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Active Skill Training - Would it be Possible?

First post
Author
Felsusguy
Panopticon Engineering
#1 - 2012-05-06 20:46:34 UTC
When people get to EVE Online, they see a scary reality. A world where you can increase efficiency in "skills" through neural uplinks but heaven forbid having your character learn the good ol' fashioned way is taboo and complete falseness.

So, I propose an action-enhanced training method where doing things temporarily increases skill training.

Doing certain actions will slightly increase a factor, which in this article I will call "Active Modifier". The name is not important, the idea I hope is. This factor adds up to a certain limit (debatable, perhaps 10 to 20%). That percentage would be added to your current skill training. Over time, this factor goes down.

Examples:

  • Shooting your guns at a target will increase most the active modifier of Gunnery skills
  • Shooting with specific guns increase specific skill active modifiers (i.e, Blaster Specialization, Small Hybrid Turret)
  • Shooting at longer ranges increases the active modifier of Trajectory Analysis and Sharpshooter
  • Shooting at moving targets increases Motion Prediction active modifier
  • Mining asteroids increases the active modifier of Mining (and Mining Barges or Exhumers, if your using them)
  • Increases the effectiveness of your fleet with your leadership skills increases the active modifier of the active skills
  • Using a ship (either for it's designated purpose or improvised purpose) would probably do the same thing
  • Having to armor tank will... well, I think you get the point now.


Of course, using them in different situations will increase active modifier faster, such as PVP, which will increase active modifier very fast.

Why? There are a few reasons

  1. To prevent the atrocity that is apathetic training of skills.
  2. It makes sense. Sure, neural uplinks do most of the work, but actively engaging in said activity should be beneficial.
  3. It would help noob players make sense of the world and actively engage in it, because an apathetic noob is the worst.

Please give open and honest, but only if constructive, feedback and criticism.

The Caldari put business before pleasure. The Gallente put business in pleasure.

MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2012-05-06 20:48:28 UTC  |  Edited by: MotherMoon
It works in dust, but I'm worried in eve it would be exploitable.

get a new alt for free 30 days, shoot him a bunch. Or have him shoot you a bunch to up your skills. Or even more basic, you'll have corps that spend all day shooting each other. it would make the game super boring and grindy. As to keep up to date you'd have to sit there for hours and hours getting shot at.

Back before warp to zero we had to put at least 2 hours a week into making warp to zero bookmarks, we even got paid for it.

I love the idea, but I worry that in eve it's just not going to work. Unless someone can come up with a really new kind of way of gaining skill points that hasn't been seen before in other games, we're stuck with what we got.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg

mxzf
Shovel Bros
#3 - 2012-05-06 20:50:12 UTC
Been suggested MANY times, it's still a horrible idea because it turns Eve into the grind many of us came to Eve to get away from, not to mention that it's extremely exploitable.
Felsusguy
Panopticon Engineering
#4 - 2012-05-06 20:54:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Felsusguy
mxzf wrote:
Been suggested MANY times, it's still a horrible idea because it turns Eve into the grind many of us came to Eve to get away from, not to mention that it's extremely exploitable.

I asked for constructive feedback and criticism. You and others seem to fail to explain how it would be bad in the detail required.

Further more it would seem I underestimated someone's ability to "tl;dr"

MotherMoon wrote:
It works in dust, but I'm worried in eve it would be exploitable.

get a new alt for free 30 days, shoot him a bunch. Or have him shoot you a bunch to up your skills. Or even more basic, you'll have corps that spend all day shooting each other. it would make the game super boring and grindy. As to keep up to date you'd have to sit there for hours and hours getting shot at.

Back before warp to zero we had to put at least 2 hours a week into making warp to zero bookmarks, we even got paid for it.

I love the idea, but I worry that in eve it's just not going to work. Unless someone can come up with a really new kind of way of gaining skill points that hasn't been seen before in other games, we're stuck with what we got.

Well, it's not like that at all. There would be systems in place to make sure it wasn't exploited, and it wouldn't require rigorous activity, just some. Like I said, it's not getting skillpoints, it's improving passive gain through real world experience once and a while.

The Caldari put business before pleasure. The Gallente put business in pleasure.

Hans Momaki
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-05-06 21:16:49 UTC
Scumbags all over the EVE universe dislike an active way to gain SP, cause they would lose the benefit of their SP - pumped clones they are having at the moment if they decide to not grind at all.

Since EvE is made for scumbags, and scumbags are the only ones getting heard..

I bet you get the point ;)

I would love to see active training, but CCP just sucks at designing games for a larger scale of ppl.
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#6 - 2012-05-06 21:18:10 UTC  |  Edited by: mxzf
Here, here's one of the more recent threads suggesting this exact same idea (which you didn't bother to search for): https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=100284&find=unread

As I said before, it's still a horrible idea.

Oh, and since you don't seem to know this yet, anything can be exploited. And in Eve, anything will be exploited. There is NO WAY to prevent such a thing from being exploited. I promise you that there are players out there which are smarter than you or CCP which can find a way to exploit it, there always are.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2012-05-06 21:18:32 UTC
Hans Momaki wrote:
Scumbags all over the EVE universe dislike an active way to gain SP, cause they would lose the benefit of their SP - pumped clones they are having at the moment if they decide to not grind at all.

Since EvE is made for scumbags, and scumbags are the only ones getting heard..

I bet you get the point ;)

I would love to see active training, but CCP just sucks at designing games for a larger scale of ppl.


Dust has active skilling noob

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg

MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2012-05-06 21:20:32 UTC
What if there was 5 permanent attribute points for each type that can gained through in game achievements?

removing learning implants of course or reducing attributes but i don't like the ladder.

Then players would gain faster passive training time by playing the game. but with a cap so it isn't exploited.?

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg

Felsusguy
Panopticon Engineering
#9 - 2012-05-06 21:23:55 UTC
mxzf wrote:
Here, here's one of the more recent threads suggesting this exact same idea (which you didn't bother to search for): https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=100284&find=unread

As I said before, it's still a horrible idea.

Oh, and since you don't seem to know this yet, anything can be exploited. And in Eve, anything will be exploited. There is NO WAY to prevent such a thing from being exploited. I promise you that there are players out there which are smarter than you or CCP which can find a way to exploit it, there always are.


No. That idea is not the same. Has your mother ever slapped you for misreading something horribly? I wish she had.

The Caldari put business before pleasure. The Gallente put business in pleasure.

mxzf
Shovel Bros
#10 - 2012-05-06 21:30:25 UTC
lol, it is effectively the same and the answer is that same. You're asking for more SP because you're doing something in game, which would be bad for the game. Please read that thread through if you'd like to learn why it's so horrible an idea.
Aleksander Erkkinen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-05-06 21:38:44 UTC
If the maximum % boost stayed under 2%, and there were plenty of sanity checks to prevent farming velators, I couldn't object too loudly. 10%, however, is absofreakinglutely absurd. Thing is, I don't see this actually adding anything. It doesn't grow eve or fix one of it's longstanding issues. It does sound like yet another bid for more SP. I wouldn't want devs wasting their time on it.
Felsusguy
Panopticon Engineering
#12 - 2012-05-06 21:40:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Felsusguy
mxzf wrote:
lol, it is effectively the same and the answer is that same. You're asking for more SP because you're doing something in game, which would be bad for the game. Please read that thread through if you'd like to learn why it's so horrible an idea.


I was suggesting a system where your passive skillpoint gain would be increased for engaging in a related activity.
His idea was to increase passive skillpoint gain while engaging in a related activity.

See the difference?

The Caldari put business before pleasure. The Gallente put business in pleasure.

Dr Prometheus
Gears of Construction
Gears Confederation
#13 - 2012-05-06 21:42:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Prometheus
Use it for each ship you fly, the more it survives the more advantages the ship (and crew) gets, when its destroyed you loose it.

For example and maxed out "leveled" ship is has 25% bonus of everything. (Just a random something.) (Excluding supercaps ;))

It also makes the it easier to fit in the crew and crew numbers.

Dude, where is my Quafe Megathron?

mxzf
Shovel Bros
#14 - 2012-05-06 21:44:57 UTC
Felsusguy wrote:
See the difference?


You added the word 'actively', which really doesn't mean anything in this context since both of them involve "engaging in a related activity" and engaging in something is, by its very nature, an action.
Felsusguy
Panopticon Engineering
#15 - 2012-05-06 21:59:33 UTC
mxzf wrote:
Felsusguy wrote:
See the difference?


You added the word 'actively', which really doesn't mean anything in this context since both of them involve "engaging in a related activity" and engaging in something is, by its very nature, an action.

You must be more of an idiot than I originally thought.
My idea doesn't increase skillpoint gain WHILE doing something, it increases skillpoint gain FOR doing something, even after you stop.

The Caldari put business before pleasure. The Gallente put business in pleasure.

Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-05-06 22:14:56 UTC
What you're not thinking about is that Eve already rewards players who play more than others.

While some people think that the primary goal in Eve is to train skills, I personally believe that our goal is isk.

The faster we earn isk, the sooner we get into the ships we want, or the more money we have to waist on getting blown up.

Someone who doesn't spend as much time grinding out isk as I do will be well behind me even if we have all the same skills.

We might both be able to fly a tengu, but not only am I going to be able to get into that tengu sooner that someone who plays less, but i'm also going to be able to dec it out with much more effective modules than that person is.

However, even though he may make less isk and take more time to be into that tengu than I am, Eve allows him to still be able to outperform me once he gets into that tengu by allowing the players to personally fit their ships.

I could have 3 billion into my tengu and he may have 1 billion into it, but if I have a crap fit, or he counters my fit, then he still stands a chance against me.
Lin Gerie
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2012-05-06 22:15:08 UTC
I disagree with EVERYONE saying this would turn eve into a grind fest. Only at the highest levels of play would this even have a chance of doing so (cap ship training and such). The skills simply don't take enough time for active training to be a problem, especially since this is just a boost to current skill training and not anything else.

The biggest obstacle at this point would be implementing it in a way that makes sense for every skill. It's relatively easy with gunnery or ship control but gets more difficult with refining or modules, science and other things. They would all need different things to help you level them up. Plus you would have to find a way that would help these skills without reducing their training time too much but still enough that it appears to help and probably would have to base it off the training multiplier as well.

For instance lets look at gunnery, which is actually still pretty complicated. If you wanted to make that an active skill that you can learn by firing. Okay, so if you're flying a cruiser and learning medium turrets which have a multiplier of 3x. So if you fire 1 medium turret at an enemy how many skill points do you get? What about if your shooting 8 medium turrets? Does it only count if you kill something? or does it count it based on damage done? What about shooting in vollies, does it count each volley?

What about skills that increase range or falloff? How would we work those?

Don't get me wrong I like the idea of something that you can actively do to make your character learn, but at this point it is just too difficult to implement on all skills.
Felsusguy
Panopticon Engineering
#18 - 2012-05-06 22:18:28 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
What you're not thinking about is that Eve already rewards players who play more than others.

While some people think that the primary goal in Eve is to train skills, I personally believe that our goal is isk.

The faster we earn isk, the sooner we get into the ships we want, or the more money we have to waist on getting blown up.

Someone who doesn't spend as much time grinding out isk as I do will be well behind me even if we have all the same skills.

We might both be able to fly a tengu, but not only am I going to be able to get into that tengu sooner that someone who plays less, but i'm also going to be able to dec it out with much more effective modules than that person is.

However, even though he may make less isk and take more time to be into that tengu than I am, Eve allows him to still be able to outperform me once he gets into that tengu by allowing the players to personally fit their ships.

I could have 3 billion into my tengu and he may have 1 billion into it, but if I have a crap fit, or he counters my fit, then he still stands a chance against me.

I know EVE rewards players that actually play, but still, it's somewhat silly the way skill training works if you take a step back and truly contemplate it.

The Caldari put business before pleasure. The Gallente put business in pleasure.

Thomas Gallant
Quafe Company Courier Shipping
#19 - 2012-05-06 22:29:48 UTC
What about a skill "booster" effect? that way people could translate money into a slight temperary improvement in skill gain, say a +1 willpower or whatever skill booster? That would let people who want to invest extra money in skilling be able to do it beyond just the +5 implants.
Felsusguy
Panopticon Engineering
#20 - 2012-05-06 22:31:45 UTC
Thomas Gallant wrote:
What about a skill "booster" effect? that way people could translate money into a slight temperary improvement in skill gain, say a +1 willpower or whatever skill booster? That would let people who want to invest extra money in skilling be able to do it beyond just the +5 implants.

That kind of defeats the original purpose of the idea. To help noobs make sense of EVE. But that idea sounds... interesting. I'm sure it's already been suggested before, though.

The Caldari put business before pleasure. The Gallente put business in pleasure.

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