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Transracial crosstraining. Buffed rewards pls.

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Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#81 - 2012-03-19 12:42:34 UTC
That's what everyone keeps telling you. What isn't there to understand?

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#82 - 2012-03-19 12:43:39 UTC
Halete wrote:
I'm not fundamentally against faction ships that require all racials. Seems like it could be cool.

... You know, so long as they aren't balanced as OP is suggesting. Also, there's a kind of bitter sweetness after seeing this thread get more support (against it) after being up for 40 hours and getting on the EVE forums (from the office, so don't even suggest sleeping).


Silly person the suggestion is the idea and the need behind it. Values at this stage (months before a dev even says it sounds interesting or not, let alone implementation) are arbitrary.

Please do not be bitter, even if bitter sweet. Please see only the prospect of the community gaining something from this thread.
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#83 - 2012-03-19 12:45:09 UTC
Halete wrote:
That's what everyone keeps telling you. What isn't there to understand?


Assuming you refer to post 80 can you explain how if the siruation was balanced to begin with all the changes I refer too fail to change the balance?
Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#84 - 2012-03-19 12:53:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Halete
Okay, you can tell that (that you are silly people and this was your ploy all along!) to every single other person in this thread saying the same thing as me rather than singling me out as you continue to do.

Except then you'd be directly contradicting the point you keep making that you think the SPs should reward you with ISK efficiency etc. etc. and all the other points you have been reinforcing throughout the thread.

Sigh.

Just going to leave this here since you are undoubtedly going to point out how much of an idiot and wrong I am about that, whilst disregarding everyone else who was for the all-racial idea along with me.

ShahFluffers wrote:
One of the base principles in EVE is that every advantage you gain comes at exponentially increased cost (and/or risk). This is what keeps "everyone" from strictly flying T2 and T3 ships (i.e. "better" ships) and keeps T1 ships more or less viable after about 10 years of the game being in existence.



Crellion wrote:

YES DUDE THATS THE POINT I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS BASIC PRINCIPLE I THINK THEY SHOULD CHANGE IT. YOU THINK CCP IS INFALLIBLE?


Yep, merely suggesting all-racial with arbitrary values.

In unrelated news, you seem to have quite the vendetta against me so I'm going to vanish before someone says something regrettable.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#85 - 2012-03-19 13:06:37 UTC
Halete wrote:
Okay, you can tell that to every single other person in this thread saying the same thing as me rather than singling me out as you continue to do.

Except then you'd be directly contradicting the point you keep making that you think the SPs should reward you with ISK efficiency etc. etc. and all the other points you have been reinforcing throughout the thread.

Sigh.


Tell that what?

You refer to a post and I ask for an explannation in very polite terms and looking to be enlightened. All the other personal sentimental stuff is redundant dude... really.
Pheusia
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#86 - 2012-03-19 13:26:04 UTC
Crellion wrote:
Nnam Pir wrote:
The big benefit of cross-training for other race's ships is the extra options. That alone is a big benefit.


It was a huge benefit 5 years ago, especially from having one race to having two races vessels at your disposal. Is that still the case after all weapon systems and vessels beconing more and more same-ish over the years? Is it rwardign enough to go from 3 races to 4 as well??? Compared with the advantages of gaining other ship classes in the same type?




Y E S
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#87 - 2012-03-19 13:46:01 UTC
Halete wrote:
Okay, you can tell that (that you are silly people and this was your ploy all along!) to every single other person in this thread saying the same thing as me rather than singling me out as you continue to do.

Except then you'd be directly contradicting the point you keep making that you think the SPs should reward you with ISK efficiency etc. etc. and all the other points you have been reinforcing throughout the thread.

Sigh.

Just going to leave this here since you are undoubtedly going to point out how much of an idiot and wrong I am about that, whilst disregarding everyone else who was for the all-racial idea along with me.

ShahFluffers wrote:
One of the base principles in EVE is that every advantage you gain comes at exponentially increased cost (and/or risk). This is what keeps "everyone" from strictly flying T2 and T3 ships (i.e. "better" ships) and keeps T1 ships more or less viable after about 10 years of the game being in existence.



Crellion wrote:

YES DUDE THATS THE POINT I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS BASIC PRINCIPLE I THINK THEY SHOULD CHANGE IT. YOU THINK CCP IS INFALLIBLE?


Yep, merely suggesting all-racial with arbitrary values.

In unrelated news, you seem to have quite the vendetta against me so I'm going to vanish before someone says something regrettable.


A) I thought in my previosu post I made it obvious there is nothign perosnal.

B) Now that you edited your post all the stuff you inputed helps me understand you. Indeed part of my OP was why to always get more expensive ships for performance increase and that I would like a scaling where a lot of training can get you a modest performance increase (how modest at present unknown... let's say between tech I and tech II) at the cost of tech I. This could be with new vessels as per OP, or bleeding effect of "cousin" skills etc etc. Indeed most people have diagreed flat out in this thread to cosnider this. Why, I am not sure exactly but this is indeed the case.

C) The post tat started todays tirade was like this: a gentleman expressed an opinion (post 79) and I replied with a question (post 80). Thereafter you said, in so many words, "why ask him everyone says no". This however was not about having a reward from training without isk increase (again I still suppor tht too but no one else seems to agree). This was about whether versatility was enough of a reward of crosstraining or not. Therein I expressed my question in post 80 and you are still wellcome to comment if you like, or not.

I repeat for clarity there is nothing personal in all of this. Just review post 80 please. If the answer is "perhaps the balance has indeed shifted somewhat" then we need to discuss a balancing act. I prefer buffing to nerfing so I suggested that. My original values were very much in your face humongous to provoce a bit of a stir and for the sake of simplicity but let us dicsuss the need for change (or lack thereof) before we get lost in the quagmire of percentages...
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#88 - 2012-03-19 13:47:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Crellion
Pheusia wrote:
Crellion wrote:
Nnam Pir wrote:
The big benefit of cross-training for other race's ships is the extra options. That alone is a big benefit.


It was a huge benefit 5 years ago, especially from having one race to having two races vessels at your disposal. Is that still the case after all weapon systems and vessels beconing more and more same-ish over the years? Is it rwardign enough to go from 3 races to 4 as well??? Compared with the advantages of gaining other ship classes in the same type?




Y E S


Seems like an oxymoron. If the answer is yes then 5 yeas ago it would be Hell yes. Yet still 5 years ago the smart move was to specialize before crosstraining beyond a second race... I wonder why...

EDIT For curiosity can we hear from anyone who has say all 4 races recons and Hictors and as to what they think 4 races offer over 2 or 3.. Do you out there who has done it feel rewarded enough?
Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#89 - 2012-03-19 13:54:14 UTC
If you insist;

I said everyone says YES (see #86). The reason no further explanation was offered is because people have repeated the same points over and over and I don't want to beat the dead horse. Cross-training for versatility is it's own reward.

Also, the reason it feels personal is because quite a few people are echoing my own posts, but you only single mine out with the belittling and demeaning comments - and you have insisted that I am either blatantly wrong or misunderstanding the entire thread, whilst offering very little foundations for why - and when it is not really me you should be addressing, but rather EVERYONE who is replying to you.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#90 - 2012-03-19 13:58:49 UTC
Halete wrote:
If you insist;

I said everyone says YES (see #86). The reason no further explanation was offered is because people have repeated the same points over and over and I don't want to beat the dead horse. Cross-training for versatility is it's own reward.

Also, the reason it feels personal is because quite a few people are echoing my own posts, but you only single mine out with the belittling and demeaning comments - and you have insisted that I am either blatantly wrong or misunderstanding the entire thread, whilst offering very little foundations for why - and when it is not really me you should be addressing, but rather EVERYONE who is replying to you.



I tried to reply to most everyone. If they simply disagreed I tried to demonstrate my point of view in a different light. Not that it has made a huge difference, grant you.

You on the other hand have been helpfull with some posts but out right wrong and missing the point in others. In those posts I replied not in order to chastice or belittle you but because they were giving false impressions of what I was saying.

I not however that you feel sympathetic to all races skill requiring faction ships. So does this mean you accept the need for a bit more reward fom crosstraining yourself? Is it only the cheap ships I aksed for that you did not like?
Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#91 - 2012-03-19 14:26:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Halete
There's that "you've been wrong" card again. Again, I only echo what many other people are saying.

When I use sarcasm, hyperbole, deadpan humour and say things like "Miner Is should buff Projectile Turrets too", that's on purpose. It's not because I'm such a wildly idiotic, crazy person. It's to make myself sound ridiculous so that you have a frame of reference for how other-worldly your ideas actually sound to me.

Hope this clears things up,

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
Tobiaz
Spacerats
#92 - 2012-03-19 14:45:41 UTC
Racial cross-training already provides a huge benefit: you can fly ships of other races.

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#93 - 2012-03-19 14:50:04 UTC
Crellion wrote:
[quote=Pheusia][quote=Crellion][quote=Nnam Pir]The big benefit of cross-training for other race's ships is the extra options. That alone

EDIT For curiosity can we hear from anyone who has say all 4 races recons and Hictors and as to what they think 4 races offer over 2 or 3.. Do you out there who has done it feel rewarded enough?

Yes, I have done this. It gives flexibility and diversity. That is the benefit.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#94 - 2012-03-19 15:18:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Crellion
FT Diomedes wrote:
Crellion wrote:
[quote=Pheusia][quote=Crellion][quote=Nnam Pir]The big benefit of cross-training for other race's ships is the extra options. That alone

EDIT For curiosity can we hear from anyone who has say all 4 races recons and Hictors and as to what they think 4 races offer over 2 or 3.. Do you out there who has done it feel rewarded enough?

Yes, I have done this. It gives flexibility and diversity. That is the benefit.


Thank you very much FT Diomedes for your answer. Have you found this versatility very helpful in your long pvp
carrier. Were there times when six HACs at your disposal just would not cut it and you needed desperately that last race to be competitive? Did the substantial advantages of the fourth race figure prominently on the road to amassing your career kills as they appear on battleclinic?

I ask because I always made do with two and thought the additional two would not be that helpful...

Ok then I consider this thread done as Ft D and Tobiaz share so much pvp experience between them is pointless to insist. Mods please close the thread...

Edit: what's that? Tobiaz says crosstraining is a reward initself but has only ever lost Caldari ships... I guess he only powns with the other race vessels he flies...

Edit2: After this revelation I just had to go and check youknowwho... guess what ... 3 kills 5 losses and all of those minmattar ships...

Why on earth would you comment so forcefully on the forums on somehting you don't have the foggiest idea about and you are all monoracial to boot...

Is everybody in these forums like this these days? Count me out please ... sorry to have wasted your time...
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#95 - 2012-03-19 16:30:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Crellion wrote:

Thank you very much FT Diomedes for your answer. Have you found this versatility very helpful in your long pvp
carrier. Were there times when six HACs at your disposal just would not cut it and you needed desperately that last race to be competitive? Did the substantial advantages of the fourth race figure prominently on the road to amassing your career kills as they appear on battleclinic?


I fly everything and I feel really limited when I'm restricted to only 1-2 races. My recently known ships (Involved with a noticeable number of kills in the last 2 months):
- Amarr: Oracle, Geddon, Slicer, Curse
- Minmatar: Rupture, Hurricane, Hound, (Loki, Scimitar, Cheetah)
- Gallente: Talos, Taranis, Brutix, Lachesis
- Caldari: Harpy, Manticore, Drake, (Basilisk, Tengu)

Brackets indicate commonly used support ships that don't appear on mails. I have a Legion but we don't ever run armor gangs so I don't fly it.

/shrug

-Liang

Ed: Ruppie, Cane, Hound kills are from an alt. He is cross trained but seems to have a thing for Minnie ships (despite being stronger in Amarr... -_-)

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#96 - 2012-03-20 04:46:23 UTC
It's true, I don't PvP very much on this account. Do you want a cookie?

Still, since this character is an elite carebear, I will say that crosstraining has paid off immensely on the PvE front too. I don't get bored as often because I can switch to any subcapital ship and fly it with equal skills. And I can always choose the right tool for the job. Being able to switch on a whim between a Paladin, a Machariel, and a Tengu is very nice for PvE.

I can fly every frigate on my primary PvP account - that keeps me from being a one-trick pony. The ability to keep your opponents guessing what you will be in and how you will be fit can be a real advantage when you keep fighting the same folks over and over again. It's particularly nice when you can swap between different Stealth Bombers to hit the right resist hole. Now if I could just get some decent kills with the aforementioned Stealth Bombers, that would be very nice.

When I used to PvP in larger ships, I found versatility especially nice in the Recon department. The ability to switch at will between the Arazu, Falcon, Pilgrim, and Rapier can give you an advantage when you are hunting people.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Pheusia
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#97 - 2012-03-20 10:08:45 UTC
Crellion wrote:
Were there times when six HACs at your disposal just would not cut it and you needed desperately that last race to be competitive?


I'll answer that question on my own behalf: yes.

When you need a long range DPS ship to keep Falcons off the field, there's no HAC that will come close to the Cerberus. When you need a hgh speed anti-support/heavy tackle/hit-and-run ship, then other HACs are a poor subsitute for the Vagabond. When you need HAC that can use drones, then the Ishtar is the only reasonably choice. When you want to join an AHAC fleet, the Zealot is convincingly superior to the other HACs.

The Recons have distinct enough roles that the advantages of being able to use them all are too obvious to need explaining.

HICs are a little less obvious, but still, you will definitely want to be able to fly both a shield and an armour HIC. The Devoter is significantly better than the Phobos for "big fleet" work due to its resist profile and incredible EHP, while the Phobos is better for lo-sec work. There's not really much to choose between the Onyx and the Broadsword IMO.The Onyx is a little better at providing supplementary DPS, the Broadsword is more agile.


The true advantage I have been able to derive from cross-training rather than specialising is that when the FC announces "Tonight's fleet is a $DOCTRINE fleet" I am always able to fill at least one, usually more, role in the fleet in the ship best suited to it. If the FC wants to try out a concept Gallente Battlecruiser fleet, I can fly that BC. If he wants an all-Ishtar fleet, I can do that. If he's short on Interdictors, I can swap out to whatever spare dictor hull someone has lying around.

(The irony is that I am posting this with a relatively specialised alt; my main - Malcanis - is the omnitasker. But even this semi-specialised alt is busy cross-training right now, and she can fly the very few ships that Malc can't)
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#98 - 2012-03-20 10:27:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Crellion
Pheusia wrote:
Crellion wrote:
Were there times when six HACs at your disposal just would not cut it and you needed desperately that last race to be competitive?


I'll answer that question on my own behalf: yes.

When you need a long range DPS ship to keep Falcons off the field, there's no HAC that will come close to the Cerberus. When you need a hgh speed anti-support/heavy tackle/hit-and-run ship, then other HACs are a poor subsitute for the Vagabond. When you need HAC that can use drones, then the Ishtar is the only reasonably choice. When you want to join an AHAC fleet, the Zealot is convincingly superior to the other HACs.

The Recons have distinct enough roles that the advantages of being able to use them all are too obvious to need explaining.

HICs are a little less obvious, but still, you will definitely want to be able to fly both a shield and an armour HIC. The Devoter is significantly better than the Phobos for "big fleet" work due to its resist profile and incredible EHP, while the Phobos is better for lo-sec work. There's not really much to choose between the Onyx and the Broadsword IMO.The Onyx is a little better at providing supplementary DPS, the Broadsword is more agile.


The true advantage I have been able to derive from cross-training rather than specialising is that when the FC announces "Tonight's fleet is a $DOCTRINE fleet" I am always able to fill at least one, usually more, role in the fleet in the ship best suited to it. If the FC wants to try out a concept Gallente Battlecruiser fleet, I can fly that BC. If he wants an all-Ishtar fleet, I can do that. If he's short on Interdictors, I can swap out to whatever spare dictor hull someone has lying around.

(The irony is that I am posting this with a relatively specialised alt; my main - Malcanis - is the omnitasker. But even this semi-specialised alt is busy cross-training right now, and she can fly the very few ships that Malc can't)


Well I do not disagree as such. I have also made sure I have all 4 races (albeit acroos 2 chars). However when discussing balance you have to put things into perspective. Again nothing new in this post its all been said above too but just to make it, perhaps, clearer.

All 8 HACs gives nice versatility, but 6 HACs and 2 Reckons gives a lot more versatility... Hece versatility is erroneously quoted as the satisfying answer to the question: What is the incentive of traininng the 4th race.

The question also have to be put into context, because no one (or very few) has 200 mill SPs. Therefore:
The question is NOT: "What is the incentive for training the 4th race" but rather
"What is the incentive for training the 4th race INSTEAD of something else"

A very simple statement but therein for me lies the heart of the matter.

However as I said above, if I am the only one who sees this, right or wrong, it does not matter, it can be ignored.

Edit: as to the basis of your argument on HACs I mildly disagree. It is not as black and white as you think.
In an AHAC fleet the Munnin and arguably even the Diemost or Eagle can function with a small loss of utility from Zealot.
A Vaga and NanoIshtar, and a Beam Zealot can be a lot more effective scareing Falcons off the field than a Cerb sometimes.
The Vagabonds role is filled by a shield Diemost with a small loss of utility (considerable but small)
For drone Hacs there is only the Ishtar but for the roles it's used Sacriledge is often a very good alternative.

There are edges in this list but none compares with the huge gap when a Cloaky Reckon gang is called for and all you got is 8 HACs... Again do not take all this as disagreement I am just trying to show you that there is a thin but tangible difference there. I do agree that generally flying everything is better than not flying everyhting ... but thats not the quesiton here.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#99 - 2012-03-20 10:29:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Tobiaz wrote:
Racial cross-training already provides a huge benefit: you can fly ships of other races.

Let's just repeat this one more time — more benefit than this really isn't needed since it's a huge pay-off in and of itself.

The reason people keep specialising after all these years, even given the massive benefits of cross-training is that specialising lets you become good, fast. That's a completely different benefit that is more valuable in the short run. Cross-training does not do that: it lets you become versatile, slowly. The (drastically) increased value of that versatility over simply being able to get in the fight is what makes it reasonable that it takes so long.

You can get versatile quick, but you give up the benefit that specialisation provides by doing so: you don't become as good.

It's a balance act and a decisions point — each way has its own distinct advantages and none of them need any specific rewards because they are all more than sufficiently rewarding for what you have to do to get them.

Crellion wrote:
The question also have to be put into context, because no one (or very few) has 200 mill SPs. Therefore:
The question is NOT: "What is the incentive for training the 4th race" but rather
"What is the incentive for training the 4th race INSTEAD of something else"
Because it adds significant value to what you have already trained.
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#100 - 2012-03-20 11:09:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Crellion
Tippia wrote:
Tobiaz wrote:
Racial cross-training already provides a huge benefit: you can fly ships of other races.

Let's just repeat this one more time — more benefit than this really isn't needed since it's a huge pay-off in and of itself.

The reason people keep specialising after all these years, even given the massive benefits of cross-training is that specialising lets you become good, fast. That's a completely different benefit that is more valuable in the short run. Cross-training does not do that: it lets you become versatile, slowly. The (drastically) increased value of that versatility over simply being able to get in the fight is what makes it reasonable that it takes so long.

You can get versatile quick, but you give up the benefit that specialisation provides by doing so: you don't become as good.

It's a balance act and a decisions point — each way has its own distinct advantages and none of them need any specific rewards because they are all more than sufficiently rewarding for what you have to do to get them.

Crellion wrote:
The question also have to be put into context, because no one (or very few) has 200 mill SPs. Therefore:
The question is NOT: "What is the incentive for training the 4th race" but rather
"What is the incentive for training the 4th race INSTEAD of something else"
Because it adds significant value to what you have already trained.


Adding significant value does not cut it. The whole discussion is comparison of the added vvalue form the one with the added value from the other. See my previous post.

Saying 4th race is useful is not enough IMO. You have to look at whether it is as useful as doing something else with your training time. Here there is an imbalance. I attmpted to identify it in my previous post. Perhaps review it. (post 98)