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Warfare & Tactics

 
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First Impression of Faction Warfare -- post inferno patch

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Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#181 - 2012-05-30 13:28:56 UTC
Lock out wrote:
I assumed we all know by now that eve is far from what you can call "a game for casual players ?"

Also, you can't realistically expect to be rewarded for not playing. While other games reward you for playing with XP , Eve (on the pvp side at least) rewards you with quantity and/or quality of kills. If you are expecting to play 8 hrs/week and get the same results or benefits as the guy playing 8 hrs/day, then you are in for dissapointment.

Yes, FW was designed for casuals, it didn't work because, well ...casuals aren't active enough to provide a good environment, so CCP redesigned it. We like it or not, we have to deal with it, they are not gonna scrap all their investment in developement time/money. Hell, they are not even giving up on that crap inventory because they put development time in to it, allthough that's a far more obvious fiasco.


TL;DR We play the cards we are dealt . CCP dealt some cards, we can either play them or fold and leave the table.


Or we can give feedback like they asked us to.

The problem with faction war was not that it was designed for casuals. It was that it was abandoned with bugs, had absolutely no backgroud context, or consequences, and the occupancy war was a pve game.

Now they added consequences which everyone is happy for.

However they don't need to add consequences that make the game less playable for casuals - like the station lock out. This wasn't asked for by the community and no one is forcing CCP to drive out casual players by doing this. They are choosing to do this. If they want eve to remain a game that only people huge amounts of spare time should even consider installing that is their option. But it shouldn't be a surprise why more people don't really care for it.

They really haven't done anything to make occupancy less of a pve game. In fact with station lock outs you are now even better off in a pve ship doing plexes and running every time you see a wt come. You can't repair the damage without a repper. You probably want to fit a cloak, so you can "dock" in a safe spot, and probably want to fly a smaller ship so you can get past gate camps.

All of this makes it less likely you will stay and fight if wts come.






Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#182 - 2012-05-30 14:01:04 UTC
There may be VERY MINOR inconviences for the casual pvp'er and the low sec station camper, but the benefits to everybody else (MASSIVE AMOUNTS of PVP) has been well worth it, IMO.

Sorry you guys had to take it on the chin. Hopefully CCP will implement a "kill all rats in plexes" requirement so you won't be able to complain about Occupancy Warfare any longer (not that you ever participated in it anyways) either.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#183 - 2012-05-30 14:01:15 UTC
Cearain wrote:
.....Or we can give feedback like they asked us to.....

What makes you think it will make a difference this time around? We have been feeding them "live data" since Empyrean Age was launched and have prior to this fiasco had negligible improvements made.
They claim that all is well and they are focusing on spaceships again .. but what good does that do when fixing what has grown into a fairly large niche "end-game" with no clue as to how it works (when it works) and what makes the participants tick?

They dropped the ball years ago and in their fervour to make amends after the ridiculous Jita-statue emo-rage debacle picked up the nearest ball-shaped item and ran with it .. problem is that item was giant round'ish turd.
Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#184 - 2012-05-30 14:10:54 UTC
In the current landscape, if you are too casual to risk basing out of saht/kam because you don't think we can hold them, base out of Egg, plex/mission/pvp behind the enemy lines and enjoy your couple of hours here and there.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#185 - 2012-05-30 17:34:55 UTC
Har Harrison wrote:
In the current landscape, if you are too casual to risk basing out of saht/kam because you don't think we can hold them, base out of Egg, plex/mission/pvp behind the enemy lines and enjoy your couple of hours here and there.



I think you can hold them.

There is no reason for the minmatar to take them. They already have more than enough systems to have a level 5 lp store to cash out their lp. If they haven't done that already, it is just due to a shortage minimal organization and or math skills.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#186 - 2012-05-30 17:45:51 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
There may be VERY MINOR inconviences for the casual pvp'er and the low sec station camper, but the benefits to everybody else (MASSIVE AMOUNTS of PVP) has been well worth it, IMO.

Sorry you guys had to take it on the chin. Hopefully CCP will implement a "kill all rats in plexes" requirement so you won't be able to complain about Occupancy Warfare any longer (not that you ever participated in it anyways) either.



There were so many changes it is hard to know what caused what.

I am for one am very happy about changes that allow us to have economic consequences and lp for plexing. I also like the whole investment in systems. The new interface is much better than the old map with blurry bubbles.

So there are allot of changes. However there is primarilly one change that makes this expansion bad for casual players. That is the station lock out. It also has reduced the amount of pvp we see because systems are "too isolated" to even be fought over e.g., raa.

In sum your post is another one of this arguement:

Permise 1: CCP made 15 different changes to faction war.

Premise 2: PVP and plexing has increased.

Conclusion: Therefore each and every one of the 15 changes was good and none of them could be bad.



While I agree that premise 1 and 2 are true the logic is horrible.


This is why the idea of lets "wait and see" what happens is illogical. The data won't answer what changes are causeing which results because there are simply too many changes at once. They are essentially confounding variables.



Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#187 - 2012-05-30 17:53:48 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Cearain wrote:
.....Or we can give feedback like they asked us to.....

What makes you think it will make a difference this time around? We have been feeding them "live data" since Empyrean Age was launched and have prior to this fiasco had negligible improvements made.
They claim that all is well and they are focusing on spaceships again .. but what good does that do when fixing what has grown into a fairly large niche "end-game" with no clue as to how it works (when it works) and what makes the participants tick?

They dropped the ball years ago and in their fervour to make amends after the ridiculous Jita-statue emo-rage debacle picked up the nearest ball-shaped item and ran with it .. problem is that item was giant round'ish turd.



What I find interesting in listening to one of the devs is that they seem to see High sec on one end of a spectrum and null sec on the other and faction war/low sec somewhere in between. This is very odd thinking but it explains why they are forcing null sec mechanics like lock outs on us. Low sec and faction war should not be viewed as something between these two ways of playing at all.

Low sec and faction war has nothing to do with high sec. If anything null sec carebears/miners have allot more in common with high sec life than low sec. Look at how much they complain about cloaking alts. Low sec has so much traffic it is crazy to think anyone would complain about that.

But whatever. They implemented this station lockout and said they will reevaluate it later. I just want to know what criteria they will use to evaluate it. It seems to me there were so many changes to faction war that it will be impossible to tell what is causing what in any rational way.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#188 - 2012-05-30 18:55:57 UTC
Cearain wrote:

But whatever. They implemented this station lockout and said they will reevaluate it later. I just want to know what criteria they will use to evaluate it. It seems to me there were so many changes to faction war that it will be impossible to tell what is causing what in any rational way.



its okay because Hans is FW and he understand both sides plight and will raise these issues as ness.... you know what i cant even continue to type that sarcastic comment..........

Why oh why did ccp impliment all these changes and NOT leave out station lockouts.

CCP could have left the lock out thing for a later patch and evaluate how the wars are going with the sov/plex changes before forcing everyone to deal with it all at once, its not ccps style at all and well, everyones seeing the knock on effects, i just hope they realise and make joining the losers attractive in a way that creates more accessable and sustainable pvp - like veryones wants.

Lets not mess about here. fw is about pvping for "RP" which has no quota for qualifying, you join up you shoot, player or corp its not complicated - or it wasnt.

to me it seems pretty insane to think that to take part in fw you need to base out of non fw systems, you cant fight a null sec war from high sec and even if you did you can just remove pos and ihubs and take a system no plexes at all. who the heck thought this would be a good idea for easy come easy go low sec dwellers.

If the systems and numbers were balenced then it might make more sense - it does not.

Perhaps ccp thinks that if the 'losers' DIAF that the LP will shoot up in value due to navy ship starvation, well news flash, high sec missions, the only people able to cash in when that happens are not even in fw and the ones that are wont be making the LP wihtout avoiding pvp to save isk.

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
Raukhur
NorthMount
#189 - 2012-05-30 19:01:45 UTC
Vordak Kallager wrote:
[quote=Tekitha]

I think a lot of the "giant blob on the warp-in" problem could be solved if there were multiple entrances to a single plex deadspace zone. I'm not sure how giant of a coding task this would be, but I think it would make Plex fighting a LOT more interesting. vOv


Why not just have one warp in at say 70km spherical random direction around the compound
Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#190 - 2012-05-31 03:41:37 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Har Harrison wrote:
In the current landscape, if you are too casual to risk basing out of saht/kam because you don't think we can hold them, base out of Egg, plex/mission/pvp behind the enemy lines and enjoy your couple of hours here and there.



I think you can hold them.

There is no reason for the minmatar to take them. They already have more than enough systems to have a level 5 lp store to cash out their lp. If they haven't done that already, it is just due to a shortage minimal organization and or math skills.

Whilst I will happily debate how stupid minmitards are etc..., they have upgraded enough systems to get maximum LP store rewards.

However you assumptions are incorrect. They aren't hitting us just to get LP. Some farmers might be, but alot of them are doing it because

1) they get some fights
2) they can
3) they want e-peen and bragging rights and to be able to say that they smashed the Amarr militia so bad that they could only base out of high sec or non-FW low sec.

If you think plexing is a pve activity in the new expansion, you are either doing it wrong or in the wrong location. If you don't want to or are unable to do it in the systems around saht and kamela, you have to accept there will be less fights UNTIL SUCH TIME AS YOU MAKE THE MINMITAR REACT TO YOU. Plex Auga and surrounding systems and make them come de-contest. Because if they don't, I guarantee you will see one of the largest Amarr vs Minmitar fleet battles you have seen in a long time on the i-Hub for the system that they ignored, alowing us to get it to 100% contested.

Finally, notifications from the system that a plex has been opened kind of removes the ability to do behind enemy lines activities. Either tell them in local you are there or accept you got some LP for 10 minutes work and did your bit to help us. Sending out a ping of "I am here" every time a plex is popped/entered will only bring a blob down on you which you will then complain about due to not being able to get "good fights" and 1v1s etc... The ability for us to plex without the minmitar knowing we are there in backwater systems (due to the number of systems they hold vs our relatively few) is one of the few "advantages" we currently have. Don't ask for it to be taken away.
Duke Dantez
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#191 - 2012-05-31 09:12:51 UTC
Muad 'dib wrote:
stuff complaining about station lock out.


Station lock out is absolutely critical to maintain the current state of constant pvp that is going on in FW. Right now Lamaa is averaging around 70% contested and I would assume that it will take a great effort for us in the Minmitar militia to hold onto it.


If you want your precious Auga back then you need to fight for it.

War has always been about controlling land. Faction Warfare began on May 22 2012. And it's here to stay.
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#192 - 2012-05-31 09:33:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Muad 'dib
pretty sure there was constant pvp before - or my corp of 30 active players wouldnt have got 16,000 kills in a year and a half.....

i never said its impossible to get pvp or to make isk, or that i wont be trying to kick minnie in the stones where ever possible, i said that its a total ball ache now and suddenly 0.0 looks really temping again or general piracy. Alot to do with the logistical problems since the patch and secondly the huge drop in isk income to pvp with.

Id like to see some stats from ccp before and after the patch that would be really interesting to know - including the number of active pvpers and plex takers. I forget who the CCP stat guy was at fanfest but if you are listening, please whip us up some numbers after the patch has been out for a month.

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
Jones Bones
Battle Toad Brigade
Ribbit.
#193 - 2012-05-31 10:50:26 UTC
Muad I can tell you right now there's more daily kills than a few months ago. CCP is not going to roll back any of these changes man, so accept them. If you want to post some ideas than use the CSM section of the forums and hope they get looked at for the Fall/Winter patches. Not a single thing is going to change this summer.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#194 - 2012-05-31 11:01:43 UTC
http://api.eve-online.com/eve/FacWarTopStats.xml.aspx
Yes, web page is crap.

The thing to note, however, is that daily kills is on average near 1100 kills/day after the patch. Before path it was near 220 kills/day.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#195 - 2012-05-31 12:55:08 UTC
Post patch activity is always extremely high and can't be used as a data-point. Hell, you probably have people re-subbing to check things out .. do a data check in a few months time and see what that gets you.

Also need to check quality of kills, if those 220/day were all Cynas/BCs/Whatnot and the 1100 are stabbed frigates ... it is something CCP doesn't fathom, metrics cannot be used as definitive anything but merely as indicators whenever human nature crosses paths with the subject being polled.

Now if only they had a metric called "Funzor" .. now that I could use straight up Smile
Lock out
Shadows Of The Federation
#196 - 2012-05-31 13:09:10 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:


Also need to check quality of kills, if those 220/day were all Cynas/BCs/Whatnot and the 1100 are stabbed frigates




Inb4 someone jumps in to tell us every fight is special and killing t1 frigates is just as much fun as killing cynabals Big smile
Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#197 - 2012-05-31 13:26:08 UTC
I've been involved in a few t2/t3 kills, not to mention to odd SFI and Assault Frigs, not to mention various regular BC/cruisers, so pretty sure we aren't seeing JUST t1 stabbed frigs..
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#198 - 2012-05-31 13:28:00 UTC
The mark of a great corporation is the ability to omgwtfpwn his enemy in whatever ship his enemy decides to fly. Big smile SoTF is definitely there.

Anyways, 4-5x increase in kills is a bit too much to ignore. You bittervets can whine about post patch this, cynabal that, etc... we'll just keep killing stuff. Anybody else that is interested in killing stuff might want to think about getting into FW as well.
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#199 - 2012-05-31 13:43:32 UTC
Lets just see how those numbers change over the next few weeks once the hype dies down and the isk and stocked ships dips.

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
LooknSee
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#200 - 2012-05-31 14:15:16 UTC
I see before me many who have been in Amarr militia/FW for a long time QQing. This is the anticipated behavior of the nameless human animal subspecies incapable of adapting to change. Their sole hope for their future viability is to whine.whine.whine that the Gods might once again restore the conditions that led to their success--or what passed for success--in the first place.

Whine away little creatures.

Your time is at an end.

The new order is upon us: Out with the old, in with the strong.

In colloquial terms: I think some people are just upset that they can no longer safely camp enemy stations and dock upon demand.