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Easy solution to tech 2 BPO issue

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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#41 - 2012-05-05 13:15:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
Velicitia wrote:
the real trouble was T20

He gave out something like 10 crappy BPOs (like, 9 ammos and 1 destroyer) which were subsequently removed.
PR nightmare for sure, but actual trouble, economically speaking ? Hardly even a blip.
Even by count that's only ~0.1% of total T2 BPOs, and by value it's probably not even 0.01%.

Velicitia wrote:
meh maybe I'll be spacerich enough to purchase one of the other "semi-good" ones when they come up for sale.

I *am* spacerich enough to even buy a few of the actually "good" ones. Heck, I probably could scrounge up enough liquidity for SEVERAL of the best.
It would however be a horrible investment, and I'd never bother to buy one for myself.

I mean, it would still be horrible even if I would be 100% sure CCP would never improve invention nor buff sources of moongoo (as opposed to my expectations that they totally actually would).
Come on, seriously, all I would need would be a halfway decent market shift patch-wise (of which there's usually at least one easily predictable per year, sometimes two) and in one single fell swoop and minimal effort I'd be making more ISK (with the ISK I would have paid for the BPO) than what I could make with that same BPO in a couple of years of actual, constant and not very easy work.

So, again, T2 BPOs ? Horrible, horrible investment.
The only reason they sell as high as they do is silly people believing they're the holy grail or something.
Basically, they're a glorified e-peen.

Akita T evewiki profile | | | Build your own EVE-ready PC
Katja Faith
Doomheim
#42 - 2012-05-05 16:10:39 UTC
Akita T wrote:
So, again, T2 BPOs ? Horrible, horrible investment.
The only reason they sell as high as they do is silly people believing they're the holy grail or something.
Basically, they're a glorified e-peen.


This. I have a couple, and I honestly haven't even used them for almost a year. Probably sell them this summer. I have a niche that I work to great effect and profit with invention/manufacturing, and the T2 BPOs I have don't make me any money at all.
sitar seaton
State War Academy
Caldari State
#43 - 2012-05-05 17:28:51 UTC  |  Edited by: sitar seaton
Katja Faith wrote:


This. I have a couple, and I honestly haven't even used them for almost a year. Probably sell them this summer. I have a niche that I work to great effect and profit with invention/manufacturing, and the T2 BPOs I have don't make me any money at all.


If your t2 bpos dont make money for you then send them to me. I tried invention many times and, at least with ships, there is no money in them because t2 bpos can produce for way less than invention price and still make a profit. Until that situation changes then T2 bpos are a problem that needs to be rectified.

Allowing invention bpcs to mirror the underlying T1 bpo me/pe is the perfect solution. If that happens then I could care less what happens to t2 bpos because at least I could compete!!!!!!!!!!!
Haulie Berry
#44 - 2012-05-05 17:45:40 UTC
sitar seaton wrote:
Katja Faith wrote:


This. I have a couple, and I honestly haven't even used them for almost a year. Probably sell them this summer. I have a niche that I work to great effect and profit with invention/manufacturing, and the T2 BPOs I have don't make me any money at all.


If your t2 bpos dont make money for you then send them to me. I tried invention many times and, at least with ships, there is no money in them because t2 bpos can produce for way less than invention price and still make a profit. Until that situation changes then T2 bpos are a problem that needs to be rectified.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjwaqZfjIY
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#45 - 2012-05-05 18:13:47 UTC
You can't fix what's not broken.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Katja Faith
Doomheim
#46 - 2012-05-05 18:56:52 UTC
sitar seaton wrote:
If your t2 bpos dont make money for you then send them to me. I tried invention many times and, at least with ships, there is no money in them because t2 bpos can produce for way less than invention price and still make a profit. Until that situation changes then T2 bpos are a problem that needs to be rectified.


Just because YOU don't know what you're doing doesn't mean nobody does. I'd offer to take you into one of my corps to train you, but you obviously just want an Easy Button.
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
#47 - 2012-05-05 19:58:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Brewlar Kuvakei
Katja Faith wrote:
sitar seaton wrote:
If your t2 bpos dont make money for you then send them to me. I tried invention many times and, at least with ships, there is no money in them because t2 bpos can produce for way less than invention price and still make a profit. Until that situation changes then T2 bpos are a problem that needs to be rectified.


Just because YOU don't know what you're doing doesn't mean nobody does. I'd offer to take you into one of my corps to train you, but you obviously just want an Easy Button.


Easy button? You mean a T2BPO becuase that is the easy button.

The reasons for some items being unprofitable to invention are numerous and many are pointed out in the many forum posts but screaming that T2BPO has nothing to do with it just makes you look like tards. T2BPO may not be the crippling factor in all invention items but it is in some.
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#48 - 2012-05-05 20:40:28 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Katja Faith wrote:
sitar seaton wrote:
If your t2 bpos dont make money for you then send them to me. I tried invention many times and, at least with ships, there is no money in them because t2 bpos can produce for way less than invention price and still make a profit. Until that situation changes then T2 bpos are a problem that needs to be rectified.


Just because YOU don't know what you're doing doesn't mean nobody does. I'd offer to take you into one of my corps to train you, but you obviously just want an Easy Button.


Easy button? You mean a T2BPO becuase that is the easy button.

The reasons for some items being unprofitable to invention are numerous and many are pointed out in the many forum posts but screaming that T2BPO has nothing to do with it just makes you look like tards. T2BPO may not be the crippling factor in all invention items but it is in some.


Again, enough ranting and one-liners. Present your well thought-out argument of why they should be removed, the impact of their removal and how you would minimize those impacts for people not involved. DO YOUR HOMEWORK.
Haulie Berry
#49 - 2012-05-05 20:54:52 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Katja Faith wrote:
sitar seaton wrote:
If your t2 bpos dont make money for you then send them to me. I tried invention many times and, at least with ships, there is no money in them because t2 bpos can produce for way less than invention price and still make a profit. Until that situation changes then T2 bpos are a problem that needs to be rectified.


Just because YOU don't know what you're doing doesn't mean nobody does. I'd offer to take you into one of my corps to train you, but you obviously just want an Easy Button.


Easy button? You mean a T2BPO becuase that is the easy button.

The reasons for some items being unprofitable to invention are numerous and many are pointed out in the many forum posts but screaming that T2BPO has nothing to do with it just makes you look like tards. T2BPO may not be the crippling factor in all invention items but it is in some.


Please name one item that I am currently locked out of as an inventor that would become an attractive option in the absence of T2 BPOs.
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#50 - 2012-05-05 21:12:01 UTC
sitar seaton wrote:
I tried invention many times and, at least with ships, there is no money in them because t2 bpos can produce for way less than invention price and still make a profit.

That might be ONE of the factors which influences invention profitability (especially in low demand markets).
However, if you wish to claim that as the main (or, heck, maybe even only) reason why that happens, then how exactly would you explain the lack of profitability in inventing some ships that NEVER HAD ANY T2 BPOs ?
It obviously needs to be for some other reason than T2 BPO owners manufacturing stuff cheaper than inventors, since there are no T2 BPOs at all for those ships.
Now, if you can conceive of some other reasons why invention profitability sucks for items where T2 BPOs do not exist (and such reasons MUST exist for the observed reality to be, well, real), what makes you think those EXACT SAME reasons would not also act on invention profitability for ships where T2 BPOs do exist ? Logic pretty much forces you to conclude that they do, so your statement I quoted must be at least partially false.

Also, this : https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1247937#post1247937

Akita T evewiki profile | | | Build your own EVE-ready PC
sitar seaton
State War Academy
Caldari State
#51 - 2012-05-05 21:22:45 UTC
Akita T wrote:
how exactly would you explain the lack of profitability in inventing some ships that NEVER HAD ANY T2 BPOs ?


I have invented ships that have no T2 bpos and have made profits, so as far as I know there is nothing to explain. Please give profitability figures you get for these ships.

T2 ships that have T2 bpos are the problem, especially high market ships. There is no way an inventor can compete with a T2 bpo holder since the me/pe can be so high the production cost is very low and inventors are undercut out of production.
Katja Faith
Doomheim
#52 - 2012-05-05 21:55:11 UTC
sitar seaton wrote:
Akita T wrote:
how exactly would you explain the lack of profitability in inventing some ships that NEVER HAD ANY T2 BPOs ?


I have invented ships that have no T2 bpos and have made profits, so as far as I know there is nothing to explain. Please give profitability figures you get for these ships.

T2 ships that have T2 bpos are the problem, especially high market ships. There is no way an inventor can compete with a T2 bpo holder since the me/pe can be so high the production cost is very low and inventors are undercut out of production.


Wow, you really don't understand this topic at all, do you? IF you're not averse to learning something, I'd suggest you do your homework on markets, production costs, and how we actually manage to make profits in Industry in Eve Online. Yes, there's homework in there, and yes, there's math in there. IGNORE what I may or may not make on a single Command Ship (ignoring that I'm one person selling probably in one market compared to your FALSE assumption everyone selling Command Ships has a stack of T2 BPOs they work from), but concentrate on HOW I do it. The economics should become obvious to you, unless you're a) unwilling to do the work and b) just trolling.
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#53 - 2012-05-05 22:28:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Zifrian
sitar seaton wrote:
Akita T wrote:
how exactly would you explain the lack of profitability in inventing some ships that NEVER HAD ANY T2 BPOs ?


I have invented ships that have no T2 bpos and have made profits, so as far as I know there is nothing to explain. Please give profitability figures you get for these ships.

T2 ships that have T2 bpos are the problem, especially high market ships. There is no way an inventor can compete with a T2 bpo holder since the me/pe can be so high the production cost is very low and inventors are undercut out of production.

No, not really. Again, supply and demand.

Some T2 Ships with and without T2 BPOs: http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/7443/t2ships.jpg

All Data: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AukAV6sUNfRndExSenV2TVRWZEtGdS1iaEZBTDQ5UGc

Seems those Hulk BPO owners aren't having the effect on the market you want to think they are. Ishtar owners too.

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

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shar'ra matcevsovski
Doomheim
#54 - 2012-05-05 23:45:12 UTC
sitar seaton wrote:


T2 ships that have T2 bpos are the problem, especially high market ships. There is no way an inventor can compete with a T2 bpo holder since the me/pe can be so high the production cost is very low and inventors are undercut out of production.


tbh its complettly irrevelant for you as a inventor, if there is a BPO or not who eventually has a much better margin than you for for this specific item.

The only thing that is relevant for you is the sell price, wich simply has to be over your production costs to make any profit.

In theory, what most of you probably fear is, that he will sell below your production costs, but that would be almost as bad for him, as for an competing inventor seeling below his productions costs as both will lose money. No T2 BPO Owner would do that.


thats what it is about all the time, its just the pure envy of certain people that other players make more profit than they do, even if they dotn get cut off by them for anything.

shar'ra phone home
sitar seaton
State War Academy
Caldari State
#55 - 2012-05-05 23:45:15 UTC
Zifrian wrote:


Seems those Hulk BPO owners aren't having the effect on the market you want to think they are. Ishtar owners too.



For an individual producer it does not matter what affect t2 bpo owners have on the market, that is a stupid comment. What affects individual producers is the cost to produce and the current market rate. T2BPO owners have a much much much lower cost basis for producing t2 ships. That is what matters to the individual ship builder.

I am a producer, not a trader. Trading and market discussions belong in the market discussions section. This is Science and Industry.
shar'ra matcevsovski
Doomheim
#56 - 2012-05-06 00:02:58 UTC
sitar seaton wrote:
. T2BPO owners have a much much much lower cost basis for producing t2 ships. That is what matters to the individual ship builder.


ECO 101, supply and demand, you sell for prices that ppl are ready to pay for a product, not what certain players theoreticly could sell them for.Roll





shar'ra phone home
ReiAnn
Nova-Tek
#57 - 2012-05-06 00:48:54 UTC
So T2BPOs aren't more productive/better than invention.

So why does the game need them? Take them out.

People who have T2BPOs automatically have the upperhand.

To Invent with minimum costs:

1. I have to have access to a POS, cuz lets face it. NPC slots are never open for copying. So i have to have a corp with high standings or an alliance with null sec space.

2. I have to train all the skills necessary at the appropiate level for the invention. Takes TIME training and isk to buy the books.

3. If i want a decent chance at the invention, I need to train my skills to 4 or 5. Even MORE time in training.

4. I need to earn my own datacores, which requires high skills (not so bad since I should be training them for decent invention chances), but I have to farm standings. EVEN MORE TIME.

5. Datacores take TIME to harvest and I have to hope some *ssh*l* doesnt blow me up on a gate while I am transporting them all to the same location.

So even with perfect skills, you still only have like a 50/50 most of the time on the high priced items like ships and it takes me a hell of a long TIME to get to this point, and that is if I am only producing one T2 item. The more T2 items I want to build, the more datacore skills and research agents I need, which means additional accounts.

T2PBO owners just have to have the manufactoring skills and resources.
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#58 - 2012-05-06 00:51:27 UTC
sitar seaton wrote:
Zifrian wrote:


Seems those Hulk BPO owners aren't having the effect on the market you want to think they are. Ishtar owners too.



For an individual producer it does not matter what affect t2 bpo owners have on the market, that is a stupid comment. What affects individual producers is the cost to produce and the current market rate. T2BPO owners have a much much much lower cost basis for producing t2 ships. That is what matters to the individual ship builder.

I am a producer, not a trader. Trading and market discussions belong in the market discussions section. This is Science and Industry.

So your argument is, "They can make more profit than me. This is unfair."

Is that it? Seriously. Because I can't see ANY other problem in your twisted logic above.




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Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#59 - 2012-05-06 00:53:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Zifrian
ReiAnn wrote:
So T2BPOs aren't more productive/better than invention.

So why does the game need them? Take them out.

People who have T2BPOs automatically have the upperhand.

To Invent with minimum costs:

1. I have to have access to a POS, cuz lets face it. NPC slots are never open for copying. So i have to have a corp with high standings or an alliance with null sec space.

2. I have to train all the skills necessary at the appropiate level for the invention. Takes TIME training and isk to buy the books.

3. If i want a decent chance at the invention, I need to train my skills to 4 or 5. Even MORE time in training.

4. I need to earn my own datacores, which requires high skills (not so bad since I should be training them for decent invention chances), but I have to farm standings. EVEN MORE TIME.

5. Datacores take TIME to harvest and I have to hope some *ssh*l* doesnt blow me up on a gate while I am transporting them all to the same location.

So even with perfect skills, you still only have like a 50/50 most of the time on the high priced items like ships and it takes me a hell of a long TIME to get to this point, and that is if I am only producing one T2 item. The more T2 items I want to build, the more datacore skills and research agents I need, which means additional accounts.

T2PBO owners just have to have the manufactoring skills and resources.

Translation: Cry

Funny thing is, I've made billions from invention and my face looks like this: Big smile

Stop your god damn whining. Nobody cares.

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

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ReiAnn
Nova-Tek
#60 - 2012-05-06 01:05:15 UTC

Quote:
Stop your god damn whining. Nobody cares.


It's not whining. I am merely pointing out what everyone defending T2BPOs wanted someone to point out - the costs of invention. It's not saying you can't make money purely from invention, but let's not think for a moment T2BPOs don't have a benefit or why would CCP put them in. Why bother with coding the items or holding the lottery.

And you must care or why bother visiting the forum on T2BPOs unless you have some vested interest.