Science & Industry

1st - most of those changes you mentioned were actually mods/items nerfs while if we consider exploration and R&D agents we are talking about a WHOLE system nerf...
2nd - still, that doesnt change the obvious fact that altering rules in the midle of the game is unfair... and i still belive it would be fair to have a compensation* offered - a "recover the SPs compensation" see below for details...


actually i dont give a rats ^^^ on those "free isk" - i've never touched my RPs and most likely i never will... i AM doing invention & manufacturing and most of the other aspects of eve (except piracy... bahhh)... more: i've never "farmed" for isks in any way - i've never had alts to fund my gameplay... that being said i'll point again: my whole "argument" is just a matter of principle...




to answer your question (if it was indeed a question): i will quote here something i've allready posted (earlier):
... for the research agent / "passive income" mechanics nerf : i've made my decision folowing the rules in place at that spec moment and "wasted" precious training time in the proccess... i can understamd there may be reasons for CHANGES and sure thing i would adapt any new "system"... but i would also expect at least the courtesy to have the option to reallocate the SPs one could consider "wasted" because of the changes - thats not a whinne but a resonable and documented expectation... and above all it would cost nothing at all, neither for the developer or the community...
...
(as a sidenote: i'm 99.9% sure i wouldnt reallocate those SP even if option would be available - still... i consider it is a matter of fairness from ccp to offer the option)

I would like to see the math behind this assertion.

I could use a good laugh.

I would give "black adder" a go if i you havent seen it, a bit old, but better than the Simpsons.

I started EvE when in college as a mode of stress reduction. I could mine semi-afk, make some corresponding gains, buy shiny stuff in concert with my in-game income, all while doing homework and staying productive during my education.

I chose to grind R&D rep specifically to get a passive income stream. I trained all those skills and prerequisites as a priority, when I could have been training pew-pew skillz for the active glory.

Now I find, that due to a managerial decision, passiive incomes suck, and all those who played the game intelligently as it was designed, are gonna get hammered in the passive income department.

Now that I have gainful employment after college, I find that I have less time to play, not more, as I envisioned during my college experience.

With even more time devoted to my career, and less time for gaming, this nerf is particularly cutting.

Dare I tell the Devs to go fork themselves? No. I won't. I will only say that there are many people who have adapted to the EvE environment in many ways, and I do not understand why CCP has selected some for enhancement, and others, via our intelligent choices based upon game mechanics, to be marginalized.

This is NOT a sandbox. This is fascism in which the people in control determine the outcome via biased social engineering. And the minute the realization is made that the game is not fair, and actually rigged at the whim of the Devs/CCP Management, is the minute you have to realize that the sandbox is not governed by the players as advertised.

I think I'm insane. All I really wanted to say was: give us back our passive income stream !!!

No you are not insane. Unless I am.

The game, it's mechanics and rules, is utterly changed from a little over 2 years ago when I started. The ISK Guide 3.0 reads like an ancient text now (even the module names in it don't match a THING now).

I'm left sitting in a box with NO SAND in sight. THAT's the better metaphor I feel.

Hear, Hear!!
1) Skillpoint accumulation stops while you are offline.
2) PI extractors turn off when you log out.
3) Manufacturing/Invention/Research/Copy/Refining/etc jobs stop unless you are logged in and present in the station or within 100k of the POS array/lab.
4) Moon mining stops when the character that started it goes offline.
5) Your market orders are not visible to others while you are offline.
6) Maybe even your POS goes offline if nobody from corp is logged in.

I'm sure we can come up with some more. After all, every one of those is just like research points and datacores... You have to train skills and/or gather materials and/or set things up and then start the process, then after that they happen "passively", and most of them provide income. So I'm sure that's what you meant, right?

We want EvE to exclusively reward grinding, not intelligent decisions or choices.

1st of all i'd reff the word "idiot" - well, go figure not all of us are polishing out brains to get them flat and shiny as some have...
2nd: here's another "idiot" who dares have a different oppinion... so dont be shy, unleash the dogs ... give us all some of your awesomness ... after all this is the internet: - behind miles of cable, many of us suddently find their vocabulary also includes words like "idiot"... so:

1. If skillpoints are not income i may be interested to buy your char for 2 isks BO... for now i'm only beting 1 isk - i have to see the skillsheet before going further... i'm just an "idiot", remember? therefore i could get overwhelmet by your char develpment plan and being unable to understand your superior "vision" i may not be willing to offer the whole 2 isks...
2. so the click fest only applys for the issues YOU have knoledge of... well... obviously YOU dont have the slightest ideea about the amount of game "clicks" needed to set up a R&D agent... not to mention the brain "clicks" needed to decide it would worth to have an R&D agent...
3-4-5-6... and so on... useless to argue ("argue" like in "argument")

i have the feeling your wow char is uncomfortable lonely latelly, isnt it?

and again i have to point i can fully understand there may be reasons for CHANGES and sure thing most of us would adapt any new "system"... but i would also expect at least the courtesy to have the option to reallocate the SPs one could consider "wasted" because of the changes - thats not a whinne but a resonable and documented expectation... and above all it would cost nothing at all, neither for the developer or the community...

LOL. I do see the logic, and I completely agree that R&D agents are probably the *most* passive source of income in the game. However, they are not *completely* passive, which is what a number of people seem to keep saying. My point - which you seem to have missed - is that there are many aspects of this game that are passive to one degree or another. The post I was responding to said that there should be zero income for anything passive. I was listing things that reward you, in one way or another, in the same "passive" way that R&D agents do.
I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek, and illustrating my point by a degree of exaggeration. I obviously don't think that any of those things I listed should actually be done. Sorry if that was not obvious.

However...

1) I'll agree with you that SP is not "income" in the strictest sense. But it IS a reward. And the more intelligently you set yourself up (choosing to use attribute implants, strategic remaps, etc) the more SP you earn and the more income you can potentially make due to your improved in-game abilities. (Kinda like choosing good R&D agents, grinding the standings and researching the right datacores.) And note that I said MOST (not ALL) of the things I mentioned were income.

2&3) Click-fest is active. Yep. But you can choose to do PI in a way that minimizes the clicking. How many clicks qualifies something as active versus passive? At least once per day? I don't do clicks every day for my PI colonies due to the cycle time I have chosen. And restarting extractors is now fairly minimal clicking. The majority of the work for PI is the initial setup and hauling the stuff. Kinda sounds similar to R&D agents to me. Same with manufacturing/invention/etc. I click several times to set up the job, then let it crank PASSIVELY while I do other things. Hopefully you can see the parallels between these "activities".

4) I don't see why it matters whether the activity is corporate or individual. People keep saying that there should be no reward for passive activity. You are absolutely correct that defending the station is not passive. Nor is transporting the moon goo. Nor is transporting datacores to market (albeit likely safer than nullsec transport).

5&6) I was intentionally stretching the "passive" definition to the absurd. He said to reward active players only, so I was "implementing" his suggestion.

You say passive income = undeserved welfare. Does that apply to RL, too? For example, bank savings accounts?

and by the way:



as long as the eve monthly subscription has the same price for both the active and the pasive player theres no such thing as "undeserved welfare"
just like IRL: some are happy with being paid 5000 $/month for active (hard)working but others may preffer to passively live doing (almost) nothing with a 2000 $/month rent income... as long as both are paying the taxes (therfore folowing the rules) both are honorable citizens...

Lol. "They buffed the **** out of probing, I WANT MY PROBING SKILLPOINTS BACK!"

Holy ****, you have entitlement issues.



The basic "idea" doesn't hold because that is a product that you wholly own - it is not a part of an integral system of a virtual universe inhabited by hundreds of thousands of other people. Their concern in making game changes is the welfare of the game as a whole - not the welfare of Tadeo Musashy as an individual.

Should incursion runners have all of their investments into incursion running refunded because incursions were nerfed?
Should anyone who trained for nano have theirs refunded, too?
Should bomber pilots have their SP refunded if they don't like the new bomber model? What about the change from cruise missiles to torps?
Should rifter pilots have all of their minmatar frigate SPs refunded because the Incursus, Merlin, and Punisher are now much better than they were a week ago?

You don't deserve compensation every time a game change adversely affects you. That is never going to happen. I'm sure whining like this was a major concern of theirs when they first introduced the ability to refund SPs. The management overhead alone would make it completely infeasible, and on top of that, the end result would be everyone shifting masses off skillpoints from one flavor of the month to the next every time something was rebalanced. It would pretty clearly be to the detriment of the game as a whole.

All that aside, gutting research agents still leaves the primary function of every skill except research project management entirely intact. Coupled with the decryptor change, it's actually a net benefit. It's like CCP stole a nickel from you and gave you a C-note in return, and you're ceaselessly crying about that nickel instead of pocketing the $99.95.