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GMs - Please weigh in on the boomerang maneuver. Exploit (y/n)?

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Kelvan Hemanseh
Hole Exploitation Inc.
#1 - 2012-03-21 02:52:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Kelvan Hemanseh
Can we get a ruling on this instead of just locking the thread and saying we need a GM ruling. One would think because both of you work for the same company you could just point a GM to the thread instead of leaving us all wondering.

The thread is here what I'm asking about is the ganking technique described in the first few posts:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=83644&find=unread

Is doing this considered an exploit?
Tikktokk Tokkzikk
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#2 - 2012-03-21 03:05:21 UTC
If it is an exploit, we're just one step closer to WOW in space.

I really hope CCP change their cearbear direction. If not, I'll have to re-think my yearly subscription.
Raiz Nhell
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-03-21 03:28:10 UTC
As a hardcore carebear I do not think its an exploit...

If you make a mistake at any time you will get caught and blown up...
Eventually you will get blown up... CONCORD will get you... its just how much damage can you do before that happens...

Its just a crime spree rather than one hit...

There is no such thing as a fair fight...

If your fighting fair you have automatically put yourself at a disadvantage.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-03-21 03:46:06 UTC
I don't see any reason at all for this to be an exploit.
Concord do end up killing you so i don't see an issue.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Nathan Jameson
Grumpy Bastards
#5 - 2012-03-21 04:30:00 UTC
If this becomes an exploit, then people are going to start placing caps on how much ISK damage you're allowed to do before CONCORD shows up.

Keep piracy alive!

http://www.wormholes.info
EnslaverOfMinmatar
You gonna get aped
#6 - 2012-03-21 04:51:52 UTC
It's not an exploit because tornadoes can be prevented from warping by fitting a warp disruptor on hulks/mackinaws/orcas. Miners should just mine in tight packs.

Every EVE player must read this http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=29-01-07
Kazacy
BACKFIRE Squad
#7 - 2012-03-21 05:28:38 UTC
Imo clearly it's not an exploit; he lose the ship to Concord in the end wich it's fine. I fail to see in EULA where it's clearly writen it's mandatory to lose ship after the first kill just lose ship that's all.
Ajita al Tchar
Doomheim
#8 - 2012-03-21 05:39:43 UTC
I also don't think the warping around thing is an exploit. I do think that unfitting your crap in an Orca is kind of dodgy, but personally I'm of the opinion that using an Orca's services (docking, fitting, etc) should be allowed, but it also should result in the Orca incurring GCC. Same for carriers that pull the same shenanigans in low sec. It would make sense: help a criminal get on with their crime-doing and you become one by extension.

And the OP of the Tornado thread did say that he can't seem to warp up and down the belt forever, CONCORD does catch up with him. So, working as intended..?

This technique takes skill, practice and preparation, and you can expect that some first-time ganker will fail at it. By repeated ganking you also make your pod a valid player target in high sec, and since you put stuff in your brain to allow you to warp out faster, you're also risking that money. And finally, come on, pay some attention to the game even when mining! If you see a red something warp up and down the belt out of the corner of your eye, why the hell would you keep mining where you are? One gank in the belt should be your cue to leave for a bit and be thankful that you weren't the target. Mine with friends, have someone fit a warp disruptor for ****'s sake, a GCC person is a valid target for anyone in your fleet. It's not that hard. If mining with alts, give alts some warp disruptors. But for this to work, of course, you'd still need to pay attention to mining. Obviously, botters need not apply.

But people don't mine to be entertained by the process of mining, for the most part, so not paying attention is to be expected. Something should change, but I don't think that change should be aimed at nerfing the Tornado boomerang.
Kelvan Hemanseh
Hole Exploitation Inc.
#9 - 2012-03-21 05:46:49 UTC
Ajita al Tchar wrote:
I do think that unfitting your crap in an Orca is kind of dodgy, but personally I'm of the opinion that using an Orca's services (docking, fitting, etc) should be allowed, but it also should result in the Orca incurring GCC. Same for carriers that pull the same shenanigans in low sec. It would make sense: help a criminal get on with their crime-doing and you become one by extension.


As much as I agree with you here I'm not trying to get into a discussion here as much as demand a clarification.

CCP Guard wrote:
Evading Concord is dodgy business. The GMs will make the call on whether this is an exploit or not, until then I'm locking the thread.


That can of worms is what I want closed, give us a ruling before anyone gets banned for something that isn't well defined in the first place.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#10 - 2012-03-21 06:01:03 UTC
I never did a suicide kill in my Eve life, and avoid PVP (because I can't survive - check the Kbs), and I don't think it's an exploit.

Look, to be honest, this is the only game with consequences that matter. I can do WOW PVP all day, though I stopped playing in 2007, rack up honor points or whatever they were called, and not lose a thing except arrows (beast spec Hunter FTW).

Eve is still a game, but a hard game, and I pay for that game and like it like that even when I lose and get cheesed over that. Whereas I don't expect to go mining with an empty rack of midslots, and I would be first in line to point out some mechanics that favor bubble and blobs camps that should change, further nerfing do suicide attacks at this point is going to go too far.

We have a world that is full of people who think in terms of "it will never happen to me". They do that in RL. Because they think "it" will never happen to them, they actually facilitate a lot of problems in this world. If I could get everybody in the world to play this game and get suicided it just might, even for a moment, generate a neural pathway that is counter to this "never happen to me" BS and finally wake them out of their sleepwalking.

I am a lone wolf in this game. I spend more time running, and anything other than running means losing. But even I don't want to see this game made easier.

The day will come when someone will see my pimped drake pull up on station in structure and pop it, and I just about expect that to happen every time, just like I worry when taking a long trip without tools, or doing a security job without a backup gun - this game is where I practice the mindset that helps me in RL. Please don't let this game change.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#11 - 2012-03-21 06:36:10 UTC
I'm kind of a fatalist on this stuff. Even if its 'not an exploit', after seeing that thread get locked so quickly - I'm sure it will be stealth-nerfed out of existence soon.

The 'means' are not the issue here. There is no hacking involved. This isn't 'monkeysphere'. This is not 'evasion'.
Its simply min-maxing a goddamn Tornado to squeeze out a bit more efficiency while under GCC. You are using a 50M ISK hull - - its got to be able to do something that a 1 Million ISK Catalyst cannot.

No - CCP is making rulings based on the 'ends' - carebears dying, gankers profiting = must be nerfed.....in spite of all the other drawbacks you have to deal with.

Server-client lag, guaranteed loss of ship, loss of insurance, local radar, blue wreck lootable by anyone, engaged at will and poddable by anyone, 50% drops (but nothing from Orcas and pods), pop-ups out the ass, and of course, miners can simply choose to tank and thwart your will. About the only advantage left is being able to choose when and where you strike.

And heck, I think TEARS would have been happy sticking with mission looting/baiting out of Orcas, but repeated nerfs to that has invariably pushed many of us into ganking, because its all thats really left.

FREE GANKING TIP SECTION, DEVS/GMs TAKE NOTE for future nerfs
Oh, and I've had a few questions about this - I might as well give a few tips on how to properly unfit your gankships before Concord death. The DEV, after all, only referred to the 'boomerang' maneuver, not the use of the Orca's fitting service while GCC'd.

My take: Carebears get to hide 'unscannable/unlootable valuables in the Corporate hangar bay. But CCP hasn't seen it fit to nerf that little 'exploit'. So, IMO, gankers should have the same opportunity to unfit ganking mods at will.

CCP's policy is that: You must lose your ship. There is no 'rule' that says you must lose your mods. After all, generally half of your mods survive Concord death currently. If CCP was concerned about them, they'd have made Concord kills destroy ALL mods - as in self-destruction. Oh hell, I shouldn't have said that - guess whats coming up in the next patch. Roll

-While approaching your Orca, prep your guns for unfitting first!

1. Before landing 'unload to cargobay' the ammunition first. (otherwise your drag and drop will move the ammo!!!)
2. Then ungroup your guns, using the small 'grouping' button provided next to the highslots. (this avoids a mandatory popup)
3. Land, and open the Corporate Cargo bay. (make sure the Orca is configured for it...hint, its a checkbox)
3. With all your turrets ungrouped and unloaded, you can easily drag and drop them one at a time into the Orca.
4. Do not drag and drop too quickly, wait for each movement to complete before starting the next, or you'll just spin your ship.
5. My personal best is saving all 8x T2 1400MM Arties, all 4 Gyrostab IIs, and the three Tracking Computer IIs.
Sadly, I lost the rigs and one of the Sensor Booster IIs in the explosion. Good luck beating that. :)
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2012-03-21 09:13:32 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
So I'm wondering if this is really wise of me to post this, but since this thread has been a gray area right from the start and so far no consequences levied, I'll come right out and say this.

I went on the test server last night, in a 0.5 sec system, fired at a target provoking GCC, and proceeded to warp around the system for the entire remainder of the GCC until it ran out, at which point CONCORD stopped pursuing me and I could jump out of system or safely stay in one point without being destroyed.

I didn't try this on the main server however unless there's some difference between the main server and the test server regarding GCC and CONCORD (and there's no reason to believe there is) then this is just as possible on there.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Psychotic Monk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2012-03-21 09:37:02 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
So I'm wondering if this is really wise of me to post this, but since this thread has been a gray area right from the start and so far no consequences levied, I'll come right out and say this.

I went on the test server last night, in a 0.5 sec system, fired at a target provoking GCC, and proceeded to warp around the system for the entire remainder of the GCC until it ran out, at which point CONCORD stopped pursuing me and I could jump out of system or safely stay in one point without being destroyed.

I didn't try this on the main server however unless there's some difference between the main server and the test server regarding GCC and CONCORD (and there's no reason to believe there is) then this is just as possible on there.


It's possible, but absolutely and unquestionably an exploit.

Belligerent Undesirables Selling Griefer Immunity
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2012-03-21 10:14:57 UTC
What's weirdest about this is that several times when coming out of warp CONCORD spawned on grid just before I came out of warp. Even with CONCORD on grid, I still had several seconds to realign and warp away. I could keep this up indefinitely.

What's even scarier is that in many cases, particularly when warping into asteroid belts, CONCORD didn't spawn at all for several seconds.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Buck Futz
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2012-03-21 10:36:59 UTC
When they locked the Boomerang thread, it made me so mad I killed:

24 Mackinaws
5 Hulks
14 Pods.

In one evening.

Nice job CCP Guard! Now those stupid miners will have to toil to replace approximately 5.5 Billion ISK in assets.
I've already notified them that it was your fault, and they can forward their complaints to you.
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2012-03-21 10:49:49 UTC  |  Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:
If it is an exploit, we're just one step closer to WOW in space.

I really hope CCP change their cearbear direction. If not, I'll have to re-think my yearly subscription.


Yes. Evading CONCORD has never been an exploit. I too will rage and act surprised when CCP deems this an exploit.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
Buck Futz
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2012-03-21 10:59:50 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:
If it is an exploit, we're just one step closer to WOW in space.

I really hope CCP change their cearbear direction. If not, I'll have to re-think my yearly subscription.


Yes. Evading CONCORD has never been an exploit. I too will rage and act surprised when CCP deems this an exploit.


Because you seem a bit slow:

Gank, ship no go boom = Concord evasion

Gank, warp away, but ship still get caught and go boom <> Concord evasion.
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2012-03-21 11:09:36 UTC  |  Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Buck Futz wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:
If it is an exploit, we're just one step closer to WOW in space.

I really hope CCP change their cearbear direction. If not, I'll have to re-think my yearly subscription.


Yes. Evading CONCORD has never been an exploit. I too will rage and act surprised when CCP deems this an exploit.


Because you seem a bit slow:

Gank, ship no go boom = Concord evasion

Gank, warp away, but ship still get caught and go boom <> Concord evasion.

Because you seem a bit daft:

Gank, warp away, gank, warp away, gank, warp away = CONCORD evasion.

Hell, you could let GCC count down without ever getting caught. But sure, we can both act surprised when we find out together that evading CONCORD is considered exploit for the very first time in Eve's history.

The rules don't state that you are allowed to evade CONCORD for the first 10 minutes and evading them after that is an exploit. The rules clearly state that evading CONCORD is an exploit. And whether you like it or not, if you are warping away after a gank you ARE evading CONCORD at that time. No silly play in words will change that fact.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
BuzzyBeagle
Centers for Intergalactic Mercantile Acquisition
#19 - 2012-03-21 11:13:52 UTC
EnslaverOfMinmatar wrote:
It's not an exploit because tornadoes can be prevented from warping by fitting a warp disruptor on hulks/mackinaws/orcas. Miners should just mine in tight packs.

this is the most pathetic bear response i have ever read.
please DO fit warp disruptors , it will just ensure you have less tank and easier to kill.
Buck Futz
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2012-03-21 11:32:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Buck Futz
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Buck Futz wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:
If it is an exploit, we're just one step closer to WOW in space.

I really hope CCP change their cearbear direction. If not, I'll have to re-think my yearly subscription.


Yes. Evading CONCORD has never been an exploit. I too will rage and act surprised when CCP deems this an exploit.


Because you seem a bit slow:

Gank, ship no go boom = Concord evasion

Gank, warp away, but ship still get caught and go boom <> Concord evasion.

Because you seem a bit daft:

Gank, warp away, gank, warp away, gank, warp away = CONCORD evasion.

Hell, you could let GCC count down without ever getting caught. But sure, we can both act surprised when we find out together that evading CONCORD is considered exploit for the very first time in Eve's history.


You fail at reading. What you describe isn't what is happening, and your efforts to mislead are childish.

Warping nonstop for fifteen minutes until the GCC ends has always been an exploit. Why? Because you don't lose your ship.

Further I don't believe that warping for 15 minutes it is even possible since recent stealth-buffs to Concord. Concord simply arrives too quickly after a few landings. And its certainly not possible to continue targetting and shooting while attemping to do so.

Quit trying to conflate that situation with this one.

What we are discussing here is: Gank, gank, warp away, gank, warp away, gank, Concord arrives, POP, game over.
The 'pop' being the key factor. I'm sure the miners and carebears WISH such a maneuver is wasn't possible - that is is somehow 'cheating', but the reality is that no exploiting is taking place under the generally accepted definition. GCC still equals ship death.

All that remains is to seen, is if CCP decides to move the goalposts again.
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