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Ships need Insurances.

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Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#41 - 2012-05-22 18:46:29 UTC
Gallion wrote:
simple yes, broken yes. your point also makes mine.

No my point specifically refutes yours.

It is as it is designed and intended, therefore it is not broken. You just don't like the way CCP wants it. Oh well, deal with it.
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2012-05-22 19:17:03 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
Gallion wrote:
simple yes, broken yes. your point also makes mine.

No my point specifically refutes yours.

It is as it is designed and intended, therefore it is not broken. You just don't like the way CCP wants it. Oh well, deal with it.


Agreed.

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Gallion
Malevelon Roe Industries
Convocation of Empyreans
#43 - 2012-05-22 21:36:02 UTC
yeh, that not my problem. I fully understand.

This is a Signature, It makes people Stare. (Man I gotta Make one , or Find one to steal)
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2012-05-22 22:12:27 UTC
Gallion wrote:
yeh, that not my problem. I fully understand.


Of course you understand yourself....you wrote the bloody post. Derp Derp!

How about the rest of us? Eh?

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Gallion
Malevelon Roe Industries
Convocation of Empyreans
#45 - 2012-05-23 00:40:14 UTC
go back to page 1. Btw you do Production Often?

This is a Signature, It makes people Stare. (Man I gotta Make one , or Find one to steal)
Tiger's Spirit
Templars of the Shadows
#46 - 2012-05-23 09:02:49 UTC
Gallion wrote:
Well its not something ive seen much debate about so I figured Id make the topic.

Insurances for Faction, T2, T3 Just isnt worth dealing with. Its better to Insure to PLATINUM but for the price in most cases of doing so could go to Quick replacing during a large fight(for example).
Id like to see some sort of average % off the market value put into the Insurances.
since getting concordokened is no longer a way to get the claim of it, I can't see their being a reason to not change it.

T3 bing a major hit on 3 fronts, (subsystem SP hit, Insurances, Isk) they dont come cheap, and losing them can be a pain and the isk for its platinum is like 1-2% of actual marketed hard-worked value.


The best is when a fitted T3 value is 2 billions, but the platinum insurance payback 20 million for you :P
l0rd carlos
the king asked me to guard the mountain
#47 - 2012-05-23 09:41:24 UTC  |  Edited by: l0rd carlos
So i read the whole thread, but i still dont get what is broken about T1 Insurances. AFAIK the Insurance is calculated by the avaerage mineral price.

Can someone please dump this down for me?

As for Faction, T2 and T3 insurances, that's a matter of opinion.

Youtube Channel about Micro and Small scale PvP with commentary: Fleet Commentary by l0rd carlos
Gallion
Malevelon Roe Industries
Convocation of Empyreans
#48 - 2012-05-23 17:09:09 UTC
T2 is Produced with T1 Ship hulls.
Faction uses the T1 Hull as Trade with the LP store
T3 has Subsystems that should be accounted for into the Insurance of the hull (its not), Cause it cant be flown with out them.

few others seem to be understanding just fine Corin,
@ l0rd carlos- nothing is broken with T1 insurance just Insurance in general.


Buy an omen of the market you pay for insurance, you get platinum. now you spent more isk to get around 70% of it back.
so you paid total of 12mill, for an 8 mill ship to get only 70% of that 8 mill? and if you instead of selling it later, Put it into T2 version of it that Insurance becomes Null. ^-> i do this often.

This is a Signature, It makes people Stare. (Man I gotta Make one , or Find one to steal)
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#49 - 2012-05-23 19:59:28 UTC
You still haven't explained why it is broken, rather than working as intended.

You just keep spouting your own opinion, mixed with facts that are meaningless.
Gallion
Malevelon Roe Industries
Convocation of Empyreans
#50 - 2012-05-23 23:40:13 UTC
im sorry you dont understand what ive said on the breakdown of it. But I remain correct that it is broken. T2 SHOULD reflect the T1's Insurance payout.

This is a Signature, It makes people Stare. (Man I gotta Make one , or Find one to steal)
Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow
#51 - 2012-05-24 00:48:38 UTC
FYI: Opinion does not equate to fact.

Support your point eith cold, hard facts or just stop.

T2s payout covers the T1 hull that is necessary to build a T2. Not the research, the technical upgrades or the additional materials. Sure, it sucks, but it keeps the market going.

I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Devil your parents warned you about.

||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Bowhead||
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#52 - 2012-05-24 01:59:44 UTC
Gallion wrote:
im sorry you dont understand what ive said on the breakdown of it. But I remain correct that it is broken. T2 SHOULD reflect the T1's Insurance payout.

As Jack said, your opinion isn't a fact.

The FACT is that CCP has made it the way they currently intend it, so by definition it is NOT broken.
Gallion
Malevelon Roe Industries
Convocation of Empyreans
#53 - 2012-05-24 02:41:49 UTC
Ive not seen anything convincing me otherwise.

the fact is that ccp has made it the way they currantly intend it? Can you prove that?

This is a Signature, It makes people Stare. (Man I gotta Make one , or Find one to steal)
Gallion
Malevelon Roe Industries
Convocation of Empyreans
#54 - 2012-05-24 02:47:30 UTC
From Evelopedia.
Quote:

What this means is that after every set insurance period, an index will be created calculating the trimmed average values for all building materials that are used in the building of ships (minerals, T2 and T3 components) and when a ship is destroyed, this index will be used to calculate the full replacement value of that ship based on the materials required to build it. The player will then receive an amount of ISK that is defined by the:

(value of the ship according to the index) * (percentage of insurance coverage) * (ship type multiplyer)

The ship type multiplier is used to make some ships more expensive to lose then others. For example; a Tier 1 battleship will have a multiplier of 1, therefore receiving the full benefit of the type of insurance bought, but a Titan may have a multiplier of 0.01, thus only granting a fraction of the insurance value. This change will allow insurance to scale along with changes in the market and is meant (among other things) to minimize the risk of insurance fraud.

This is a Signature, It makes people Stare. (Man I gotta Make one , or Find one to steal)
Gallion
Malevelon Roe Industries
Convocation of Empyreans
#55 - 2012-05-24 02:52:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Gallion
So the T2 Component, the T1 Hull IS NOT being calculated into the T2 Insurance.

Someone tell me where this Ship multiplier they speak of can be found?

This is a Signature, It makes people Stare. (Man I gotta Make one , or Find one to steal)
Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow
#56 - 2012-05-24 02:54:03 UTC
Notice the value assigned index. Typically the more valuable the ship, the lower the index and that the insurance is only meant to cover the PERCENTAGE of coverage multiplied by said index. So, with that, naturally more valuable ships will have lesser payouts. Way to link something that further damns your cause because you are trying to apply it out of context so that it applies to you.

I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Devil your parents warned you about.

||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Bowhead||
Gallion
Malevelon Roe Industries
Convocation of Empyreans
#57 - 2012-05-24 05:58:15 UTC
I still dont see how it can be so usefull at the rates it gives. by denying its not broken your aware that their is no point to ever really Insure anything outside of T1?
And that Capitolships as they are are getting the proper amounts even tho their process of production is the same as T2, T3 & Faction?

This is a Signature, It makes people Stare. (Man I gotta Make one , or Find one to steal)
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#58 - 2012-05-24 06:09:33 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Gallion wrote:
I still dont see how it can be so usefull at the rates it gives. by denying its not broken your aware that their is no point to ever really Insure anything outside of T1?

Christ. You're still going on about that? Non-T1 ships are SUPPOSED to have bad insurance rates (i.e. you're not really supposed to insure them). That's what keeps T1 ships viable.

Gallion wrote:
And that Capitolships as they are are getting the proper amounts even tho their process of production is the same as T2, T3 & Faction?

Capitols should get insurance rates similar to T2, T3, and faction ships IMO.

How did you Veterans start?
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#59 - 2012-05-24 06:35:10 UTC
ok so im sorry its taken me so long to get back to this,

Now CCP has given every thing a base price.

Isogen 128
Megacyte 8,192
Mexallon 32
Morphite 32,768
Noxcium 512
Pyerite 8
Tritanium 2
Zydrine 2,048

etc, and as you can see, these are not the market prices. A long long time ago, There were NPC buy orders for minerals. and a great many other things. to stabilize the market some, Prices couldnt fall too far. They were removed due to being an isk faucet, CCP wanteed the minerals mined by players to actually do somethign in the game instead of disappearing into the void of NPC land.

Also with minerals disappearing into NPc stations, there was little reason to move vast quantities of the stuff and thus less travel by freighter or industrial, and less risky behavior.

Modules were also priced this way, Meta 1-4 and even -15 are priced out. again though priced out in minearal value, not any other factor.
But the prices were good for something, they helped people (namely CCP programers, decide how much was to be dropped in wrecks and what the average prices of the market ought to look like. when it strayed too far, they were supposed to take new looks at the drop tables. although i believe that the price was only gently used for the meta 0-4 drop tables, Of this i have no confirmation.

But looking at insurance payouts, this makes a lot of sense. T1 for a long time had standard payouts, regardless of market prices. and so insurance fraud was viable. when the mienral prices got below the listed ccp price, it became profitable to self distruct.

Take a look at the t2 material prices, the goo prices and the composites, you will see a vastly under stated price for what it is in comparison to in game.

ie base price of crystalline carbonide is 10 isk. were i to only find that kind of deal in game. calculated out for a t2 ship, the composite prices for a ME0 manufacture run should total something just above the t2 insurance payout at platinum. adding in of course, the platinum insurance payout of a t1 hull.

http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/inventory.php?group_id=429

http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/item.php?type_id=11970

For an arazu, figure you are tacking on ~11 million for the t2 components, a little bit for the ram, construction blocks and the tiny amounts of minerals. and of course the t1 hull

should come out near the insurance pay out of the t2 ship

It has been a long time since i even looked at this, so i may be wrong about it. but it seems that t2 pay outs are kind of where they should be. Increasing the t2 ship payouts would mean that there would never be a reason not to fly them. and the lower barrier to PVP would be raised by more then a month skill wise and several times isk wise, just for the initial buy of the ship.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#60 - 2012-05-24 06:40:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Kusum Fawn
Capitol construction is not the same as t2 or t3. they do not require moon goo/salvage to be built. because their insurance rates are dictated by market forces on the minerals they give "proper" insurance payouts.

the only t2 capitol the JF, does not give "proper cost %" insurance pay outs, it gives proper t2 insurance payouts. which are a far cry from the market price of those materials.

edit: oh yes, and about faction, they too are calculated by mineral values, nothing else. if you look at the bpc's which are also seeded in the LP stores, you can see what they need to be built and see about what the insurance is going to be. Difficulty in obtaining an object is a hard thing to quantify into an insurance payout in this game. So CCP made that value 0 for their calculations.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.