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@CCP: Extrinsic Damage Amplifier Balancing

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James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2012-05-03 08:08:20 UTC
July Oumis wrote:
Applied only to subcaps, meaning dedicated drone platforms, not for fighters.

Carriers can use any kind of drone (other than fighter-bombers), not just fighters.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2012-05-03 08:11:09 UTC
Agree with general sentiments, was really hoping CCP would break the damage mod mould with this, High slot mod with a good bonus, perhaps even active and requirements scaled with drone size.
Just Alter
Futures Abstractions
#23 - 2012-05-03 08:42:12 UTC
Agreeing with everyone else.

It's not a good mod.

The idea is good, the implementation is bad.

I say let's make it a high slot mod: but let it use a turret hard point!

In that way you wont have max gank ships as they have to trade guns for drone damage.
MalVortex
Kaladan Interstellar
#24 - 2012-05-03 09:03:09 UTC
Just Alter wrote:
Agreeing with everyone else.

It's not a good mod.

The idea is good, the implementation is bad.

I say let's make it a high slot mod: but let it use a turret hard point!

In that way you wont have max gank ships as they have to trade guns for drone damage.


There are a number of Drone ships without Gun hardpoints, or very few (Gila immediately springs to mind). The module is also not limited to just pure drone boats - there is no reason a drake couldn't fit one of these if it wanted to buff up its Warrior IIs (it would probably be a bad idea, but the option should be there). Consuming a highslot - any highslot - is a significant opportunity cost due to the high pressure for those slots.

On ships like the Dominix or Myrmidon, any highslot spent on an EDA (or any other utility module) is automatically one less gun that could be fit to the ship. That is a direct tradeoff in maximum damage. Even if you are only trading off utility highslots (such as found on the Ishtar), those highslots are still highly in demand for Neuts/Nos, Smarbombs, or a cloak. Each EDA fit reduces the ability to fit those wonderful modules, which is an opportunity cost not to be ignored. Since we are discussing a drone mod, you can't ignore the Drone Link Augmenter either as yet another module competing for those highslots (Gila's are painful without a DLA, and that's half your utility slots right there!).

I love the idea of making EDAs highslot, but making them consume actual turret/missile hardpoints is unnecessary and unfairly exclusionary to specific ships.
TheButcherPete
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#25 - 2012-05-03 09:05:39 UTC
Nooo don't switch it to a highslot, I need those for Drone Controls !

You guys should stop flying drone hulls that aren't Carriers :3

[b]THE KING OF EVE RADIO

If EVE is real, does that mean all of us are RMTrs?[/b]
July Oumis
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2012-05-03 09:21:00 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
July Oumis wrote:
Applied only to subcaps, meaning dedicated drone platforms, not for fighters.

Carriers can use any kind of drone (other than fighter-bombers), not just fighters.



The drone dmg mod only for subcaps and the sentry dmg and heavy speed only for subcap drone boats.

A carrier with 10-15 bonused ogres + dmg mods, would be a 50% dmg increase, or even more.

2500 DPS ratting Thantos incoming...
Just Alter
Futures Abstractions
#27 - 2012-05-03 09:58:47 UTC
MalVortex wrote:
Just Alter wrote:
Agreeing with everyone else.

It's not a good mod.

The idea is good, the implementation is bad.

I say let's make it a high slot mod: but let it use a turret hard point!

In that way you wont have max gank ships as they have to trade guns for drone damage.


There are a number of Drone ships without Gun hardpoints, or very few (Gila immediately springs to mind). The module is also not limited to just pure drone boats - there is no reason a drake couldn't fit one of these if it wanted to buff up its Warrior IIs (it would probably be a bad idea, but the option should be there). Consuming a highslot - any highslot - is a significant opportunity cost due to the high pressure for those slots.

On ships like the Dominix or Myrmidon, any highslot spent on an EDA (or any other utility module) is automatically one less gun that could be fit to the ship. That is a direct tradeoff in maximum damage. Even if you are only trading off utility highslots (such as found on the Ishtar), those highslots are still highly in demand for Neuts/Nos, Smarbombs, or a cloak. Each EDA fit reduces the ability to fit those wonderful modules, which is an opportunity cost not to be ignored. Since we are discussing a drone mod, you can't ignore the Drone Link Augmenter either as yet another module competing for those highslots (Gila's are painful without a DLA, and that's half your utility slots right there!).

I love the idea of making EDAs highslot, but making them consume actual turret/missile hardpoints is unnecessary and unfairly exclusionary to specific ships.


Quote:
On ships like the Dominix or Myrmidon, any highslot spent on an EDA (or any other utility module) is automatically one less gun that could be fit to the ship.


That's the point; otherwise you'd have dominix's with 3 mag stab and 3 eda, shield buffer in the mids and damage rigs.
It would push 2+k dps.

If you make them an high slot item (turret OR missiles hardpoint) you are exchanging turret/missile dps for drone dps, in that way the overall dps does not increase, but if you like to use drones and not turrets you actually have the choice to get to 1k dps; right now drones will never do more than 500dps.

The idea is, i repeat: exchange turret/missiles dps for drone dps.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2012-05-03 10:01:58 UTC
If you want fitting flexibility perhaps there is room for two types of damage mods, after all there are passive low slot tracking enhancers and active midslot tracking comps, no reason there can't be more than one mod.
July Oumis
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2012-05-03 10:04:45 UTC  |  Edited by: July Oumis
You can't compare Drone DPS to Missile or Turret DPS.

Turrets or bays hit while you are moving your ship and apply the damage. Drone either force you to stand still or have less real DPS, because you have to consider the flighttime.

If you want Drone only, you have to increase raw DPS to equal it out.

If you only use magstabs and extrinsics you will end up having an awful tracking, thus mitigating you EFT DPS. Your shiledtank would be weakened, because you need 2 tracking enhancers and 2 omnis if you use 3 dmg mods of each kind, to be effective.
July Oumis
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2012-05-03 10:41:02 UTC
[Dominix Navy Issue, Drones]
Large Armor Repairer II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Adaptive Hardener II
Extrinsic Damage Amplifier II
Extrinsic Damage Amplifier II
Extrinsic Damage Amplifier II

Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Drone Navigation Computer II
Drone Navigation Computer II
[empty med slot]
100MN Afterburner II

350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L

Large Sentry Damage Augmentor I
Large Drone Control Range Augmentor I
Large Anti-Explosive Pump I


Hobgoblin II x5
Ogre II x5
Garde II x5
Warden II x5

Dominix Navy Issue:

Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus: 15% bonus to drone hitpoints and damage per skill level. 7,5% bonus to drone MWD speed per skill level.

Would be in line with the Myrmidon.

I'd really like to fly it.
Just Alter
Futures Abstractions
#31 - 2012-05-03 10:53:53 UTC
July Oumis wrote:
You can't compare Drone DPS to Missile or Turret DPS.

Turrets or bays hit while you are moving your ship and apply the damage. Drone either force you to stand still or have less real DPS, because you have to consider the flighttime.

If you want Drone only, you have to increase raw DPS to equal it out.

If you only use magstabs and extrinsics you will end up having an awful tracking, thus mitigating you EFT DPS. Your shiledtank would be weakened, because you need 2 tracking enhancers and 2 omnis if you use 3 dmg mods of each kind, to be effective.



What you wrote it's not true.

Quote:
Turrets or bays hit while you are moving your ship and apply the damage. Drone either force you to stand still or have less real DPS, because you have to consider the flighttime.


Even drones hit while you're moving your ship,watch some pvp video of good drone users, nobody stand still at all.

About less real dps: true they have flight time, however once they're on the target their dps is much less reduced by sig/radial than that of missiles or turrets.

Quote:
If you want Drone only, you have to increase raw DPS to equal it out.

As much as i would like it this would not be good, because when your drones get to the target he would simply pop.

Quote:
If you only use magstabs and extrinsics you will end up having an awful tracking, thus mitigating you EFT DPS.

Against smaller ships or really fast ships maybe, not all of them, thus making the setup overpowered over slow and tanky ships.
Also good piloting can mitigate those things so again: in certain situation you'd be too powerful, and that's not good.

Quote:
Your shiledtank would be weakened, because you need 2 tracking enhancers and 2 omnis if you use 3 dmg mods of each kind, to be effective.


This is something you think and which may not necessarily be true at all.


tl;dr allowing guns dmg mods+drones dmg mods+full racks of guns could mean an ourageous amount of dps in certain situations and that is not acceptable.
Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#32 - 2012-05-03 11:03:33 UTC
in it's current state, it's STILL better to add two HMLs to the curse than this module.

Which makes me a little sad.

Also low-slot is awful, primarily because the vast majority of Drone boats are armor-based.
July Oumis
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2012-05-03 11:09:13 UTC  |  Edited by: July Oumis
Sentries force you to stand still, Heavies are very slow, if you have to hit something 30 km away. Drones are vulnerable to smartbombs and bombs.

If you get rid of the 5% dmg on guns and add these to Drones certainly a Domi, for example, would be overpowered?

If you get in rang with blasters + ogres and are able to web and scram your target, you're a lucky man and deserve it, to apply the damage.


Edit: Armor based Drones Boats already use damage mods, weakening their tank. You would just change the name nad purpose of them.
Perihelion Olenard
#34 - 2012-05-03 11:15:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Perihelion Olenard
It's interesting to see that even with a ship bonus to drone damage on the curse that it's still better to put ballistic controls on instead of extrinsics. The only ship that may get use out of an extrinsic in it's current state is the ishtar just because it has only 3 turrets.
Just Alter
Futures Abstractions
#35 - 2012-05-03 11:49:37 UTC


Making it an high slot(and turret/missiles) item would:


  1. increase the tank(mag stabs/bcu slots could be used to increase the tank)
  2. give drone users the ability to avoid training gunnery(or missiles) skills at all
  3. increase drone dps to such a point that it would equal that of turrets. (so 5 ogres/sentries+7 EDA in a bonused ship would do about 1200dps)
  4. make drones a scalable weapon system, not stuck at 500dps.


But i see i'm talking about something completely different here.

So sticking to reality: make it an utility high slot, the increase in dps wont be so high to overpower ships.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2012-05-03 12:01:47 UTC
I was looking at Drone Proteus, has the CPU to fit 250mm railguns and mods but still two mag stabs seems better than two Drone damage amplifiers.

Interestingly I suspect a T2 sentry rig and two T2 Damage Mods is better than two sentry rigs and two T2 damage mods due to stacking.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#37 - 2012-05-03 12:07:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Caellach Marellus
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Drone damage module - We were *very* conservative with the initial numbers and fully expected to up them from the 9/12% they currently are. So we will probably improve them in the near future (stats and/or CPU). But they will remain a low slot module.



https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1237157#post1237157

Chances are it's getting boosted, still it's going to be lowslot like all turret damage mods.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Just Alter
Futures Abstractions
#38 - 2012-05-03 13:37:51 UTC
Oh well, that ends it then.

Good module anyway, just not easy to adapt to.

A lot of fits will change to accomodate this.
Drew Solaert
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2012-05-03 14:05:22 UTC
For the moving it to the highslot arguement, just no. Plain no. Drones have a nasty habbit of going pop in PvP and some certain PvE enviroments. You lost all of your drones warping out? Fantastic just use your splash attack or something when you get caught in a compremising situation heading back to the nearest station/or leave the roam early.

I lied :o
Shish Tukay
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#40 - 2012-05-03 15:02:21 UTC
Drew Solaert wrote:
You lost all of your drones warping out? Fantastic just use your splash attack

You play badly and eve punishes you? *hugs for poor little diddums*

If you want to be safe, you can always not fit the module :P