're unlucky. 6 Tornadoes.

6 x 6000 = 36000

Time it right and there's not enough time to rep that Hulk.


Ok, 6 tornados.
Each Tornado costs 70m Isk. The cost to gank with 6 Tornadoes is 380m Isk. A Hulk costs less than that, and drops spectacularly less than that.

We never said repping would make a Hulk immune from ganks. Just immune to profitable ones.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
DeBingJos
Undignified Herbal Infusion
#170 - 2012-05-31 12:31:49 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Why would he wait 5-6 volleys?

He has 6 reppers, stagger the start 1 second apart, and suddenly his target becomes immune to any death other than an alpha strike.


1400 volley is around 6000 if you're unlucky. 6 Tornadoes.

6 x 6000 = 36000

Time it right and there's not enough time to rep that Hulk.


6 tornadoes vs 1 hulk? Somehow I don't think this is the norm...

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#171 - 2012-05-31 12:32:40 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
What *is* true is that it is impossible to defend a mining fleet, as Jester pointed out in a blog a while ago: If you have a fleet of 10 Hulks and escort them with 20 battlecruisers, even an inferior force with 10 BCs can just murder the super-expensive hulks and then all die to the "protectors" and they still win the ISK-war big time.

Since CCP is in the mood to add new modules, how about this one: An 'invulnerability sphere' module that creates an indestructible bubble for a certain amount of time, maybe one minute or three. But it also renders you completely immobile and doesn't prevent being shot at so that you have aggression and can't safely log off.

This way miners could gain a window of time for their friends to fend of the attack. But it wouldn't help the whiner miners who just refuse to sacrifice yield for survivability. If you don't defend yourself, you'd just gain a few minutes of sitting paralyzed and getting mocked by the attacker/ganker before getting blown up anyway.

The module should be restricted to ships without any offensive capabilities, i.e. prevent fitting/use of weapons, scrams, webs etc. and also of command links.


Only if shooting at people in the sphere doesn't invite CONCORD.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#172 - 2012-05-31 12:34:03 UTC
this thread was supposed to die on the second post

why are you keeping it alive?

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#173 - 2012-05-31 12:36:02 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
how about this one: An 'invulnerability sphere' module that creates an indestructible bubble for a certain amount of time...

We like to call them POSes

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#174 - 2012-05-31 12:37:03 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
What did these miners do?


I don't know. Maybe they mined in nullsec. Nullsec just doesn't work the way you think. You can't just go there and mine/rat in complete safety.


Yeah, you can if you have half... a quarter of a brain.

10 Join Renter Corp
20 Warp to Hidden Belt
30 Watch Local
40 Mine
50 IF Neut in Local, GOTO 60, ELSE GOTO 30
60 Warp to POS
70 GOTO 50
80 PROFIT

^^^ How to mine in 0.0 with insignificant risk.

logical error: you will mine only first iteration. And you will not detect new neutrals in local.

Need to fix line 70: GOTO 30

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#175 - 2012-05-31 12:38:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
We need a proof that Basilisk can rep Hulk's shields after 5-6 Tornado volleys.

There's time for 2 volleys per Tornado in 0.5. Three volleys if you know what you're doing.
It takes, what… 13 seconds between volleys? Each volley delivers ~11k damage. In 13 seconds, a Basilisk can repair nearly 30k EHP. The buffer on the Hulk will limit this, of course… so:

T=0, 2 volleys, 22k EHP gone, most likely taking out all shield (18k:ish) and all armour (3k:ish).
T=1–13, repping back 18k EHP shields.
T=13, 2 volleys, 22k EHP gone, once again taking out all shields, nibbling away on structure.
T=14–26, repping back 18k EHP shields.
T=26, 2 volleys, 22k EHP gone, once again taking out all shields, nibbling away on structure.

…and while we wait for the next volley, CONCORD has had all the time they need and the shield is back up to maximum again.

That's with a hulk with 80+ resists (~18k shield EHP, ~3k armour EHP, ~8k EHP structure) against RF EMP-loaded 1400mm II:s. We're also assuming the two Tornadoes sync up their volleys properly — the more offset they are, the more that 30k rep ability is actually having an effect (and that's just with 4 shield transfers). At maximum offset, they will never even be able to get the shields below 20%.

RubyPorto wrote:
Hate to correct you, but since (AFAIK) I came up with it, it's 7m/s. Triple web and all that bother.
With tripple-web, sure. It's 25:ish m/s if it's just a single web per Hulk, which seems more sensible (because you probably want a bit of tank as well to soak up slow fingers).
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#176 - 2012-05-31 12:40:01 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
What did these miners do?


I don't know. Maybe they mined in nullsec. Nullsec just doesn't work the way you think. You can't just go there and mine/rat in complete safety.


Yeah, you can if you have half... a quarter of a brain.

10 Join Renter Corp
20 Warp to Hidden Belt
30 Watch Local
40 Mine
50 IF Neut in Local, GOTO 60, ELSE GOTO 30
60 Warp to POS
70 GOTO 50
80 PROFIT

^^^ How to mine in 0.0 with insignificant risk.

logical error: you will mine only first iteration. And you will not detect new neutrals in local.

Need to fix line 70: GOTO 30


Whoops. Well, close enough.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#177 - 2012-05-31 12:44:19 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
We need a proof that Basilisk can rep Hulk's shields after 5-6 Tornado volleys.

There's time for 2 volleys per Tornado in 0.5. Three volleys if you know what you're doing.
It takes, what… 13 seconds between volleys? Each volley delivers ~11k damage. In 13 seconds, a Basilisk can repair nearly 30k EHP. The buffer on the Hulk will limit this, of course… so:

T=0, 2 volleys, 22k EHP gone, most likely taking out all shield (18k:ish) and all armour (3k:ish).
T=1–13, repping back 18k EHP shields.
T=13, 2 volleys, 22k EHP gone, once again taking out all shields, nibbling away on structure.
T=14–26, repping back 18k EHP shields.
T=26, 2 volleys, 22k EHP gone, once again taking out all shields, nibbling away on structure.

…and while we wait for the next volley, CONCORD has had all the time they need and the shield is back up to maximum again.

That's with a hulk with 80+ resists (~18k shield EHP, ~3k armour EHP, ~8k EHP structure) against RF EMP-loaded 1400mm II:s. We're also assuming the two Tornadoes sync up their volleys properly — the more offset they are, the more that 30k rep ability is actually having an effect (and that's just with 4 shield transfers).


The more shield transfers you're running, the closer you can stagger them to increase the likelyhood that one will land between the volleys of different hostile ships.

Quote:

RubyPorto wrote:
Hate to correct you, but since (AFAIK) I came up with it, it's 7m/s. Triple web and all that bother.
With tripple-web, sure. It's 25:ish m/s if it's just a single web per Hulk, which seems more sensible (because you probably want a bit of tank as well to soak up slow fingers).


I assume that if you're taking damage, you're going to be scrammed as well. But since you're aligned, you have the time that they spend on grid dropping out of warp plus their lock time, so you do have some time buffer.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#178 - 2012-05-31 12:44:21 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
What *is* true is that it is impossible to defend a mining fleet, as Jester pointed out in a blog a while ago: If you have a fleet of 10 Hulks and escort them with 20 battlecruisers, even an inferior force with 10 BCs can just murder the super-expensive hulks and then all die to the "protectors" and they still win the ISK-war big time.
That will depend on how many Hulks they can kill per attack. If it's just one or two, the attackers are coming out a long way behind as far as ISK goes.

At that point, you're blowing 500–1,000M ISK in BCs to kill half that in Hulks.
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#179 - 2012-05-31 12:44:21 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:


Only if shooting at people in the sphere doesn't invite CONCORD.

Good point. Shooting at it should probably not even be neccessary, just activating it should trigger aggression from... something.

The proposal would make ganking miners in null or wh space harder too, but I could see it actually leading to better fights. When I find a Hulk in w-space and force it to trigger the sphere, the probability that someone will come with combat ships to defend it is quite high. Much higher than that people will engage and try to take revenge for a lost Hulk after the fact. Ganking Hulks is all good and well, but I think most of us prefer to fight some defenders first and *then* gank the Hulk Cool

.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#180 - 2012-05-31 12:45:35 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Ok, 6 tornados.
Each Tornado costs 70m Isk. The cost to gank with 6 Tornadoes is 380m Isk. A Hulk costs less than that, and drops spectacularly less than that.

We never said repping would make a Hulk immune from ganks. Just immune to profitable ones.


I didn't believe someone would smartbomb ice mining fleet before someone actually did it. It just felt really stupid idea.
Then someone did it and it still felt really stupid idea. Some people just have too much money.