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AFK Cloaking in System is a Terrible Mechanic
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Djavue
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#181 - 2012-05-22 14:25:26 UTC
Literally the only people who complain about afk cloakers are botters in 0.0
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#182 - 2012-05-22 14:27:40 UTC
Alex Sinai wrote:
You whine about afk cloakers then you whine about afk Titans and then you will whine about pvp. Stop being a loser and start learning how to counter it using in game tools instead of pledging to nerf something that you impotent to counter.

If you find an afk titan, please open a convo with DaBigRedBoat. Make sure you have a cyno ship and a supercapital-tackling ship available (preferably several of the latter).

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Eso Es
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#183 - 2012-05-22 15:48:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Eso Es
Alex Sinai wrote:
Every time i see "Remove afk cloaking" thread i laugh. Another pledge for nerf. How many times in gaming history and in CCP history nerfing resulted in lost subscriptions. Nerfing something like cloaking even touching it will result in massive outrage.

You whine about afk cloakers then you whine about afk Titans and then you will whine about pvp. Stop being a loser and start learning how to counter it using in game tools instead of pledging to nerf something that you impotent to counter. There is already placed in game perfect tools for countering afk cloaking. If you cant do that may be High sec is your place or perhaps you fail as commander if you cant organize simple op to squeeze out afk cloakers.

Stop whining and start thinking.


And what tools do you propose to counter this exaclty? Seeing as how every suggestion so far has been either a) wrong or b) bad -I'd love to here a real one from someone who seems so adamant about there even being one.

Just so you don't repeat one of the fail suggestions that have been made already and look like just another forum flamer that has no real input to any discussions:

1) Install a Cyno Jammer
*These don't block covert ops cynos

2) Bring a defensive squad to said ratting operation
*How much is enough? The defender has no way to gauge enemy strength. 4 PvP battleships might be scary.. then again if the hotdropper has 15 dudes waiting to drop in maybe not.

3) Guard the entrance to your system
*so you want me to dedicate a gate camp on multiple gates 24/7 with the hopes of catching a cloaked ship.. Wow that sounds REALLY BORING not to mention I can count the number of times I've caught a cloaky ship upon jumping into a system before he cloaked on one finger.

4) Suck it up and stop being a carebear
*Ummm derp? Not all of us can PLEX for PvP ships.

So, If you have any meaningful suggestions other than to tell me to "stop whining and adapt" to a situation that, to me, seems completely unadaptable, please feel free to post again. If not, stay the hell out of my thread.


P.S. Im not asking for a nerf, Im asking for more interaction between players. I've already stated that I would be completely fine with cloaking removing you from local as a cookie to the cloakers and what theyre trying to accomplish, although later posters said that would present problems with logoff cloakers.
Plentath
Sparkle Motion.
#184 - 2012-05-22 17:32:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Plentath
Richard Desturned wrote:
Plentath wrote:
I live in a WH.

When I get the idea there is an AFK cloaker in system I take precautions. You can never be sure one way or the other whether you're going to get jumped or not.

I am yet to die to one.

Yet apparently, a guy AFK cloaking in nullsec is a cause for OMG LOCKDOWN ALL THE THINGS!! ZOMG!! OH NO!!

Pathetic.


there's these things called "cynos," maybe you've heard of them?


I dunno. I heard an aligned ship can warp faster than the aggressor can decloak, drop cyno, get help and tackle a ship.

When I rat in nullsec there's usually 2-5 in local with me, none of them blue.

I really don't see why I can do this and other people cower at a name in local with no blue plus sign.

Is there a reason you're not cyno-jamming systems? The amount of ships you can get through from a covert cyno / BLOPS portal isn't impressive.
Sid Hudgens
Doomheim
#185 - 2012-05-22 17:57:54 UTC
Nullbears need to HTFU.

"....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced."
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#186 - 2012-05-22 22:04:22 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
If you're in local and not known to the inhabitants then you are a threat....see endless afk cloaking whine.
Close, but not quite. If you're an unknown in local, people assume you're a threat, regardless of whether you are one or not… and thus we have the endless AFK cloaking whines. That's kind of my point: people assume a connection between the data and its meaning that isn't really there. Making the mechanics enforce a much sharper disconnect between the two might snap people out of that flawed perception.

Quote:
OK, I'll concede this point here because your previous post implied that you could do nothing but be afk in order to not be in local. I.E. if you moved, even cloaked, you'd be seen in local.
Nah, it's a more of a double-blind system. The comms system can't pick you up; you can't use the comms system. It comes with both benefits and detriments. I think the original suggestion (now lost in the depth of the forum archives) also suggested a spool-up time on cynos to make them mutually detrimental as well, since that's the thing people are really worried about.

Quote:
Well, that still conveys intel to the inhabitants, doesn't it? If you're a cloaky, you can't really enter the system uncloaked. So, they'll see you pop up, if they're paying attention. But, the large question here, for me is, why even have local update at all for anyone? The natural progression of what you described is more reliance on cloaky vessels, particular T3's. Unfortunately, in order for those cloaky scouts and recon vessels to bring more DPS onto the field local still telegraphs such ship movements when a fleet arrives in response to favorable intel from the scouts. I want to understand that importance to you.
The importance really lies in hose five words: “if they're paying attention”. I have no problems with intel being used in various ways (and it being subverted) — I have a problem with it being done automatically for you. At that point, it's no longer intel — it's an automated alarm system. If that attacking cloaker fleet leaves a trail of bread-crumbs behind for the eagle-eyed to spot, then that's excellent! That means you both sides have to exercise some situational awareness and stealth to gain an advantage over the other side.



Having a hard time following you. *shrugs* Well just agree to disagree on this. But, I'll give the suggestion more thought, not that my opinion matters.

It's attractive to not be seen at all as a cloaky. On the other hand, noone should be seen in local automatically anyway.

Don't ban me, bro!
Varesk
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#187 - 2012-05-22 22:34:38 UTC
Eso Es wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I like cloaking, I like ganking in WHs, I like breaking gate camps, but to be able to sit afk in someones system cloaked FOR DAYS with no repercussions is just unacceptable. Make cloakers susceptible to combat probes, or really, just do SOMETHING to limit the un-interactiveness of cloak, its a fail mechanic as is. Let the flames begin ^^



TL;DR

WHHHAAAAAAAAA WHAAAAAAAAAA A GUY THATS AFK AND CLOAKED IS STOPPING ME FROM RATTING.


hope that is close, didnt read OP.
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
#188 - 2012-05-22 23:55:38 UTC
Djavue wrote:
Literally the only people who complain about afk cloakers are botters in 0.0



now you know that's BS, there has been loads of threads about the problem. most of which people are pissed they can't find and kill said afk person who left his ship (in most cases a usless shite ship with no other modules fitted) floating in space.
it's a tactic used during wars also. so it's not Literally only people who are botters in 0.0
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
#189 - 2012-05-22 23:56:36 UTC
Varesk wrote:
Eso Es wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I like cloaking, I like ganking in WHs, I like breaking gate camps, but to be able to sit afk in someones system cloaked FOR DAYS with no repercussions is just unacceptable. Make cloakers susceptible to combat probes, or really, just do SOMETHING to limit the un-interactiveness of cloak, its a fail mechanic as is. Let the flames begin ^^



TL;DR

WHHHAAAAAAAAA WHAAAAAAAAAA A GUY THATS AFK AND CLOAKED IS STOPPING ME FROM RATTING.


hope that is close, didnt read OP.



can't read more like, can i ask you a question man,, why respond to a thread you refuse to read or can't read ?
snake pies
Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society
#190 - 2012-05-23 00:32:21 UTC
new inefficient combat probes to scan for cloaked ships, warping to it lands you 5km off

cloakers will mostly still get away by just being aligned and moving while afk cloaked, or to be even safer when actively moving in weird patterns through space
Eso Es
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#191 - 2012-05-28 19:48:10 UTC
As an addendum, we have now had the same reds in both our home system and our neighbor for over 4 days. This has completely shut down all ISK making ventures in 2/3 of the systems our corp currently has access to... and there is not a godd*mn thing I can do about it other than b*tch on the forums. Is this a healthy mechanic for the game? That 1 player has the ability to sit with complete immunity in system for DAYS, and if at any time I decide to say f*ck it, Im running sites/mining etc in that system anyway, he can drop a covert cyno (which I cant see, and also cant block with cyno jammers), and move an unlimited number of hostiles 10km from my position in an instant? I think not.
Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#192 - 2012-05-28 19:52:44 UTC
Yes it is a terrible mechanic and people have made some rather large constructive threads about it over the years
CCP has NEVER asked for input about this mechanic and as such it will never get changed.

For good and bad we are stuck with it.
End of story.

EVERYBODY KNOWS
Amon Kaates
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#193 - 2012-05-28 21:53:08 UTC
Eso Es wrote:
As an addendum, we have now had the same reds in both our home system and our neighbor for over 4 days. This has completely shut down all ISK making ventures in 2/3 of the systems our corp currently has access to... and there is not a godd*mn thing I can do about it other than b*tch on the forums. Is this a healthy mechanic for the game? That 1 player has the ability to sit with complete immunity in system for DAYS, and if at any time I decide to say f*ck it, Im running sites/mining etc in that system anyway, he can drop a covert cyno (which I cant see, and also cant block with cyno jammers), and move an unlimited number of hostiles 10km from my position in an instant? I think not.



You know, it's been a long time since I've done anything in low-sec, so I'll grant that I'm not entirely spun-up on the concerns of the nullspace community.

That being said, "back in my day", I rolled with a crew that always assumed a hostile force was on the other side of the gate. We always assumed that when we were out mining, complexing, or any other activity that you can't do while docked in a station, that we needed scouts and a small security team, even if that team's job was just to tie up the gankers and peel tacklers off. When cloakers were around, sure, we puckered up a little tighter, but we were always operating under the assumption that we'd come under attack at any time.

Maybe the expectations are different now, but in my opinion null-sec should never feel "safe" for operations. Ever. That's why I don't see AFK cloaking, or cloaking period, to be a problem.

As far as covert cynos go, I'm sure I'm not the only one to point this out, but how many ships are you really afraid of coming through? Are black ops drivers really that common that they can decimate what defense you can muster in your home system?

Sounds like you need to redesign your attitude on defense and alert posture, but again, that's just me and I haven't been in a lowsec corp in several years.

The anti-AFK cloakers are saying that CCP's been overlooking this issue for years. I didn't see this as a problem years ago, and I don't see it as one now. Seems like CCP and I are of a like mind on this.

Be glad they show up on local. I think I'd be a lot more paranoid if they didn't; then you'd really have to assume that someone could be parked cloaked within visual range of you at all times. You'd never be "safe".
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
#194 - 2012-05-28 22:27:29 UTC
YOU ALL GOT A BUFF TO SCANNING to hunt down the AFKers. There is no longer a limit on the amount of probes you can use, there is also no longer the ability to become unscannable.

What more do you want? EASY MODE?

They are AFK for christs sakes.
Ian Isk
Sounds Legit
#195 - 2012-05-28 22:34:30 UTC
Amon Kaates wrote:
[quote=Eso Es]in my opinion null-sec should never feel "safe" for operations. Ever. .


Except for cloakers, right? They should be completely safe, and literally impossible to get to in space, making it a no-risk activity.

Good job on being consistent.
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#196 - 2012-05-28 22:42:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Zifrian
Cloaking in general needs an entire revamp. All ships shouldn't have the same ability to cloak without some sort of trade off. Apparently the mechanic was just a hack from when they added cloaking after you jump through a gate. They just gave us a button to turn that on or off. That's why the module has no cycle time and doesn't use cap. This is also why you can't probe them. What module in the game has this freedom?

The afk cloaking thing is annoying because there isn't anything you can do about it. And it's not if they are afk or not...they are there and they could just as easily be waiting to hot drop you. Several people do this. So you can spend all day trying to bait them, or do nothing and go elsewhere. But besides that, there isn't anything to do. That's why people find it so annoying - they can't take care of the threat in their system.

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Bernie Nator
Seal Club Six
Plug N Play
#197 - 2012-05-28 22:48:03 UTC
Next you'll be telling me "REMOVE WORMHOLES FROM NULLSEC THEY MAKE LOCAL GO UP AND THERES BAD PEOPLE IN THERE".
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
#198 - 2012-05-28 22:49:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Miilla
Zifrian wrote:
Cloaking in general needs an entire revamp. All ships shouldn't have the same ability to cloak without some sort of trade off. Apparently the mechanic was just a hack from when they added cloaking after you jump through a gate. They just gave us a button to turn that on or off. That's why the module has no cycle time and doesn't use cap. This is also why you can't probe them. What module in the game has this freedom?

The afk cloaking thing is annoying because there isn't anything you can do about it. And it's not if they are afk or not...they are there and they could just as easily be waiting to hot drop you. Several people do this. So you can spend all day trying to bait them, or do nothing and go elsewhere. But besides that, there isn't anything to do. That's why people find it so annoying - they can't take care of the threat in their system.


They do have a trade off, you can't do anything while AFK, that sounds pretty limiting to me.

What system are you in? I can sit all day in it CLOAKED, but not AFK. will that make a difference to you?
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#199 - 2012-05-28 23:04:28 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
ALL YOU NEED IS A TECH ii DESI THAT CAN PING A 30 KM RADIUS... EVERY THIRTY SECONDS...

BY PINGING A SHIP DOES NOT DECLOAK IT... WHAT PINGING A SHIP WILL DO IT HAVE IT SHOW UP ON OVERVIEW FOR 2 SECONDS... ENOUGH TIME TO TRY AND DECLOAK HIM...

ANY KIND OF NON COVERT OPS CLOAK SHOULD TAKE LIQUID OZONE TO OPERATE...

THE CYCLE TIME OF A TECH I CLOAK WILL BE 30 SECONDS AND TAKE 1 LO PER CYCLE

THE CYCLE TIME OF A TECH ii NON COVERT OPS CLOAK WILL BE 1:30 SECONDS AND TAKE 2 LO PER CYCLE...

P.S U LIKE CAPS LOCKS AS MUCH AS I DO...Attention

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Gul'gotha Derv'ash
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#200 - 2012-05-28 23:23:16 UTC
The null sec alliance I was in had this happen. It was one of the most annoying things ever since he was randomly active through the day. Would jump from one system, then back, etc, etc. I don't see it as a problem though.


As many people have said, local needs removed from null sec. Removing local would make null 100x more entertaining than it is now.