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FW: I-hub and system upgrades

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Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#601 - 2012-11-09 15:38:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Flyinghotpocket
about ******* time

thank you
(referring to new jump gates)

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#602 - 2012-11-09 17:35:19 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
awesome work. I was checking the FW area with the latest build... nice changes. But are you sure you want to have destroyers in rookie complexes? T1 frigs vs destroyers is suicide most of the time... esp for rookies. Small plexes have T2 frigs which are a fine match to destroyers. Also the plex description does not mention faction ships at all so i have not tested it.


This is quite false - I frequently solo thrashers in my condor all the time.

If anything - navy frigates are far more dangerous against t1 frigates than destroyers, because while a t1 frigate can exploit a significant difference in velocity to win a fight, that advantage does not exist against a navy frigate. (I love my 40 points on BC for killing a dessie in a t1 frig).

Having said that, I am OK with rookie plexes, I enjoy ship segregation. I really hope the devs won't go ahead with "all cruisers in one plex" because it's so nice to be able to fly cruisers away from zealot/guardian/rapier/falcon blobbery which currently is fielded against bc's and even BS's.
Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch
#603 - 2012-11-10 10:40:05 UTC
chatgris wrote:
I like to boast about killing destroyers in condor when running my t3 links in safespot.


Fixed that for you. Some of us actually do it without links but don't see the need to make massive forum posts about it.
Gabriel Luis
Horde Vanguard.
Pandemic Horde
#604 - 2012-11-12 15:09:05 UTC
Amamake closer from home? Sounds freaking awesome !

[03:18:54] Zack1023 > tishu = pl, nc.
lovebus
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#605 - 2012-11-16 04:16:53 UTC
now i could be mistaken about this since i live in null sec we don't see many incursions existing for more than a few hours before some1 takes them out. Don't they have detrimental effects on teh systems? why not just do the opposite of those effects? ALSO why not implement some combat related bonuses so that it is easier for defending navies to HOLD the systems they invest in and creat chokepooints. That is the main reason i dont do FW personally, the systems flip too often.

However this is a risky move that may create more problems than it saves as far as combat mechanics go but it think it would solve your whole "incentive" issue. Think about it. the reason peopl create infastructure is becasue they expect it to be a long term investment. Why would i dedicate my time and resources to a system that probably won't belong to my faction after i get back from dinner?
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#606 - 2012-11-16 04:40:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
chatgris wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
awesome work. I was checking the FW area with the latest build... nice changes. But are you sure you want to have destroyers in rookie complexes? T1 frigs vs destroyers is suicide most of the time... esp for rookies. Small plexes have T2 frigs which are a fine match to destroyers. Also the plex description does not mention faction ships at all so i have not tested it.


This is quite false - I frequently solo thrashers in my condor all the time.

yeah. thrashers, you know that there are also other destroyers available? wait till the expansion arrives.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Rengerel en Distel
#607 - 2012-11-16 12:55:11 UTC
lovebus wrote:
now i could be mistaken about this since i live in null sec we don't see many incursions existing for more than a few hours before some1 takes them out. Don't they have detrimental effects on teh systems? why not just do the opposite of those effects? ALSO why not implement some combat related bonuses so that it is easier for defending navies to HOLD the systems they invest in and creat chokepooints. That is the main reason i dont do FW personally, the systems flip too often.

However this is a risky move that may create more problems than it saves as far as combat mechanics go but it think it would solve your whole "incentive" issue. Think about it. the reason peopl create infastructure is becasue they expect it to be a long term investment. Why would i dedicate my time and resources to a system that probably won't belong to my faction after i get back from dinner?


The mechanics in place now, systems seem to take days or weeks to flip, and they only flip if the defenders really don't seem to want the system. Perhaps someone has the exact numbers, but the warzones have seemed pretty stagnant since the change.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#608 - 2012-11-16 15:13:39 UTC
Who could possibly have predicted that introducing defensive LP would make the warzone static .. must require several Ph.D's to ever come to that conclusion!!!!!

PS: No I dont have a Ph.D. much less several, yet it was clear to me after a full minutes worth of thought .. either I am godly in the brain/analytical department or CCP+cronies are the proverbial doornails.
PPS: To sort their fuckup, they are now contemplating adding off-race NPCs to defensive plexes to increase the risk .. rather than just axing (or reducing) D.LP again, go figure .. the level of folly can compete with the worst politicians bring to the table .. hahahahahahaha.

My take: Holding a system should be its own reward (lots of possibilities, debated since forever), upgrades should be worth enough to want to defend them (lots of possibilities, debated since forever) or defensive plexing should be removed entirely by using aut-run timers (lots of possibilities, debated since forever).
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#609 - 2012-11-16 15:52:14 UTC
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
lovebus wrote:
now i could be mistaken about this since i live in null sec we don't see many incursions existing for more than a few hours before some1 takes them out. Don't they have detrimental effects on teh systems? why not just do the opposite of those effects? ALSO why not implement some combat related bonuses so that it is easier for defending navies to HOLD the systems they invest in and creat chokepooints. That is the main reason i dont do FW personally, the systems flip too often.

However this is a risky move that may create more problems than it saves as far as combat mechanics go but it think it would solve your whole "incentive" issue. Think about it. the reason peopl create infastructure is becasue they expect it to be a long term investment. Why would i dedicate my time and resources to a system that probably won't belong to my faction after i get back from dinner?


The mechanics in place now, systems seem to take days or weeks to flip, and they only flip if the defenders really don't seem to want the system. Perhaps someone has the exact numbers, but the warzones have seemed pretty stagnant since the change.




The changes in the way payouts happen and giving lp for defensive plexing have made the war much more stagnant. There are no mid term goals like doing a cashout. Occupancy war is now just grinding one plex after another after another forever.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#610 - 2012-11-16 16:00:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
... or defensive plexing should be removed entirely by using aut-run timers (lots of possibilities, debated since forever).


Or just force the defending side to actually defend their military complexes by blowing up wartargets trying to capture them. You know "pvp". Its not really clear to me why people should be able watch the enemy come into their system capture their military complexes and just sit there, wait for them to leave and then start carebearing the contested level down when local is clear of wts.

But that is exactly the behavior this last patch rewards, by giving lp for defensive plexing.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Rengerel en Distel
#611 - 2012-11-17 15:52:49 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Who could possibly have predicted that introducing defensive LP would make the warzone static .. must require several Ph.D's to ever come to that conclusion!!!!!

PS: No I dont have a Ph.D. much less several, yet it was clear to me after a full minutes worth of thought .. either I am godly in the brain/analytical department or CCP+cronies are the proverbial doornails.
PPS: To sort their fuckup, they are now contemplating adding off-race NPCs to defensive plexes to increase the risk .. rather than just axing (or reducing) D.LP again, go figure .. the level of folly can compete with the worst politicians bring to the table .. hahahahahahaha.

My take: Holding a system should be its own reward (lots of possibilities, debated since forever), upgrades should be worth enough to want to defend them (lots of possibilities, debated since forever) or defensive plexing should be removed entirely by using aut-run timers (lots of possibilities, debated since forever).


I think you came pretty late to the discussion, but every post after they talked about the defensive bleed rate said it was too slow.

I'd guess you haven't done a defensive plex either, but the payouts on systems you're actually trying to keep stable are pretty low. There are some systems it seems people are trying to keep in the "money" range, but for the most part, you're getting 100-600 lp doing a defensive plex.

The problem with any solution to plexes is that they're a pve mechanic. Any pvp twist you put on them can just be jobbed by making an alt in the other militia. The only solution i could see would be to make offensive and defensive plexes actually 2 different things, and if you do either, it clears one from the other side for an hour or two. So if you offensively plex, it removes a defensive plex from the system for a couple hours, or extends the respawn rate. That way gangs can work to effectively sway a system one way or another. People would have incentive to fight off those gangs too, to keep from losing their homes.


With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#612 - 2012-11-17 17:39:25 UTC
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
I think you came pretty late to the discussion, but every post after they talked about the defensive bleed rate said it was too slow.

Considering that I have been one of the most rabid and consistent posters of feedback on anything/everything FW related for more than four years, that is tantamount to an insult .. I ought to petition you for personal attacks!!! Big smile
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
I'd guess you haven't done a defensive plex either, but the payouts on systems you're actually trying to keep stable are pretty low. There are some systems it seems people are trying to keep in the "money" range, but for the most part, you're getting 100-600 lp doing a defensive plex.

Doesn't matter if you get just one LP per plex, it is "free" in that it is given to the alts who were made unemployed by offensive plex changes (kill NPCs) .. the payout should be indirectly linked to defensive work as described in the post you quoted, anything else is silly.

@Cearain:
Primary defence should be pew based and CCP are reportedly working on the feedback system the two of us have been bickering about for years which will make roaming defence the new black.
To augment it and sweeten the pot a bit when D.Plex LP is removed and auto-timers are implemented (hope springs eternal), LP-for-kills gained within a plex for the defending side should translate directly (or with modifier) towards the system pool .. that way you don't have to win the plex as in days of old as long as you try by throwing enough ships on the pyre to equal the VP the attacker gains for completing the plex.

Remember that the defender is alone in being able to dock, since it won't change (given up on that) it is about time that monopoly had a purpose other than 'just because' .. give them a reason to use that reship ability!
Rengerel en Distel
#613 - 2012-11-19 21:09:18 UTC
It seems from Hans' latest CSM update, that he's personally pushing for the plex timer in the overview change. I can't say enough how much i disagree with that change. The overview already gives out too much intel for free, there's no need to give it even more. It might lead to more fights, but simply having the system name flashing in the FW window showing that a plex is being run would do the same, without making it easy on people.

Pirates should have to scan plexes down in the first place, but it doesn't seem that will change. The militia scrubs that just jump around trying to split the lp from the plex will increase. People will be able to dscan, and have a much better idea if there's an acceleration gate camp or not, actually leading to less pvp. If you see 1 person there, and the timer is counting down, you automatically know that one person is inside, with perhaps cloakers, but you'll know from local how many people you have to worry about.

Timers on the overview is just a bad change. Simply have the system name in the FW window flash. The pvpers can go there and hunt the offenders down. Handing people a sign that says "here i am" is just an idiotic change.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#614 - 2012-11-20 14:51:53 UTC
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
It seems from Hans' latest CSM update, that he's personally pushing for the plex timer in the overview change. I can't say enough how much i disagree with that change. The overview already gives out too much intel for free, there's no need to give it even more. It might lead to more fights, but simply having the system name flashing in the FW window showing that a plex is being run would do the same, without making it easy on people.

Pirates should have to scan plexes down in the first place, but it doesn't seem that will change. The militia scrubs that just jump around trying to split the lp from the plex will increase. People will be able to dscan, and have a much better idea if there's an acceleration gate camp or not, actually leading to less pvp. If you see 1 person there, and the timer is counting down, you automatically know that one person is inside, with perhaps cloakers, but you'll know from local how many people you have to worry about.

Timers on the overview is just a bad change. Simply have the system name in the FW window flash. The pvpers can go there and hunt the offenders down. Handing people a sign that says "here i am" is just an idiotic change.



We can already see the plexes on overview when you are in system. Now at least we can see if anyone is in the plex running the timer.

This change does not go far enough at all. The frequency of pvp in faction war is already dropping as it is no longer the the gold mine it used to be. Every militia member should know when its militiary complexes are attacked.

As far as handing people a sign saying "here I am," I can only say that if you wanted to stay hidden you shouldn't have attacked a military complex. There are plenty of ways to play "hide and seek" in eve. You can run missions, rat in belts, run sleeper sites etc etc. But the current system where you can openly attack an enemy military complex and not have that military know about it is what is idiotic.

They need to go much further in this direction if they really want faction war to be a unique avenue to frequent quality pvp.

Unfortunately the economic incentives are lopsided. When you add mechanics to encourage pvp like a timer rollback and notifications to a lopsided war you make it even more lopsided. So they created a new problem that they will need to resolve before they can accurately judge the mechanics intended to lead to pvp.


Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Rengerel en Distel
#615 - 2012-11-20 15:15:32 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
It seems from Hans' latest CSM update, that he's personally pushing for the plex timer in the overview change. I can't say enough how much i disagree with that change. The overview already gives out too much intel for free, there's no need to give it even more. It might lead to more fights, but simply having the system name flashing in the FW window showing that a plex is being run would do the same, without making it easy on people.

Pirates should have to scan plexes down in the first place, but it doesn't seem that will change. The militia scrubs that just jump around trying to split the lp from the plex will increase. People will be able to dscan, and have a much better idea if there's an acceleration gate camp or not, actually leading to less pvp. If you see 1 person there, and the timer is counting down, you automatically know that one person is inside, with perhaps cloakers, but you'll know from local how many people you have to worry about.

Timers on the overview is just a bad change. Simply have the system name in the FW window flash. The pvpers can go there and hunt the offenders down. Handing people a sign that says "here i am" is just an idiotic change.



We can already see the plexes on overview when you are in system. Now at least we can see if anyone is in the plex running the timer.

This change does not go far enough at all. The frequency of pvp in faction war is already dropping as it is no longer the the gold mine it used to be. Every militia member should know when its militiary complexes are attacked.

As far as handing people a sign saying "here I am," I can only say that if you wanted to stay hidden you shouldn't have attacked a military complex. There are plenty of ways to play "hide and seek" in eve. You can run missions, rat in belts, run sleeper sites etc etc. But the current system where you can openly attack an enemy military complex and not have that military know about it is what is idiotic.

They need to go much further in this direction if they really want faction war to be a unique avenue to frequent quality pvp.

Unfortunately the economic incentives are lopsided. When you add mechanics to encourage pvp like a timer rollback and notifications to a lopsided war you make it even more lopsided. So they created a new problem that they will need to resolve before they can accurately judge the mechanics intended to lead to pvp.




my guess is you didn't actually read my entire post, since i said the FW window show flash when a plex is being run in that system. Attacking a military complex and having the opposing militia arrive to defend it is one thing, having pirates have free intel for no reason is idiotic. Having your own militia wait until the last minute to crash the plex and split the lp is idiotic. atleast currently, you have to dscan to know which plex someone is in, and have to scout to know if they're in the plex or gate camping it, etc.

if you don't think you should have to work at all for your pvp, there are many other games where you log in and just start fighting people. if you think you should have to plan, etc. then this change is going too far.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#616 - 2012-11-20 15:41:07 UTC
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
It seems from Hans' latest CSM update, that he's personally pushing for the plex timer in the overview change. I can't say enough how much i disagree with that change. The overview already gives out too much intel for free, there's no need to give it even more. It might lead to more fights, but simply having the system name flashing in the FW window showing that a plex is being run would do the same, without making it easy on people.

Pirates should have to scan plexes down in the first place, but it doesn't seem that will change. The militia scrubs that just jump around trying to split the lp from the plex will increase. People will be able to dscan, and have a much better idea if there's an acceleration gate camp or not, actually leading to less pvp. If you see 1 person there, and the timer is counting down, you automatically know that one person is inside, with perhaps cloakers, but you'll know from local how many people you have to worry about.

Timers on the overview is just a bad change. Simply have the system name in the FW window flash. The pvpers can go there and hunt the offenders down. Handing people a sign that says "here i am" is just an idiotic change.



We can already see the plexes on overview when you are in system. Now at least we can see if anyone is in the plex running the timer.

This change does not go far enough at all. The frequency of pvp in faction war is already dropping as it is no longer the the gold mine it used to be. Every militia member should know when its militiary complexes are attacked.

As far as handing people a sign saying "here I am," I can only say that if you wanted to stay hidden you shouldn't have attacked a military complex. There are plenty of ways to play "hide and seek" in eve. You can run missions, rat in belts, run sleeper sites etc etc. But the current system where you can openly attack an enemy military complex and not have that military know about it is what is idiotic.

They need to go much further in this direction if they really want faction war to be a unique avenue to frequent quality pvp.

Unfortunately the economic incentives are lopsided. When you add mechanics to encourage pvp like a timer rollback and notifications to a lopsided war you make it even more lopsided. So they created a new problem that they will need to resolve before they can accurately judge the mechanics intended to lead to pvp.




my guess is you didn't actually read my entire post, since i said the FW window show flash when a plex is being run in that system. Attacking a military complex and having the opposing militia arrive to defend it is one thing, having pirates have free intel for no reason is idiotic. Having your own militia wait until the last minute to crash the plex and split the lp is idiotic. atleast currently, you have to dscan to know which plex someone is in, and have to scout to know if they're in the plex or gate camping it, etc.

if you don't think you should have to work at all for your pvp, there are many other games where you log in and just start fighting people. if you think you should have to plan, etc. then this change is going too far.



We simply disagree. You think there is plenty of pvp in faction war sov warfare and think people should need to work more to get it. I think there is too little pvp in faction war sov warfare and it should naturally generate more.

I'm glad you agree that the militias should be notified when their military complexes are attacked.

As far as pirates also being notified of the amount on the timer I don't really care. They typically know you are there if they are undocked anyway.

As far as your complaining that your own militia might come and take half your lp at the last second. I am sorry I am not more sympathetic, but I find that slightly amusing. But yes if it becomes a problem perhaps something should be done. Such as give the lp to the fleet/pilot that started the timer last and sat in it until it finished. This is how ranks/standings used to be given I don't know why ccp changed this.


There are plenty of solutions for that problem without doing things that will decrease the amount of pvp.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Sheynan
Lighting the blight
#617 - 2012-11-20 16:51:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Sheynan
Wouldn't showing the plex timer to the opposing faction in system be just in the right spot ?

(So I plex is leaning towards Amarr - the timer is shown to Minmatar, a plex is leaning towards Minmatar - the timer is shown to Amarr, independant of defensive/ offensive plexing, timer is shown to no one else)


P.S: But after all, any timer, even if global is a good thing
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#618 - 2012-11-20 19:34:19 UTC
I would like to put something here that I've already told in page 7 of this thread. When I made that post, the tier changes were not implemented yet. With these changes this suggestion just makes more sense.

Quote:
Caerain had an idea about alerting plexing presence. I believe this can be connected to the upgrade level of the system.

At L1 there will be no alerts.
A L2 system wil alert if there are any offensive plexes open in system. On the FW tab these systems will have a different hue. When mouse hovers on the system normally there is only name.
A L3 system will make a list of open plexes sizes in the system and put it below name of system on mouseover.
A L4 will colorize those being actively run as green.
A L5 system will give you plex timers.

For example Lets assume Amarr are offensive plexing in Auga. There are 2 minors and a med open and there is a slicer in minor and a Omen Navy Issue in Med.

If Auga were a L1 system it would be just another system on the FW map.
If Auga were a L2 system its system color would turn from light blue to dark blue on FW map. (For defending side that is)
If Auga were a L3 system, when you get your mouse over it you would see the name followed by minor, minor, medium
If Auga were a L4 system, one of the minors on the list and the medium would turn green
If Auga were a L5 system, you would get the timer information along with the sizes.

So if you want to have an information network going on you should at least have L2. To see if the plexes are actively being ran or not would require the system to be minimum L4.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#619 - 2012-11-20 20:20:04 UTC
Or one could just K.I.S.S and add either an independent hunting tab to militia interface with below or add it as a mouse-hover popup in militia interface:
- Hostile plexing Y/N ... defenders can reship in system so size data should not be needed .. don't want to pamper folks after all.
- Plexes closed in the last 1 hr/ 6 hrs/ 12 hrs.

That is all you need. If 1-6-12hr tallies are high'ish the system is being targeted and will yield a fight, if low'ish probably not defender has to keep ships around area he wants to help protect.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#620 - 2012-11-20 22:16:54 UTC
Any sort of notification is better than no notification.

But i think a simple chat channel similar to our militia chat except players can not type in it will do.

I would simply give information like this:

"Our medium complex is being attacked auga"

When an enemy enters it. It could also give the general type of ship like destroyer.

or

"Our medium complex in auga is no longer under attack"

When an enemy leaves the plex. (use this for all the other options below as well when the someone leaves the militiary complex.)

Or

"our medium complex in kamela is being reinforced" When someone is doing a defensive plex for our side.

or

"The enemy is trying to remove our presence from the minor complex in Auga" when the enemy is running a defensive plex in a contested system.

or

"We are attacking a minor complex in auga" when we are doing an offensive plex.

The militias would then coodinate on coms which attacks need more reinforcements and which do not. They may have to sacrifice some plexes in order to gain others. it would add a whole strategic aspect to eve that it never had before. Where you actually have to decide how to assign troops instead of just telling everyone to get in the blob.

Good militias would likely break their map down into several sectors and have people try to cover that sector.

Yes it would be totally different than anything in eve right now. But there is no reason everything has to be the same.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815