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Dear CCP - A Plea on the Dust 514 to Eve Link
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Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#1 - 2012-03-17 00:57:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Lallante
Dear CCP

Later this year, a large swathe of both the Eve Online, PS3 and also wider gaming community is eagerly awaiting the release of Dust 514.

With claims like Your next shot could topple empires... and the heavy marketting emphasis on the unique link between two MMOs across two platforms, a lot of the community and media have been overexcited. To this ends I write this plea CCP.

Please, under no cirucmstances, launch Dust 514 with a minimal or superficial link between Eve and Dust. No matter how "good" you think Dust is as a standalone game, no matter how awesome shared coms and corps is, if the link-gameplay isn't that good yet, WAIT UNTIL IT IS BEFORE LAUNCHING OPEN BETA, let alone retail.

Anything less will unleash an enormous backlash, which due to the insane levels of hype ("Largest MMO in existence", "100m downloads" etc) will eclipse our paltry unrest at Captains Quarter(s).

A "substantial" Link between the games is NOT
- The ability to loosely direct dust battles to specific contested planets in Eve
- Shared corporation and namespace
- Shared comms (though I understand even this (voice) won't be ready!!!!
- a minor economic benefit (lol PI) to using Dust mercs to capture facilities on planets.

These are all minor, cosmetic and insubstantial "links". You could achieve almost all of them with an API feed between the games, and the economic influence on Eve will be non-existant. People, not to mention the media, will be disappointed and reviews will be generally "meh" - FPS reviewers are not used to giving a game time to develop.

A "substantial" Link is
- escalating dust matchups that culminate in a serious gain/loss in Eve (at an economic value equivalent, in the most 'important' dust battles, to a technitium moon in Eve.
- serious scarcity of resources - it should be possible a single Dust dedicated corp of 500 players to corner the market in something that is absolutely necessary for Eve.
- the ability, under certain difficult to achieve circumstances, to kill high value ships in Eve (e.g. caps/supercaps in orbit/system)
- a major impact on territorial warfare, or the value of territory, or FW, such that its impact cannot be ignored by those involved in such things in Eve

DO NOT pre-nerf the link from launch. It would be better for the link to be over the top / overpowered (Eve can handle the volatility - its been going almost a decade!) initially and later toned down than pointless initially and then toned up after most of the population has quit for the next BF game.

DO NOT promise to iterate with only limited features at launch. This approach has failed repeatedly with the highly engaged, patient and long-termist PC players of Eve Online. With PS3 FPS players it will simply mean abject failure.

The link between Dust and Eve is the flagship feature of Dust. Make sure it is the most impressive feature too before you release the game.

Watching this:
http://www.theverge.com/gaming/2012/3/14/2871998/video-the-eve-of-dust-514
While I think Reid is a good marketting guy, its clear the link is going to be 99% economic at present. Unless this is really well handled, Dust will just become a bottom line (pay 100m for cheap fodder to kill AI on one of the 10,000 planets not guarded by real players, get 110m back) and the link will be practically meaningless.



Dust 514 MUST have a substantial link to Eve from launch if it is to live up to the hype and be a success going forward.
Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
#2 - 2012-03-17 01:06:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Grey Azorria
Also nuking from orbit, Dust needs to have nuking from orbit. I mean it's the only way to be sure...

And don't just make us the Dust bunnies killstreak bonus either, give us control of where and when we glass them

Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Sometimes when I post, I look at my sig and wish that I'd follow my own god damned advice.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#3 - 2012-03-17 01:16:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
I'm sure people will love topping empires with a shot.

It's easy to think of who and what empire.
Grey Azorria wrote:
Also nuking from orbit, Dust needs to have nuking from orbit. I mean it's the only way to be sure...

And don't just make us the Dust bunnies killstreak bonus either, give us control of where and when we glass them

Yes. yes it is the only way to be sure. We need to wipe out all planetary life before it is safe to begin planetary interaction.

We don't buy all the stuff for planetary population interaction after all.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#4 - 2012-03-17 01:43:01 UTC
paraphrasing since its a bit lon

So according to the OP she says that

[list
  • Losing planets in Ev
  • Having shared corporations, allainces, and local spac
  • The ability to talk to these dust bunnies on any leve
  • and sharing the market with the bunnies
    • [/list

    ...Are cosmetic

    I dont fault her for blaming the link as an over glorified interaction of API V2 I mean its how eve feeds dust 514 the information it needs to generate a map

    Then going off on the lack of publicitiy should been in a seperate rant the lack of exposure. Mind you ccp is a very small company any attempts to acutally market this game would require alot of revenue. Morder Warfare 3 almost required a quater billion in dollars to advertise. CCP only makes about 66million a year before the bills

    Then the OP goes off to declare tha
  • Making planetary warfare serious business at the cost of throwing the fate of Eve into it entirely becuase her allaince cant control tech moons (seriously take that somewhere else
  • Wants to further stress economics despite that we're about to get hammered quite seriuosly with tech 1 materials very soon here
  • Thinks that monopolies of said resources is good for the game (which counters how to make good link 1 issue
  • And restate that the already existing ability for planets to be able to skill star ships would be much more significant than the earlier disregarded items
  • Forgets that FW would be the Dust Bunnies version of missioning
  • Doesnt belive allainces are going to not pursue the use of orbital elevators to warrent the ground force protection the elevator brings

    • Then goes off to say not to nerf the link at launch. Which I beg to differ that it has to be made in measured response. If dust 514 is as popular as the marketing guy wants to sell it as HOW in the HELL are the current eve players going to supply enough guns, tanks, armors, fighters, dropships, mtacs, apcs, LAVs, MMCs, bases, for 10 million players

    Then forgets thats dust 514 does have a budget and it must one point must start making money for itself and hasnt done enough research to see how feature heavy the launch is going to be. We're looking at infinitely more maps than any other shooter out there even though its restricted to two planet types for now. Followed by the massive selection of guns being made avaiable and how its propagating to all four races.

    Then ultimately forgets that the link between Dust and Eve is the flagship feature. Followed by persistence

    Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
    Nova Fox
    Novafox Shipyards
    #5 - 2012-03-17 01:45:20 UTC
    Grey Azorria wrote:
    Also nuking from orbit, Dust needs to have nuking from orbit. I mean it's the only way to be sure...

    And don't just make us the Dust bunnies killstreak bonus either, give us control of where and when we glass them


    If you realized how dangerous it is to park in orbit to fire at targets you would want somone down stairs making sure you hit the missile battery thats about to sink your dreadnaught.

    Dust bunnies do get a kill streak like mechanic but it plays out into material deployment such as vehicle, drop turrets, drop nanohives, drop spawn vats, requests and strike requests from controlled zone assest or orbital assests.

    But only the commander is in charge on how those 'kill streak points' are spent.

    Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
    Terminal Insanity
    KarmaFleet
    Goonswarm Federation
    #6 - 2012-03-17 01:52:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Terminal Insanity
    Lallante wrote:

    With claims like Your next shot could topple empires... and the heavy marketting emphasis on the unique link between two MMOs across two platforms, a lot of the community and media have been overexcited. To this ends I write this plea CCP.

    Please, under no cirucmstances, launch Dust 514 with a minimal or superficial link between Eve and Dust.



    100% agreed. I want CCP to jump all-in and really do it up.

    Eve players are used to the 'beta like' revisioning of eve, but most console players will NOT enjoy the same style of updates. Please make Dust the best it can be and heavily tie it into eve. Let eve's side take the mistakes, our player base is used to the changes and occasional failed implementations.

    POCO's/PI is a great way to do this. PI is relatively new and players are aware its 'unstable' as it is, with the latest POCO's added etc. We already assume PI could be broken in the future. TAKE that risk! We dont mind! (POCOs have no defense like POS's do, let the DUST installations be that defense!)

    It would be an awesome way to introduce vastly different type of PvP experience into eve AND the FPS world. Do it up! Get really creative and let the Dust players experience something awesome.

    Even if you have to fix or completely revamp the ties, thats ok, the important thing is to actually have heavy ties right from the get-go for the Dust people. Console games are very much a 'love at first sight' type of experience. They need to fall in love with it right away, not be told they've got to wait for next update for the REALLY cool parts...

    This is coming from someone who doesn't even own a ps3. I really just want to see dust succeed. It'll improve Eve and introduce fresh blood to our guns \o/

    "War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP
    Patient 2428190
    DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
    #7 - 2012-03-17 03:12:25 UTC
    This is CCP we are talking about.

    You are most likely going to get one lava map plastered on all planets, only a fraction of the guns/tanks actually in the game and zero idea what to do with a dust/eve link. Promises will be made of awesome however.
    Chiggy W
    Hard-Luck Industries
    #8 - 2012-03-17 05:35:06 UTC
    Patient 2428190 wrote:
    This is CCP we are talking about.

    You are most likely going to get one lava map plastered on all planets, only a fraction of the guns/tanks actually in the game and zero idea what to do with a dust/eve link. Promises will be made of awesome however.


    Agreed, Welcome to Incarna Mk.2 folks.

    I don't think CCP has any idea on how they will link the two despite the hype. They are facing a real challenge here, and I'm not sure they have properly thought this through without the :awesome: filter that brought use the last over hyped/under delivered garbage that was Incarna.

    As someone who is regularly involved in the painful grinding that is sov warfare, if I have spent many days/weeks/months trying to take systems/constalations/regions, I want the ultimate success or failure decided by me and my corp mates/alliance, not some faceless dude on a PS3 who hasn't spent many an hour grinding structures, being blueballed, CTA's and logistics.

    I have no interest in letting a non-Eve player decide the fate of my hard work is the bottom line I guess. FI the link is too reliant on Dust, you risk alienating the Eve playerbase, or crippling the game is Dust fails and if it is to weak it's pointless. I don't like it, but we will have to wait and see.
    Adunh Slavy
    #9 - 2012-03-17 06:24:37 UTC
    The OP is 100% correct.

    Dust must have a substantial link, and a link that everyone in Eve can feel, and a link that everyone in Dust can feel, from high sec to null sec. If some of the mechanics have to be a bit "sci-fi-space-magic" at the start to get it to work, so be it.

    Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
    Alavaria Fera
    GoonWaffe
    #10 - 2012-03-17 06:56:20 UTC
    Terminal Insanity wrote:
    (POCOs have no defense like POS's do, let the DUST installations be that defense!)

    Aren't POCOs the ones with the timer where you set a specific time (not a timer) for it to come out of reinforce?

    Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
    Danfen Fenix
    #11 - 2012-03-17 09:23:51 UTC
    I personally think a nice balance is needed. While linking them substantially would be great, it needs to be done so that one does not become so engrained in the other, that it requires the other to work correctly. Rather the links should be made as alternatives to a goal (such as the idea that sov can still be held as normal, but planets may be an extra way of holding sov, rather than needed to hold sov). This is mainly due to the fact that, say if one (either Dust OR EvE) fails/dies...you do not want that to cause a serious impact on the other in terms of gameplay P This is where CCP are going to have to walk a fine line really.

    For example on the OP
    Quote:
    serious scarcity of resources - it should be possible a single Dust dedicated corp of 500 players to corner the market in something that is absolutely necessary for Eve.


    This would be good if it was still possible to obtain the resource in EVE, or an alternative, and that aquiring it through Dust is just possibly easier or more efficient.
    Zagdul
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #12 - 2012-03-17 09:38:45 UTC
    I want personnel transports that can be blown up please.

    ty!

    Dual Pane idea: Click!

    CCP Please Implement
    Adunh Slavy
    #13 - 2012-03-17 09:55:23 UTC
    Danfen Fenix wrote:

    ... Rather the links should be made as alternatives to a goal (such as the idea that sov can still be held as normal, but planets may be an extra way of holding sov, rather than needed to hold sov). This is mainly due to the fact that, say if one (either Dust OR EvE) fails/dies...you do not want that to cause a serious impact on the other in terms of gameplay P This is where CCP are going to have to walk a fine line really.



    it should be an AND, not an OR. if dust turns out to be a flop, no big deal, change the logic and it goes away. Dust will more likely not be a flop if the dust players feel needed and know they have a role. If they are an optional play thing then they will feel like an optional play thing.

    Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
    Ptraci
    3 R Corporation
    #14 - 2012-03-17 11:35:05 UTC
    Am I the only one who reads "Your next shot could topple empires" as the weasel words they actually are? These words mean nothing. It "could" topple empires (but it won't). And it's your next shot anyway. Not this shot. The next one... keep shooting.
    J3ssica Alba
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #15 - 2012-03-17 11:39:06 UTC
    If you read Templar One the dust bunnies have some nifty missiles that can take down dreads that come down low to bombard the surface. Would be awesome if this can actually happen.
    This is my signature. There are many others like it, but this one is mine.  Without me, my signature is useless. Without my signature, I am useless
    ElQuirko
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #16 - 2012-03-17 13:56:33 UTC
    All I want to see is ground-mounted dread guns for surface-to-space roflpwnage.

    Dodixie > Hek
    Vetrox Satria
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #17 - 2012-03-17 14:03:13 UTC
    Although its based in the same universe. It wont NEED to be linked to eve online.

    I disagree with your speculation that it "may not be good enough on its own"

    Dust will be (IMO) A slicker more up to date version of planetside and that was a succesfull game that wasnt linked to any other game.
    Ager Agemo
    Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
    #18 - 2012-03-17 14:11:22 UTC
    If tanks, guns and etc were obtained from NPC sell orders, it would be the perfect ISK sink to get rid of all that extra isk floating around, it would be GREAT! if we had so many dust bunnies that we could not satisfy the demand for weaponry and alike.
    Lallante
    Blue Republic
    RvB - BLUE Republic
    #19 - 2012-03-22 22:37:35 UTC
    Watching the stream it seems I didn't need to worry - Orbital Bombardment is a GO!