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10,000 PLEX from Dr. E?

Author
Florestan Bronstein
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2012-03-23 11:54:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Florestan Bronstein
hmm.... we already had that discussion Pirate

Alain Kinsella wrote:
Florestan Bronstein wrote:
Rasz Linlower wrote:
the price how? by making plex scarce?

... by having stocked up on PLEX yesteryear Roll

there are times when you can buy without increasing prices significantly and there are times when you can crash a market by selling relatively small quantities.

If CCP were modern bankers they would just borrow some PLEX from stocks on inactive accounts, sell them and pledge to replace them once prices are lower. Big smile

edit: actually I like this idea a lot - allow EyjoG to spawn PLEXes from nothing up to the amount of PLEX items on inactive/unsubscribed accounts (minus safety margin).
He can sell these to lower PLEX prices and he can buy back PLEX from the market to increase his room for further manipulations. If the net number of PLEX on inactive accounts decreases and he had fully utilized his allowance before he has to destroy PLEX to get back within his allowance. If the net number of PLEX on inactive accounts increases he gets the right spawn more PLEX.
If he gets caught on the wrong side of the market and lacks the ISK to buy back PLEXes he can apply for the permission to create some ISK to get back within the allowance (offering in-depth explanation/justification of his failure and hopefully receiving a stern talk by his superior).

This would give EyjoG room for operation without increasing CCP's "real" liabilities.

I believe I mentioned in another thread that PLEX in permabanned (or any banned) accounts could also be fair game. That would give them a decent starting supply, and once the account(s) established they can just go back and forth per an earlier post.

http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1526384&page=2#59
Lucinda Hamu
Doomheim
#22 - 2012-03-23 13:03:32 UTC
Why not just destroy them and keep everything as is?
Steve Celeste
Doomheim
#23 - 2012-03-23 13:10:18 UTC
CCP can just spawn PLEX at will, so I doubt they care about "recycling" PLEX that are stuck on banned accounts.
I would consider them destroyed.
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2012-03-23 13:18:01 UTC
Steve Celeste wrote:
CCP can just spawn PLEX at will, so I doubt they care about "recycling" PLEX that are stuck on banned accounts.
I would consider them destroyed.


They actually can't, not without major consequences to the economic system.
David Forge
GameOn Inc.
#25 - 2012-03-23 13:30:38 UTC
Not to mention that each spawned PLEX is gametime that nobody paid for and costs CCP money.
Ninyania alCladdyth
McLuvin AstroDynamics
#26 - 2012-03-23 13:47:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Ninyania alCladdyth
nm, misread the post... caffiene deprivation induced dyslexia FTL
Acac Sunflyier
The Ascended Academy
Space Potatoes Alliance
#27 - 2012-03-23 14:04:21 UTC
David Forge wrote:
Not to mention that each spawned PLEX is gametime that nobody paid for and costs CCP money.


People already paid for them! They are just never going to get used cause of the perma ban.
Claire Voyant
#28 - 2012-03-23 14:36:52 UTC
Acac Sunflyier wrote:
David Forge wrote:
Not to mention that each spawned PLEX is gametime that nobody paid for and costs CCP money.


People already paid for them! They are just never going to get used cause of the perma ban.

I think it is important to remember that all those PLEX were bought by ordinary players for real-life cash, and then sold on the market for isk. Someone involved in RMT bought them for money laundering reasons or for sale to an isk purchaser. Taking them out of the game permanently means that those PLEX will never be used by another ordinary player. Banning people involved in RMT should not really effect the legitimate PLEX market in that way.

I think Dr. E sees the dilemma he has. If he sells the PLEX on the market it will make an isk sink, but it will reduce the potential revenue of CCP. If he doesn't sell them, then it drives up the price of PLEX above the level that would ordinarily be produced by normal supply and demand.

I think he will go for a win-win solution and just stick with this announcement that these PLEX exist and leave on the table the idea that he might sell them at some point in the future if prices get too high. Just like he did last year when he mentioned the idea of the "Eve Central Bank" buying up PLEX when prices got to low.

My guess is that he won't act in either direction unless the price of PLEX becomes a "crisis" in one way or another.
David Forge
GameOn Inc.
#29 - 2012-03-23 15:46:50 UTC
I am referring to spawned ISK as opposed to those taken from these accounts. Perhaps I misunderstood what Steve Celeste was saying?
Steve Celeste
Doomheim
#30 - 2012-03-23 15:50:08 UTC
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:
Steve Celeste wrote:
CCP can just spawn PLEX at will, so I doubt they care about "recycling" PLEX that are stuck on banned accounts.
I would consider them destroyed.


They actually can't, not without major consequences to the economic system.

They can and they did.

Remember those 2 plex that were rewarded to the guys that killed a GM and looted an enigma?
Do you really think they bought those 2 plex?

They just pushed a button and spawned them ingame.

That does not mean that I agree with that process, it could indeed have economic consequences, and I hope that internal affairs was looking over their shoulders as they were doing that....
Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
#31 - 2012-03-23 15:53:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tasko Pal
I don't get at all the point of this thread. If there's a problem with destroying these PLEX (and there isn't), then leave them on the banned accounts till the heat death of the universe. To elaborate a little on my aside, there's no issue with destroying PLEX that aren't on playable accounts. They're out of the system and anything done with them, that keeps them out of the system is irrelevant to us. CCP just got itself roughly $150k of money without having to extend a single account.

In fact, pulling a PLEX from such an account and selling to the market is much like creating one and selling it. The only difference is that in the former case there is a sort of cap on how many you can thus sell. It's worth noting here, that if CCP starts selling PLEX in this way, then it's going to be impossible to distinguish PLEX from banned accounts from created PLEX. No offense to CCP, but if they really are proposing to sell PLEX from perma-banned accounts, then they could just as well be selling PLEX created from thin air. This opens a box that I think we really ought to be careful about opening.

Added: I forgot that CCP has ventured across this line before with PLEX looted from GM ships. It still strikes me that 10k (and counting) PLEX can hide a lot of PLEX creation.

As to the warping of the market from the banned players? It'll settle out in a few weeks. I don't see the point of warping the market more by selling PLEX that no longer belong to an active player.
Claire Voyant
#32 - 2012-03-23 17:52:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Claire Voyant
It is very simple. They were put into the game through legitimate player action. They were removed from the game by CCP's actions. Since the banned players had intended on reselling the PLEX, removing them from the game has an effect on the PLEX market.

Unlike everything else in Eve, PLEX are not created in game. They are created by real people making a real-life purchase through an out-of-game process. If they were destroyed by player action (e.g. destroyed in cargo) that would be one thing, but removing them from the game hurts players who need to buy those PLEX to pay for their subscriptions.

If you are sitting on a large pile of PLEX you may feel differently, but CCP needs to be very careful about what they do with PLEX. I applaud their honesty in this regard. I seem to recall some mention of this in the CSM minutes, and if so I thank the CSM for holding their feet to the fire.

EDIT: A review of the December CSM Summit Minutes notes that there was an NDA restricted conversation with Dr. Eyog about an issue with PLEX that would be presented at the Fanfest. I know they don't always stick to their promised timelines, but it does seem likely that this was the issue discussed with the CSM in December.

CCP is moving very big into the micro-transaction model with Dust and you can say that they are betting the company on this revenue model. I don't think they want to screw this up.
Adunh Slavy
#33 - 2012-03-23 18:03:45 UTC
As he stated the process will be rather open and information will be released in a timely manner. I doubt anyone will be hit with any terrible surprises. On that note of disclosure, I'm not involved in the PLEX market, I subscribe by the year, so I don't have any horses in this market.

I would caution expecting much price rise. The moral suasion, as Claire hinted will have an impact and 10,000 PLEX to cap the market at whatever level they decide is good, isn't something to be ignored. There's only one place that asset can go, on the market.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#34 - 2012-03-23 18:08:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Probably will release them on the market as certain levels are reached. I doubt they will dump them on the market all at once.


What happened in the period between Jan 18 and Feb 9 is compatible with an "experimental" slow banned accounts PLEX release into the market.

In order to see actual ECB action we should have BOJ or SCB alike scenarios, where price is steadily trending up / down and the interventions are visible like a slap in face.

The Jan 18 reaction is indeed odd, as an upswing got "shaved". Yet it's not a tangible proof, it could just be the market deciding BRN 500 was the equilibrium for that time.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#35 - 2012-03-23 18:38:00 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:

I would caution expecting much price rise. The moral suasion, as Claire hinted will have an impact and 10,000 PLEX to cap the market at whatever level they decide is good, isn't something to be ignored. There's only one place that asset can go, on the market.


10k sounds like a lot - but how many people bought the HD stream? The number I heard (while not paying strict attention) was about 5000 people ponied up a PLEX to watch the stream?
Adunh Slavy
#36 - 2012-03-23 19:02:14 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
10k sounds like a lot - but how many people bought the HD stream? The number I heard (while not paying strict attention) was about 5000 people ponied up a PLEX to watch the stream?



That's the number given in the presentation. As for the HD, I don't know. Might be a mention in events and gatherings forum .

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
#37 - 2012-03-24 00:58:10 UTC
Claire Voyant wrote:
It is very simple. They were put into the game through legitimate player action. They were removed from the game by CCP's actions. Since the banned players had intended on reselling the PLEX, removing them from the game has an effect on the PLEX market.


And the banned holders of those PLEX probably obtained the PLEX through extensive botting. Even though your observations are correct, I don't think it's a good idea for CCP to be selling PLEX under these circumstances. Keep in mind that they'll probably will hold onto this PLEX longer than the market disturbance from banning these players will last.
Acac Sunflyier
The Ascended Academy
Space Potatoes Alliance
#38 - 2012-03-24 01:00:37 UTC
Tasko Pal wrote:
Claire Voyant wrote:
It is very simple. They were put into the game through legitimate player action. They were removed from the game by CCP's actions. Since the banned players had intended on reselling the PLEX, removing them from the game has an effect on the PLEX market.


And the banned holders of those PLEX probably obtained the PLEX through extensive botting. Even though your observations are correct, I don't think it's a good idea for CCP to be selling PLEX under these circumstances. Keep in mind that they'll probably will hold onto this PLEX longer than the market disturbance from banning these players will last.



Well, wouldn't the fact that the isk is already running around meant that CCP selling them would take the equivalent isk out of the market? The fact that, say CCP Grayscale, would sell them would mean that xxx million isk is given to CCP and then the isk would be out of the market.
Tebb1288
Firework Industries
#39 - 2012-03-24 02:18:49 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:

I would caution expecting much price rise. The moral suasion, as Claire hinted will have an impact and 10,000 PLEX to cap the market at whatever level they decide is good, isn't something to be ignored. There's only one place that asset can go, on the market.


10k sounds like a lot - but how many people bought the HD stream? The number I heard (while not paying strict attention) was about 5000 people ponied up a PLEX to watch the stream?


5000 PLEX or so may have been spent on the HD package, but there were quite a few innovated people who were purchasing the stream, selling the ship and shirt, and using the profit off of that to purchase another stream, sell, repeat.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#40 - 2012-03-24 04:26:19 UTC
Tebb1288 wrote:

5000 PLEX or so may have been spent on the HD package, but there were quite a few innovated people who were purchasing the stream, selling the ship and shirt, and using the profit off of that to purchase another stream, sell, repeat.


Which is a heck of a lot of PLEX leaving the game forever in a short period of time.

Demand > Supply = Prices Rise in EVE

The 10k PLEX held by CCP now (consider it "seized assets") would allow them to remove about 4-5 trillion ISK from the economy as an ISK sink. Which may not be a bad goal.
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