These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Test Server Feedback

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

@CCP: Extrinsic Damage Amplifier Balancing

First post
Author
gfldex
#61 - 2012-05-04 17:38:01 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
I increased the damage bonus to 12% and 15% for t1 and t2 respectively.


All hail our new 1300dps domi overlords. Can we have drone damage implants too? (Read: I believe the addition of a drone damage mod was a bad idea 4 years ago (never made it past sisi) and still is.)

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.

TheButcherPete
Blackbase Incorporated
#62 - 2012-05-04 17:47:53 UTC
:DDD woot higher modifier, now if only we could get a Damage Modifier and a Damage bonus, sorta like a BCS, but no RoF bonus.

[b]THE KING OF EVE RADIO

If EVE is real, does that mean all of us are RMTrs?[/b]

PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#63 - 2012-05-04 17:49:40 UTC
gfldex wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
I increased the damage bonus to 12% and 15% for t1 and t2 respectively.


All hail our new 1300dps domi overlords. Can we have drone damage implants too? (Read: I believe the addition of a drone damage mod was a bad idea 4 years ago (never made it past sisi) and still is.)



Because Domi's are so used in PVP as it is. Roll

While we are discussing drones, can we get a look at the Acolyte's and Hornets so that they have an actual use?

I'd love to see it moved up to a high slot as well, as it is they have to play it carefully since drones are used on so many ships, shield and armor tanked so balancing what slot they go in is tricky. But with this, and the addition of more drone rigs, I'd be glad to see, it should definitely help drone boats. Especially Gallente which, lets admit, are still broken for pvp.

Cathrine Kenchov
Ice Cold Ellites
#64 - 2012-05-04 18:00:52 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
I updated the modules slightly, it should be out on Sisi no later than Monday.

I reduced the CPU slightly (to 30 and 35 for t1 and t2 respectively)

I increased the damage bonus to 12% and 15% for t1 and t2 respectively.

Unfortunately, due to how drones work in the backend, I can't affect their RoF. But we should be able to tweak the other numbers to make the module on par with the damage amplifiers for other weapon types.


Huh, interesting. The boost is slightly nicer, but these are still underpowered comparatively .

A boost in drone hp may make up for the lack in dps, since you cannot change the rof.

Thanks for the updates though!
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#65 - 2012-05-04 18:22:58 UTC
PinkKnife wrote:
While we are discussing drones, can we get a look at the Acolyte's and Hornets so that they have an actual use?


Hear, hear! Just the other day I was thinking I should really train Caldari and Amarr drone specialization to IV, but then I looked at their drones, laughed and said "No way."

Flein Sopp
Rational Chaos Inc.
Brave Collective
#66 - 2012-05-04 18:28:49 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
I updated the modules slightly, it should be out on Sisi no later than Monday.

I reduced the CPU slightly (to 30 and 35 for t1 and t2 respectively)

I increased the damage bonus to 12% and 15% for t1 and t2 respectively.

Unfortunately, due to how drones work in the backend, I can't affect their RoF. But we should be able to tweak the other numbers to make the module on par with the damage amplifiers for other weapon types.



Again, make them a highslot module so that they are useful to actual droneboat users and not just the EFT warriors.
Silly Slot
Phoenix Evolved Part Duo
#67 - 2012-05-04 20:03:43 UTC
gfldex wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
I increased the damage bonus to 12% and 15% for t1 and t2 respectively.


All hail our new 1300dps domi overlords. Can we have drone damage implants too? (Read: I believe the addition of a drone damage mod was a bad idea 4 years ago (never made it past sisi) and still is.)


LOL 1300dps domi's yes its possible but its also like the 1200 dps talos's range becomes the issue, if your talking OGRE's + BLASTERS i mean seriously who points a domi with ogre's at 0 lol, you realize how hard it is to apply DPS.

In addition drones need a bigger boost for drone boats why? BECAUSE drones can be DESTROYED, wow want to make that domi loose its effectiveness? Just point it at 30km, orbit, and pop all its ogre's before they can get to you, then take your time killing the domi ...

THAT is why the drone dps module should be = if not more effective thatn gun / missle boosts, and for that matter i believe missle buff modules shud be bigger than gun, do to the fact they have to deal with travel time in addition to ROF and DMG
Silly Slot
Phoenix Evolved Part Duo
#68 - 2012-05-04 20:04:17 UTC
Flein Sopp wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
I updated the modules slightly, it should be out on Sisi no later than Monday.

I reduced the CPU slightly (to 30 and 35 for t1 and t2 respectively)

I increased the damage bonus to 12% and 15% for t1 and t2 respectively.

Unfortunately, due to how drones work in the backend, I can't affect their RoF. But we should be able to tweak the other numbers to make the module on par with the damage amplifiers for other weapon types.



Again, make them a highslot module so that they are useful to actual droneboat users and not just the EFT warriors.


they wont do that, damage modules are a LOW SLOT MOD, that way you are forced to choose between a better armor tank, or more dps.
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#69 - 2012-05-04 20:09:39 UTC
Silly Slot wrote:
and for that matter i believe missle buff modules shud be bigger than gun, do to the fact they have to deal with travel time in addition to ROF and DMG


This is already compensated for in the fact that missiles do higher DPS once applied than turrets do.
MalVortex
Applied Agoraphobia
#70 - 2012-05-04 23:01:54 UTC
gfldex wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
I increased the damage bonus to 12% and 15% for t1 and t2 respectively.


All hail our new 1300dps domi overlords. Can we have drone damage implants too? (Read: I believe the addition of a drone damage mod was a bad idea 4 years ago (never made it past sisi) and still is.)


What on earth is with the hyperbole in this thread. Shield Gank Domis on TQ can do almost 1,400 DPS standard, and overheat up into the 1,500+ range. A 15% bump to Maxed out Ogre II's is all of 71 additional DPS. Two EDA's take that to 142 additional DPS. Oh yea, terribly OP~


@ CCP SoniClover:

I finished running the numbers on the new EDA. The reduced CPU is nice, but they are still catastrophic to Gila and Ishtar fittings. You *can* fit them, esp. with the new CPU rigs coming in, but they really require you to gut something else to fit them on the ship. Hell, my Gila on TQ runs 4x lowslots without any CPU consumption at all due to how tight that ship's CPU is ._.

At 15% Strength, the EDA is now sufficiently powerful that a Curse would fit them over BCUs. Yay. The damage gap is pretty minor however, and that Curse would still gain slightly more DPS by fitting 2x HML over 2x EDA (yes technically Hammerhead IIs have a 4dps advantage, but Hammerhead IIs are too slow for a Curse to use).

EDA's on a Pilgrim are... problematic. The ship is starved for slots at every level (highs, mids, lows, you name it), and dropping tank for damage mods - while a nice choice to finally make - is scary because pilgrims are thin, even with a full 5 tank slot. EDA's also run into a somewhat common opportunity cost decision - damage mods vs. guns. While it would look very funky, a single Neutron Blaster Cannon II on the pilgrim is capable of adding 50+ dps. To beat that blaster, you need to give up two low slots for EDA's for 15% EDA's to beat out a single unbonused blaster's additional damage. Personally, I'd much rather give up my small neut than lose two tanking mods.


As mentioned previously, the reduced CPU isn't enough to help the Ishtar and Gila. Sentry-nano versions of each of these ships would prefer SDA II rigs, as the SDA uses up a lot less CPU than an EDA does while granting the same DPS bonus to your sentries. To fit 2x EDA requires so much CPU that you usually must give up rails on the Ishtar, which completely negates your damage gains. Gila's are a bit more amicable to them, but the fits heavily depend on CPU rigs AND a litany of faction medslots to get the fitting to work (the need for a DLA on the Gila doesn't help anything here).

Brawling Ishtar's will be extremely hard pressed to fit EDA's due to their lack of low slots. With only 5 lows to tank with, they pretty much will need all of them to not just ~die~.

Myrms won't fit EDA's past some sort of weird 4+ damage mod shield gank fitting. Gyros add more dps on 220's than EDA's add to the 2/2/1 Thermal drone split. Using explosive drones or blasters will only exacerbate the DPS disparity between a real damage mod and the EDA. This is a bit of a moot point tho, as most myrms don't fit damage mods anyways.

Domis have too many fits to go through every possible Dominix fit. Just as with 12% EDA's, 15% EDA will still have fits that are used on the Domi. That said, most of those fits are going to be some variation of a pure shield-gank Domi, and they may not be used until *three* MFS are already in place (third mag stab adds more DPS than first EDA). For much more conservative Dominix fits, the EDA is basically a dead mod not worth fitting. Either they have guns and a MFS will add more, or they can add 1-2 guns adding more DPS than an EDA would, or the ship is some variant of pure tank (hive, hospital, etc) and the tradeoff for 15% damage is not worth the loss in DPS tanked.

Many domi fits, particularly hive-themed domis, would also prefer SDA rigs to EDA's. Same damage modifier, less important slot to grab it from. It does cost a bit more CPU on the Dominix than an EDA does, but most Domi's don't run into CPU trouble.



TLDR: Buffs make the EDA usable on the Curse, all other ships are highly suspect at best.

I'd recommend bumping their stats to this:
1) Cut CPU to 20/25tf
2) Bump DPS up to 16/20%

I have considered the options of adding ancillary effects to the drones, such as +HP, but all this will really accomplish is adding two :meh: effects together to make yet another underwhelming drone module. If the DPS modifier on the EDA is an insufficient reason to add it to your ship, a few more %HP isn't going to change the equation. in most circumstances a modest bump to drone HP is simply not going to matter (either your drones aren't going to get shot, or they are and a few extra HP won't save them). Most pilots would prefer to have their lows and CPU going to mods that will always give them a combat edge, not a "maybe sometimes" edge.

As such, if the damage modifier isn't competitive, the mod itself won't be competitive. HP modifiers can be tacked on if the damage modifier winds up in the "almost worth it" zone to sweeten the pot, but the EDA is not there yet.








Pesadel0
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#71 - 2012-05-04 23:06:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Pesadel0
Flein Sopp wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
I updated the modules slightly, it should be out on Sisi no later than Monday.

I reduced the CPU slightly (to 30 and 35 for t1 and t2 respectively)

I increased the damage bonus to 12% and 15% for t1 and t2 respectively.

Unfortunately, due to how drones work in the backend, I can't affect their RoF. But we should be able to tweak the other numbers to make the module on par with the damage amplifiers for other weapon types.



Again, make them a highslot module so that they are useful to actual droneboat users and not just the EFT warriors.


Yeah i mean you can´t tank in the meds no can´t you?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2012-05-05 00:04:43 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
I updated the modules slightly, it should be out on Sisi no later than Monday.

I reduced the CPU slightly (to 30 and 35 for t1 and t2 respectively)

I increased the damage bonus to 12% and 15% for t1 and t2 respectively.

Unfortunately, due to how drones work in the backend, I can't affect their RoF. But we should be able to tweak the other numbers to make the module on par with the damage amplifiers for other weapon types.

Is there a specific reason for wanting to keep their overall effect on damage output lower than their counterparts for other weapons systems?
Pesadel0
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#73 - 2012-05-05 00:15:51 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
I updated the modules slightly, it should be out on Sisi no later than Monday.

I reduced the CPU slightly (to 30 and 35 for t1 and t2 respectively)

I increased the damage bonus to 12% and 15% for t1 and t2 respectively.

Unfortunately, due to how drones work in the backend, I can't affect their RoF. But we should be able to tweak the other numbers to make the module on par with the damage amplifiers for other weapon types.

Is there a specific reason for wanting to keep their overall effect on damage output lower than their counterparts for other weapons systems?



Maybe perhaps it would make them overpowered,.
Selaya Ataru
Phalanx Solutions
#74 - 2012-05-05 00:31:19 UTC
Pesadel0 wrote:
Flein Sopp wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
I updated the modules slightly, it should be out on Sisi no later than Monday.

I reduced the CPU slightly (to 30 and 35 for t1 and t2 respectively)

I increased the damage bonus to 12% and 15% for t1 and t2 respectively.

Unfortunately, due to how drones work in the backend, I can't affect their RoF. But we should be able to tweak the other numbers to make the module on par with the damage amplifiers for other weapon types.



Again, make them a highslot module so that they are useful to actual droneboat users and not just the EFT warriors.


Yeah i mean you can´t tank in the meds no can´t you?


Getting them into high slots would make them more attractive for a lot of fittings.
If they use up a low slot, only a few dedicated drone ships will use them.
with highslots you might see them a lot more on BCs and BS and generally have a lot more options.
I like more options.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2012-05-05 01:05:32 UTC
Pesadel0 wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
I updated the modules slightly, it should be out on Sisi no later than Monday.

I reduced the CPU slightly (to 30 and 35 for t1 and t2 respectively)

I increased the damage bonus to 12% and 15% for t1 and t2 respectively.

Unfortunately, due to how drones work in the backend, I can't affect their RoF. But we should be able to tweak the other numbers to make the module on par with the damage amplifiers for other weapon types.

Is there a specific reason for wanting to keep their overall effect on damage output lower than their counterparts for other weapons systems?



Maybe perhaps it would make them overpowered,.

Given all the other limitations and special cases around drone combat I'm not sure a decent damage mod would suddenly make them OP.
Alice Katsuko
Perkone
Caldari State
#76 - 2012-05-05 01:15:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Alice Katsuko
CCP SoniClover wrote:
I updated the modules slightly, it should be out on Sisi no later than Monday.

I reduced the CPU slightly (to 30 and 35 for t1 and t2 respectively)

I increased the damage bonus to 12% and 15% for t1 and t2 respectively.

Unfortunately, due to how drones work in the backend, I can't affect their RoF. But we should be able to tweak the other numbers to make the module on par with the damage amplifiers for other weapon types.


Definitely looking forward to seeing how it works in practice. The CPU requirements are now in line with all other damage mods aside from Ballistic Control Units, which require 35 and 40 CPU for T1 and T2 versions, respectively. The damage bonus is somewhat low on paper, but drones have certain advantages and disadvantages over other weapons which may mitigate that. So it may make sense to release the mod in its currently updated state and see what players do with it.

On a somewhat related note, will there be rigs for boosting the damage of non-sentry drones? And will this module suffer stacking penalties from the Sentry Damage Augmentor rig?
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#77 - 2012-05-05 07:53:12 UTC
They should suffer stacking penalties in fact at the new percentages they may obsolete the sentry rigs, why use that much calibration for a T2 sentry rig for the same bonus at T1 they will stack last.

I suspect drone proteus is getting the biggest buff, should be able to fit 3 omnis, 3 damage mods, dla and tank.  May move it to number two PVE slot for T3. 500+ Sentry DPS at 50km + 250mm rails.
Pesadel0
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#78 - 2012-05-05 08:05:27 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Pesadel0 wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
I updated the modules slightly, it should be out on Sisi no later than Monday.

I reduced the CPU slightly (to 30 and 35 for t1 and t2 respectively)

I increased the damage bonus to 12% and 15% for t1 and t2 respectively.

Unfortunately, due to how drones work in the backend, I can't affect their RoF. But we should be able to tweak the other numbers to make the module on par with the damage amplifiers for other weapon types.

Is there a specific reason for wanting to keep their overall effect on damage output lower than their counterparts for other weapons systems?



Maybe perhaps it would make them overpowered,.

Given all the other limitations and special cases around drone combat I'm not sure a decent damage mod would suddenly make them OP.



You are nor sure i'am pretty sure it would , you never saw a fleet of domis with a massive drone bonus , and what special cases around drone combat do you mean?The ability to lock send drones and be emune to ewar?Tracking disrupters ?Nos neut?

The Only thing dependent of drones are the ability of us to kill them, and to outrun them and gain range.
Rek Seven
Galactic Deep Space Industries
Warped Intentions
#79 - 2012-05-05 13:49:49 UTC
I think it would be better if the drone damage mods were a high slot module that took up power instead of cpu. Then drone boats like the Dominix could put out good dps with drons and have the same tank as before.

The current implementation is really dumb CCP. What?
Thomas Gallant
Quafe Company Courier Shipping
#80 - 2012-05-05 14:50:19 UTC
I agree, high slot damage module.

on another note, invention for the Blueprint should be changed to use Gallente skills and items, instead of the caldari stuff used now, also the missile launcher icon for the item isn't really the best icon for it.