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New inventory system > honest opinion and feedback.

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Genoir
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#101 - 2012-05-23 14:52:20 UTC
Bits I like.

'estimated value' of inventory box you're currently on
'filtering' it does counter some of the issues
'the look' it looks fantastic to the eye.

Bits I don't like

looting, makes life difficult
Pos control, why oh why oh why was this not considered
Having to keep my wits about me while even in station opening a container, or having to start the action all over again.

What I'd like to see

tick box to either use the old system, or a simple box to tell the new inventory to open all clicks in a new window.
estimated value of other peoples cargo in space when using cargo scanners (3 guesses why)
This new lag I'm experiencing since yesterday, get rid of it.
Jiska Ensa
Estrale Frontiers
#102 - 2012-05-23 14:52:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Jiska Ensa
For the love of god please give the option to use the old system. It just took me three times as long to loot a field of wrecks because every time I opened a wreck it opened that damned unified inventory thing. And as soon as I hit "loot-all" it opened my cargo bay (which took forever because it's now full of un-stacked junk...something else you need to fix). Shift-click creates a new window for THAT wreck, which is fine except I only need to open a wreck once. Subsequent wrecks open in the main window.

Please either revert to the old system, give an option to use the old system, or make it that all inventory of a TYPE stay as separate when you shift-click (wrecks, cargobays, drone-bays, cans, pos hangers, etc)

oh, and while you're at it, please group all similar pos mods and only load them when requested, not whenever I try to open a SMA...

kthxbai.

Edit: 12 effing seconds to open my cargobay? Just because my ship is parked in a POS bubble?

PPS: Why on earth are modules of pos's that don't even belong to my corporation visible in the tree?
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#103 - 2012-05-23 14:52:51 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Dev blog coming shortly.


I'd like to emphasize that the major issue people are having the inability to have the "quick" ways to get where they wanted to get to where as now they have to dig through the list menu to get to where they want to get to go, as as shift click isn't intuitive for the average user.

Give us a quick way to get to inventory locations that matter to us, and put right click shortcuts back for capital ships (fuel bay, drone bay, etc.)

Where I am.
Varesk
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#104 - 2012-05-23 14:53:42 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Cord Binchiette wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Quick update to the inventory stuff:

We created a list of changes we'd like to make yesterday. Today we're going through it and planning when to do what....


I have a better idea. Why not make a list of OUR requested changes?



If it wasn't clear, the list we're compiling is changes requested by the playerbase.



CCP not listening to players feedback, deploying bugged and broke "FEATURE", then trying to fix with blog and promised patch that will be deployed 2 weeks before next "expansion".
disasteur
disasterous industries
#105 - 2012-05-23 14:54:53 UTC
Pinstar Colton wrote:
My initial impression was very negative. The change was jarring and unintuitive.
I'm not saying that the system is better or worse than the old UI... I simply don't know enough about the new UI to form a proper opinion.

I think that was CCP's fundamental problem. There was no formal tutorial, instruction manual or guide on using the new UI.

Think of it like scanning or PI. Both of those activities don't have the most intuitive UI, and take some learning to get used to. In response, CCP created two very well made tutorial videos that show you how to scan and get your feet wet in PI.

The reason why this new UI is so hated is that it comes across as a complicated process akin to PI and Scanning. Unlike PI and scanning, people who are too lazy to learn about them can't simply ignore the UI and do something else the way they can with PI and Scanning. EVERYONE depends on the UI for everything they do.

Yet there is no clear official guide (or if there is one, it is not in a readily visible place) or video.

What CCP really needed to do is release a tutorial guide/video while the UI was still on SISI to explain it and compare it to the current UI.
"To access your corp hanger, you used to do X [Screenshot] but you now do Y [Screenshot]"
And then provide instructions on how to go on to SISI for players who normally don't touch the test server so they can try them out if they wish to.

If the transition was not so jarring, people might actually take the time to explore the new UI and find new benefits that might be helpful rather than hunkering down and clinging to their opinion that the entire new UI is trash and to the hope that they might get their old UI back if enough people complain loudly enough long enough.



if something as simple as stationhangars/corphangars, ships cargohangar or what ever, is so difficult or timeconsuming, that it needs a tutorial, wouldnt that be just a little over the top?

ok new dev blog about it will start soon, but what then? why dont they just listen to all the complaints and reasons why this is just a bad move, most of us need the speed like before
Dheeradj Nurgle
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#106 - 2012-05-23 14:55:06 UTC
I actually like it. Small bugs aside.

Although, it's kinda hell to manage a station with 50+ ships, but It's something that we need to get used to.

Also, filters <3
Madner Kami
Durendal Ascending
#107 - 2012-05-23 15:01:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Madner Kami
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Quick update to the inventory stuff:

We created a list of changes we'd like to make yesterday. Today we're going through it and planning when to do what. I'll post it up later today so you guys can see the changes.


Please make it a requirement for every Dev involved, to read Tippia's blogpost on that matter and watch the video. It clears up a lot of the problems people are having with the new UI. And keep in mind, that the issues he raises are getting worse the more containers you have to manage (POS).

http://blog.beyondreality.se/shift-click-does-nothing

CCP Soundwave wrote:
One of the changes I'm mulling over two different options and I'd really like your feedback on it. Specifically, it's the POSs showing all the inventories you can interact with:

Solution one: All POS inventories are treated as wrecks. You fly to them, open them and they're put in your inventory with a little "x" next to them so you can remove them once you've used them.

Solution two: All POS inventories are put in to trees, so you can open/close whatever subsection of inventories you're currently interacting with.


Both, really. I want Solution One for every type of can (jetcan, wrecks, cargo containers of all sizes and variants) and the later for any other cargohold container. And apply that outside of POSes and in stations, too. Having to tread through 20+cans in your Orca when trying to transport stuff into the cans from an array or into a POS array from the cans is a pita atm, because you have no way of indicating which can already contains what it's supposed to have (or not, for that matter). With the earlier system, I just opened the can in a tab or closed it and was done with it, now it clutters up the screen no matter if I want to do something with it or not.

P.S.: Read Tippia's blogpost.
P.P.S.: Make all POS modules nameable (Silos, Reactors, Corp Hangars, guns [...]) and make sure the treeview accounts for the name in the list's ordering
P.P.P.S.: Read Tippia's blogpost.
[...]
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#108 - 2012-05-23 15:01:53 UTC
Don't like it, but can live with it.

Specific complaint:
Looting multiple cannisters takes much more time.

Before:
Open all cannisters. Click 'loot all' button, cannister vanishes, to show next cannister. I could clean out twenty cannisters faster than you took to read this sentence.

Now:
Open one canister. Loot. Open next cannister. Loot. Repeat until done. Time elapsed it roughly three times as long as previously.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc
Ad'Hakim Tahous
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#109 - 2012-05-23 15:02:43 UTC
Jajas Helper wrote:
can i ask you to: Buy 40+ ships , add 20 + containers and buy a corp office and then add containers and ships in those aswell. See how you like this new unified window then...

or **** around with industry in a pos with 20-30 manufactering arrays and 100 defence mods ( guns)


THIS!

You really want to improve things for POS owners & those living in w/h space? Easy, peasey...
- Opt out button for "improved" inventory management system Roll
- Pilots with appropriate POS access can name arrays, silos, etc.

Friends in-game who have played for years and years, who are almost exclusive PvPers with no interest in industry, orcas, or POS management are gob-smacked at how poorly this new system performs.

Please place opt out button with same visibility and easy of access as with CQ; new opt out button right next to old opt out button would be appropriate.

Yes, the "improved" inventory management system really is that bad! This fail is comparable to CQ. Do the people writing this code actually play the game?
Diamonica Norya
Pro Synergy
#110 - 2012-05-23 15:03:14 UTC
Piquet Raddei wrote:
-snip-

I for one appreciate your attention, CCP, and hope we can reach a solution that benefits everyone without necessarily throwing out all the work you guys have done.

Thanks.


Exactly, also ppl should just stop name callings for those who just simply love seeking attention. People like the posters above brought up valid points for discussion and yet there are immature players who simply love to drive the conversation to a deadend with irrelevant epeen posts.

like Piquet says, the new inventory system is not "unusable" (surprise?), but it affects many players that prefer a certain playstyle and workflow. Having a unified inventory like a Windoze Explorer is fine, we all know how to use it, but everyone implement their own workflow differently with their own operating system as well. Some people ever uses a computer to do one thing and never had the need for (more than one or two of) the explorer window, I for one is one of those who has lots of storage devices that I need to access and a single file explorer window is not going to be intuitive, but hey at least most of the OSes bar the handheld devices allows you to open multiple instances of this explorer thing.

Let's just say, stop forcing ppl to play your playstyle and look at the issues from a mature and thoughtful/considerate perspective.

CCP didn't thought through the initial implementation well, it's a fact and caused plenty of problems for a good number of players. It's not the bug that was the main cause for such disappointment, bugs can be fixed, and will be fixed. But it's how the whole implementation step from design->test->feed back->official TQ deployment that upsets a good number of players.

Let's just hope that now since we finally have official responses from the devs regarding this concern many players cared about, it's time for CCP to show how much they cared to fix some of the oversights (and mistakes) that revolve around this particular patch's since development.

Will this carry the legacy of the Crucible expansion? or will it repeat the fails that lead to Incarna? It is totally up to CCP and not us, still, they better do at least as good as they put in words.
Jajas Helper
#111 - 2012-05-23 15:03:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Jajas Helper
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Quick update to the inventory stuff:

We created a list of changes we'd like to make yesterday. Today we're going through it and planning when to do what. I'll post it up later today so you guys can see the changes.

One of the changes I'm mulling over two different options and I'd really like your feedback on it. Specifically, it's the POSs showing all the inventories you can interact with:

Solution one: All POS inventories are treated as wrecks. You fly to them, open them and they're put in your inventory with a little "x" next to them so you can remove them once you've used them.

Solution two: All POS inventories are put in to trees, so you can open/close whatever subsection of inventories you're currently interacting with.

Anyway, feel free to add some feedback to those two and I'll return with a more detailed list of changes later today.



For pos life:
1)pos: click open cargohold of mod -> only show the items in the mod you just clicked ( through selected item/ right click- open cargohold) - the biggest problem is having the overload of information of mods we don't need.

2) added to that, let us be able to "shitf+open carghold" to open a new window, through the selected item window!

why? When doing mass invention/production, you open cargohold from array A - instal jobs -> open cargohold B drag stuff you want from A to B - continue this procces until you have installed 90+ jobs...
-> It could works in the current system, but I like a visual check to see that everything has moved properly and into the right cargohold... wich was imo pretty easy to use.... but read the next point, thats where it gets annoying

3) when you open a new windows through the selected item window- make it remember which corp tab we worked in ( like the current system)

why? because now i have to - open cargohold, find it in the list-> click the corp tab i was working in like before (invention tab, or T2 production tab)

4) like the old system, allow the intire system to remember how a player liked to organize their windows ( yes multiple windows- as in the heat of battle i have less then 1 second time to check my cap booster - ammo i have available and even how much cargospace i have available for looting - shiny mods vs somewhat less shiny mods, i dont have time to **** around and go back and forth between the treetabs.


5) hide the tree structure when you choose to hide it... it gets annoying to see the damn thing when you have no need for it. A cool way would have been if you would have integrated through the search bar


--
Anyway, the basic flaw here is just like the blueprint window-information window - it opens in the same window so we end up having to shift+click to open several information windows and be able to compare the information, have an overview on things, and in general - bypassing the current system that simply doesn't work for a huge amount of people and slow down their game experience.

The new system has good possibilities, but it just doesn't cut it, Let us use the old system with the new system as a " closeable funtion", so basicly optional -> if you had the tree stack open it stays open, if you close it - it stays closed when you open a new window.

Or like some people said in other threads: change it back to the old system and implement the new tree stack system as the asset window! That would have made perfect sense and would have solved a real issue for those who actualy needs to be able to search through their assets...

Everything else about the expansion is great, sad that this cargohold thing is making me totaly unable to enjoy other parts of the expansion...

I have little hope left that this will be fixed properly, the 2 solutions you offered are not fixing the issues, which have been written down already in multiple threads..
And more important, you installed a half decent system and ignored your customers who layed out all the annoyances and problems after actualy testing it on sisi, you CCP choose to ignore them and are now once again showing that you do not even play your own game and have not learned from passed mistakes.

"Insanity is repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results"
Sounds like a great name for the next expansion

Inferno do _stuff _with _stuff _to imitate the _stuff _you could do faster with the old stuff

-stuff-
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#112 - 2012-05-23 15:03:46 UTC
I honestly like the new system, thank you!
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#113 - 2012-05-23 15:05:20 UTC
I hate how it swaps to whichever window you are hovering over in the left. When I want to move items A, B, C, D, and E to five different containers on the left: drag item A, and I have to be damn fast moving back or it automaticly swaps to that container.. so I have to click back to the main hangar, drag item B, etc..

Park yourself in an Orca, doing corp business with 7 corp hangars, numours station containers (personal and corp), and try to move personal and corp- loot between various containers back and forth. And being forced into a container you have no interest in showing, just because you linger for a split second too long over it (quite possibly because you have so many in the list to move stuff to, to begin with).

What a ******* mess.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#114 - 2012-05-23 15:05:24 UTC
Pinstar Colton wrote:
The reason why this new UI is so hated is that it comes across as a complicated process akin to PI and Scanning. Unlike PI and scanning, people who are too lazy to learn about them can't simply ignore the UI and do something else the way they can with PI and Scanning. EVERYONE depends on the UI for everything they do.
Don't be daft.

The reason the new UI is so hated is because it not just comes across as a simple process, but because it is simplified and that it has long a whole lot of power through that simplification. It no longer supports a large swath of use cases and it makes a different large set of use cases much more cumbersome and slow than before.

It has nothing to do with guidance or laziness — it has to do with a loss of functionality. Of course, there are plenty of idiots who never managed to get their heads around the old system so they are ignorant of this loss and thus think that things have improved. The simple fact remains:

The new system does not properly support multiple windows.
The new system does not properly support complex collection of inventories.
The new system does not properly support old inventory management shortcuts that are still in the game.
The new system does not let you set up a consistent work space.
The new system does not offer any context sensitivity.
The new system does not offer any control over what opens where.

…and I haven't even begun to touch on the multitude of bugs that make all of these issues even worse and render any attempt at finding work-arounds meaningless.

So no, the problem is almost exactly the opposite of what you say: it's not the complexity that is the problem and that is making people angry — it's the loss of complex functionality, and this anger is then increased by people who are were too lazy to figure out how the old system work and who come along and ignorantly claim that it has anything to do with “learning”. Learning the new system will not make it suddenly regenerate the complex functionality that has been lost. Learning the new system will not suddenly make the daft simplifications go away.
Ad'Hakim Tahous
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#115 - 2012-05-23 15:09:14 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
People just need to get use to it.
No.

People just need to realise that their limited use case isn't universal and that, regardless of whether they know it or not, a lot of functionality has been lost. No amount of “getting used to it” will make that functionality come back.



Quoted for truth
Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#116 - 2012-05-23 15:09:56 UTC
In trying to move things from my ship cargo hold to the station hangar, I found it too easy to drop my stuff into the corp hangar.

I really miss seeing the big window of all my ships, I like the icons, not item names.

Was there a way to open two cargo windows at once for drag and drop sorting?

The new inventory does need some tweaking, but change was needed.

Senex Legio
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#117 - 2012-05-23 15:10:32 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Pinstar Colton wrote:
The reason why this new UI is so hated is that it comes across as a complicated process akin to PI and Scanning. Unlike PI and scanning, people who are too lazy to learn about them can't simply ignore the UI and do something else the way they can with PI and Scanning. EVERYONE depends on the UI for everything they do.
Don't be daft.

The reason the new UI is so hated is because it not just comes across as a simple process, but because it is simplified and that it has long a whole lot of power through that simplification. It no longer supports a large swath of use cases and it makes a different large set of use cases much more cumbersome and slow than before.

It has nothing to do with guidance or laziness — it has to do with a loss of functionality. Of course, there are plenty of idiots who never managed to get their heads around the old system so they are ignorant of this loss and thus think that things have improved. The simple fact remains:

The new system does not properly support multiple windows.
The new system does not properly support complex collection of inventories.
The new system does not properly support old inventory management shortcuts that are still in the game.
The new system does not let you set up a consistent work space.
The new system does not offer any context sensitivity.
The new system does not offer any control over what opens where.

…and I haven't even begun to touch on the multitude of bugs that make all of these issues even worse and render any attempt at finding work-arounds meaningless.

So no, the problem is almost exactly the opposite of what you say: it's not the complexity that is the problem and that is making people angry — it's the loss of complex functionality, and this anger is then increased by people who are were too lazy to figure out how the old system work and who come along and ignorantly claim that it has anything to do with “learning”. Learning the new system will not make it suddenly regenerate the complex functionality that has been lost. Learning the new system will not suddenly make the daft simplifications go away.


And the new windows that open when you shift-click, is alot larger than what the old ones used to be, thus if you try to 'mimic' the old system (even with the new limitations), you're still blocking more of your screen just to show these windows. But I bet you had that covered in "not let you set up a consistent work space" (even tho that more applies to windows being locked in place).

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Harold Tuphlos
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#118 - 2012-05-23 15:12:20 UTC
silens vesica wrote:
Don't like it, but can live with it.

Specific complaint:
Looting multiple cannisters takes much more time.

Before:
Open all cannisters. Click 'loot all' button, cannister vanishes, to show next cannister. I could clean out twenty cannisters faster than you took to read this sentence.

Now:
Open one canister. Loot. Open next cannister. Loot. Repeat until done. Time elapsed it roughly three times as long as previously.

Only three times as long? I salvaged c3 radar sites last night, and I couldn't empty the cans while salvaging the wrecks or the lag turned the whole thing into a 1 fps slideshow.
And do NOT ever try stacking stuff in your cargo hold if you have it open twice, unless you want to restart your eve client.
Hathrul
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#119 - 2012-05-23 15:13:13 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Quick update to the inventory stuff:

We created a list of changes we'd like to make yesterday. Today we're going through it and planning when to do what. I'll post it up later today so you guys can see the changes.

One of the changes I'm mulling over two different options and I'd really like your feedback on it. Specifically, it's the POSs showing all the inventories you can interact with:

Solution one: All POS inventories are treated as wrecks. You fly to them, open them and they're put in your inventory with a little "x" next to them so you can remove them once you've used them.

Solution two: All POS inventories are put in to trees, so you can open/close whatever subsection of inventories you're currently interacting with.

Anyway, feel free to add some feedback to those two and I'll return with a more detailed list of changes later today.


though id prefer option 2 (and can we get an ignore button svp?) the most important thing will be fixing the lag. if solution 1 removes the lag to a level thats at least as good as it was and solution 2 doesnt, please give me solution 1.

also, can i vote for a combination, keeping the lag thing in mind? Guns and missile launchers are treated as wrecks, you only fill them once, and maybe empty them once again. sma's/cha's and assembly arrays are used all the times so they could potentially benefit from the new inventory system
Spanking Monkeys
ZC Omega
#120 - 2012-05-23 15:16:48 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:


A right click menu with 15 options is about the worst functionality in the world.


so you added 'to captains quarters' (an option no one cares about, and is on the station panel). didnt remove undock, cos there is a BIG UNDOCK BUTTON.
you also didnt trim any of the useless fluff from the list. show info, add to market quick bar, find in contracts, view market details, buy this type.

and instead you removed all the stuff that was useful on a docked ship. open corp hanger, open fuel bay, open ship maintance bay.

you then repeated the same removel of functionality on everything you could lay your hands on. pos hangers, assemblys etc etc.


can you put all this 'short cuts' back in? as it woudl make life so much easier than opening that 1 massive window everytime you need to open individual items.

even if you allowed us custom short cuts, that would solve many of issue with functionality.

cross posted and updated, as you arnt reading that topic anymore