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There's a slow but constant haemorrhage of new players

First post
Author
Adunh Slavy
#201 - 2012-03-16 01:37:52 UTC
Sasha Azala wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Sasha Azala wrote:

You can't eliminate the alt problem as alts are not necessarily just on one account.


If they are not counted in the forumla, for not having an active training cycle, then why not? How many people are going to pay an extra 15 a month just to move the number so they can gank noobs?



Some people have loads of ISK, I don't think a few PLEX here and there will matter to them too much if they want to get up to some mischief.



If someone needs to spend 500 mil an isk a month, times the number of alts needed to go after a 10 man noob corp ... that's a hell of a lot of ISK to go after 300,000 ISK ships. What's the point? Seems like they are greifing them selves.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Soporo
#202 - 2012-03-16 02:12:59 UTC
Mirima Thurander wrote:
Guttripper wrote:
wall of text


i can go on and on.

and it all boils down to, eve needs more space.

and we will have are old eve back.


This. Boiled down even more to suit me.

Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats. - H.L. Mencken

Sasha Azala
Doomheim
#203 - 2012-03-16 02:15:28 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Sasha Azala wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Sasha Azala wrote:

You can't eliminate the alt problem as alts are not necessarily just on one account.


If they are not counted in the forumla, for not having an active training cycle, then why not? How many people are going to pay an extra 15 a month just to move the number so they can gank noobs?



Some people have loads of ISK, I don't think a few PLEX here and there will matter to them too much if they want to get up to some mischief.



If someone needs to spend 500 mil an isk a month, times the number of alts needed to go after a 10 man noob corp ... that's a hell of a lot of ISK to go after 300,000 ISK ships. What's the point? Seems like they are greifing them selves.



Is there any reason it has to be a 10 person corp, can it be 5 or 3 even?


Anyway regardless, you're proposing to have corp warfare on a level playing field, meaning a lot of corps won't be able to war-dec other corps. I don't like the idea anyway.

You've probably heard this before many times, EVE is a sandbox. As with any sandbox you should impose the least amount of artificial barriers as possible.

Not all players from the corp are on at the same time anyway and that could make a difference of more than 5% between two corps at war. Who would the goons fight? Are you also including alliances?

I really don't see it working and certainly I think it would kill EVE as it is now.

You may as well just forget war in EVE altogether and just have arena matches.
Noriko Mai
#204 - 2012-03-16 02:42:04 UTC
I started EvE BECAUSE it was so hard to get in. This was the reason I stayed. It was a cool feeling to learn something new every day, figure out how stuff works in eve and finding my niche. Not getting achievements for every crap I've done was realy satisfying.
Imho the biggest problem I see for new players (I know a few) is, if you start without friends in eve and/or don't join a corp, you are lost.

"Meh.." - Albert Einstein

Indahmawar Fazmarai
#205 - 2012-03-16 07:53:25 UTC
Noriko Mai wrote:
I started EvE BECAUSE it was so hard to get in. This was the reason I stayed. It was a cool feeling to learn something new every day, figure out how stuff works in eve and finding my niche. Not getting achievements for every crap I've done was realy satisfying.
Imho the biggest problem I see for new players (I know a few) is, if you start without friends in eve and/or don't join a corp, you are lost.


And if you find new friends and/or join a corp, they may backstab you and get over with it for free. It's not as if the game rules enabled to punish griefers in any meaningful way, i.e. a way that could cause griefers to leave the game as often as their victims leave.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#206 - 2012-03-16 08:49:33 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Noriko Mai wrote:
I started EvE BECAUSE it was so hard to get in. This was the reason I stayed. It was a cool feeling to learn something new every day, figure out how stuff works in eve and finding my niche. Not getting achievements for every crap I've done was realy satisfying.
Imho the biggest problem I see for new players (I know a few) is, if you start without friends in eve and/or don't join a corp, you are lost.


And if you find new friends and/or join a corp, they may backstab you and get over with it for free. It's not as if the game rules enabled to punish griefers in any meaningful way, i.e. a way that could cause griefers to leave the game as often as their victims leave.


Please define "griefing."

Because I think a lot of people leave the game over what I would call "normal gameplay" to be perfectly honest.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Valei Khurelem
#207 - 2012-03-16 08:55:18 UTC
Quote:

Please define "griefing."

Because I think a lot of people leave the game over what I would call "normal gameplay" to be perfectly honest.


I give you credit Darth Gustav, at least you're not in denial about this like the majority of the forum posters on here.

"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP."   - CCP Ytterbium

Stetson Eagle
Paird Technology
#208 - 2012-03-16 08:58:58 UTC
Florestan Bronstein wrote:
Thorn Galen wrote:
You have the numbers, you know we're losing a small number of new players on a daily basis.
The number of players being lost to EvE outnumber the new players signing-up (who then also become ex-players).

No, I did not say EvE is dying - it's just not growing as well as it could be. Big difference there.

EVE loses more players than it gets in new sign-ups every single day yet it is still growing? Shocked


It's polarising towards more alts on fewer players. The number of sign-ups and characters is irrevelant for the game in the long run, though it's good for company business. If eve wants to live and not die of stagnation and mudflation, new players are needed, not characters. Where is the social reward in future eve if nobody is impressed by any accomplishments in the sandbox, because they have seen it before year and year again?
Stetson Eagle
Paird Technology
#209 - 2012-03-16 09:30:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Stetson Eagle
IMHO griefing is a topic that has been discussed a lot, but it's been mostly rhetoric from both sides. Here's a bit more of the same.

Problem: Eve is dying since it doesn't attract new players, would it be better off without griefing?
Hypothesis: Eve without griefing would grow bigger, "without griefing" means some highsec security (not punishment) mechanics in place?

Pro:
+ qualitively Eve is a game which allows griefing, and a refreshing rarity in that
+ historically Eve has always allowed griefing and still has a rich playerbase; it's working
+ griefing works as a player type filter, those who can deal with it are more fun to play with
+ Eve is an old MMO which will die eventually in any case, better to keep it the rarity it is
+ Eve can keep it's dedicated players playing longer than many MMO's because of it's sandbox quality which includes griefing playstyles, (insert studies here)
(+ some forms of griefing work as a balancing gameplay and economical factor, e.g. Hulkageddon, corp infiltration and suicide ganking -> they should be left out of this discussion)

Con
- Eve needs new players or it will stagnate and die
- quantitatively games that don't allow griefing grow larger (insert examples and numbers here)
- historically there are many analogies of games older than eve which still live, that don't allow griefing so it can be argued that disallowing griefing would not kill eve but make it large
- disallowing griefing would bring and keep new players in the game (though some old players might quit, insert poll)
- "the sandbox" is ultimately not meant for the playstyle of lulling in security, and that's a major playstyle not included

Personally I would, at this stage of the game, look really close at including some highsec safety measures. It would totally change the game but it might help against the inevitable stagnation. The game needs to evolve in order to keep it running. Realistically highsec is already fairly safe, and the playstyle of "building up" is much more represented than "griefing". Eve needs to attract new players. The sandbox would not be contracted because of artificial limitations, but expanded because of introducing a large new playstyle of no-risk that is represented by many players who can't have it in the current sandbox.
Valei Khurelem
#210 - 2012-03-16 09:34:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Valei Khurelem
I think what needs to be looked at is making it so that in EVE you can completely avoid griefing if you use common sense, scams for instance are a perfect example of EVE working as it should, yes you get people trying to trick you, but if you read the contract properly and be careful then it's actually fairly easy to avoid being scammed.

When it comes to wardec mechanics etc. however this type of thing is clearly broken and if we are going say it's okay to gank small corporations just for 'lulz' then we need to give newbies legitimate ways of fighting back. Just shrugging and going "If you don't like it this game isn't for you" is just a pathetic excuse not to actually find a way to fix all this and will easily lead to the game deteriorating into nothing which is what has actually happened to the majority of EVE Online space.

For instance one daft thing I've been seeing is many forum posters here whining about high security, people stay in high security because 0.0 and low sec offer nothing but ganking, there are no good incentives to get out there. I tried starting a noob alt. in 0.0 space and it was ridiculous. You had to purchase things from high sec and fly all the way through gate camps just to even be prepared there because there were no NPCs selling skillbooks or blueprints even though there was actually quite a lot of NPC space.

"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP."   - CCP Ytterbium

Mors Magne
Terra Incognita
#211 - 2012-03-16 09:49:15 UTC
I suspect that when DUST comes out, this will affect Eve quite a lot.

Therefore, I think CCP should implement DUST ( + Eve integration) as best they can, and then see what the situation is like after that.
Rico Minali
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#212 - 2012-03-16 09:50:11 UTC
I too would like to see Eve on a consistant growth curve, however it must never be at the expense of what Eve is. Griefing does make newer players unsub, this is a fact, however without breaking what Eve is, how do you stop it? And what truly qualifies as griefing anyway?

The only thing I suggest is that new players are more often directed to groups who will help them start, help them accept that Eve is what it is and how to best deal with the setbacks and disasters that WILL happen.

You have the rookie channel, this helps a little but you also have idiots in there too. There are groups such as Eve Uni and so on, more of these groups who genuinely want to help newer players would be great.

People do need time to acclimatise to Eve because it is hard, its supposed to be. The best way for people to do this is with a decent corp who will help you. Sadly corps like mine cant take on new players unless they are friends of current members as we simply cant take teh risk of awoxers and spies, but many hisec corps can and do take new people and help them into teh game. From there you can decide how you want to play and move on.

I dont condone ccp handholding, but I do condone players doing so to help new players in.

Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing.

Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#213 - 2012-03-16 10:27:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Destination SkillQueue
Stetson Eagle wrote:
IMHO griefing is a topic that has been discussed a lot, but it's been mostly rhetoric from both sides. Here's a bit more of the same.

Problem: Eve is dying since it doesn't attract new players, would it be better off without griefing
Hypothesis: Eve without griefing would grow bigger, "without griefing" means some highsec security (not punishment) mechanics in place

snipped the rest


Here's the thing. EVE isn't dying and is still attracting new players, so your initial problem doesn't even exist, but let's be generous here. Let's assume that EVE is losing players it could keep, because it allows "griefing". That seems like a reasonable thing to suggest and that way we can avoid being bogged down by arguing about every detail and semantics.

Would EVE grow bigger, if it allowed safety in highsec instead of increased security? Maybe, but maybe not. Your hypothesis wrongly assumes, that the gains would be higher than the losses without justifying it in any way. We also don't know how it would impact the game long term.

The thing to remember is, that EVE has done as well as it has because it provides an experience you don't get from other MMOs and it has done very well indeed. While games providing those secure "griefing" free areas have been much more popular, most of them have actually been less popular games or have dropped below EVE after a period of popularity. Even WoW lost a few million subs recently and new highly celebrated games like SWTOR has been leaking about 10% of their subs each month while relative newcomer RIFT has dropped far below EVE within a year after its release. The playerbase EVE has gathered is well aware what kind of game EVE is and likes it that way. Any change in that nature and some of them will rebel and leave, because CCP has betrayed that vision and is changing the game to something it was never meant to be, while there is no guarantee the new policy will bring new players or keep them in any significant numbers.

So we are at a situation where such change would guarantee the loss of subs, but might make up for it with new ones. Would it? The PvE content in those secure areas is simply not good compared to almost every other MMO on the market. The PvP and player interactions are the whole game that is worth paying for. Since this is a sandbox game, you would also have to severely limit what those player can do. If they get immunity from the rest of us, why should we have to compete against them or allow alts to hide behind that protection? You would practically create two classes of players who likely hate each other with a passion and might as well play separate games entirely.

You argue using stagnation as a reason to implement such changes, but I'd argue your changes would lead to increased stagnation and to the loss of what has kept EVE alive and kicking all these years. I do agree that the game needs to evolve and improve to keep running, but you're not talking about that. You're talking about saving a sandbox game focused almost entirely on player interaction by removing and/or reducing that interaction in order to cater to players who don't like that type of a game to begin with. You're seeing a greener grass over the fence and thinking you can keep what you have and get the other stuff too, if you just cater to both sides. It doesn't work that way. You're just taking a dump in the sandbox, while providing a very lacking game for the players who choose to opt out of the sandbox. It leaves everyone unhappy and disapointed. If you came to the game for the harsh sandbox, safe areas partly negate the whole design. If you came to play in the safe areas, your gameplay options are very limited and if you want to access additional content, you're told to play an entirely different type of a game.

It might seem harsh, but I think it's simply a better option to tell people wanting such safety to GTFO and play a game that caters to them. It's better for us and for them in the long run and if it bothers CCP that much, they can make a new game to cater specifically to the needs of those players.
Roime
Yamagata Syndicate
Shadow Cartel
#214 - 2012-03-16 10:35:44 UTC
That is one damn fine post, signed.

.

gfldex
#215 - 2012-03-16 10:58:15 UTC
Kile Kitmoore wrote:
Does it really come down to getting new players into friendly corporations and that is the true silver bullet to keeping these new players?


No. EVE is about winning or losing. A friendly corp wont make you win. There used to be a time when the wardec system had a meaning and was forcing bad CEOs out of business. There are so many small fail corps in EVE that provide new players with nothing but boredom. Sadly, I don't believe CCP will understand the function of empire wars and will water down highsec even further.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.

Digital Messiah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#216 - 2012-03-16 11:13:21 UTC
There are a few people in this thread who severely under-estimate the sheer awe of EVE-Online. You guys do realize it is about to hit it's ten year anniversary right? With the number of players we have now. It is a milestone few mmo's could hope to boast.

I agree with the current situation of incursions being an inflating problem. A simple solution is to make them low sec only. "easily explained as concord having gained an advantage in recognizing incoming fleets and decimating them." To those who DO NOT want to fight for their incursion sights. Go do level 4's, mine, industry, or trade.

As a final note to those who have read my wall of text. Why do you care to bring up EVE's current player numbers? Now that you have brought it up however. I expect to see a means to bring in new numbers. Be creative, we are all waiting on the edge of our seat for a brilliant marketing plan. Otherwise please go post in an already existing thread on this drab subject.

Something clever

gfldex
#217 - 2012-03-16 11:15:26 UTC
Terminal Insanity wrote:
My solution would be to limit the number of corps a player can create each year, and require FACTION standing to create new corps. OR just vastly increase Corp and Alliance creation fees.

Why? Because limiting/preventing small boring corporations from forming would greatly reduce the chance of new players joining small boring corps. It would limit corp creation to players who have really thought it out, and are willing to give that corp the dedication to create it. The corps that ARE created are more likely to be successful.


Faction ständing would not work because any new player with a sliver of faction ständing would lower the corp faction ständing. As a result you force new players who want to play in a corp to farm faction ständing.

How much creation fee would you like to see? Lets say it would be 1B ISK. With the liquid ISK I have today I could create 30 corps. As I'm in full ISK making mode the autopilot is playing a lot. I'm not. How would that help a new player?

If at all you have to have a recruitment fee for the corp to be payed for every new player that joins. But then corps would simply demand new players to pay that fee after they joined.

I'm terribly sorry but there will be bad corps led by bad CEOs all the time because you can't fight the Dunning-Kruger effect. At best you can do is to force bad corps out of business. CCP seams not to like the idea of forcing corps out of business in highsec, so that wont happen anymore.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.

Opertone
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#218 - 2012-03-16 11:38:57 UTC
Don't know much for everyone

As for me, things that make me quit eve.

Veterans - you get in, you get started, you are 20 mill SP away from people who can play and enjoy, you are 100 mill ISK behind. You can't play your first year, only gear up and train skills, 12 months of preparation if you are new to the game.

Slow training, 8 mill SP in your first year. Unless you spend serious cash on plex. Still not able to PvP, still can't join a decent corporation. Your skills are too low.

Your killboard is too low. You were in NC, we can't recruit you. Oh no, you were with pirates, we can't recruit you.

Stupid inflation caused by macros and bots. Spend serious cash on plex or die of grind. Grind for the isk, which others get for free is awful. Stupid scams, bots and exploiters run their operations free of any consequences. No CCP effective policy.

Stupid, braindead, shameless alt society. CEO employs an alt and rips the corp off. Spies. Cheat. Monkey style. Scam, stupid, annoying and running from consequences crowd. We know some alliance who play games and troll internet for the sole purpose of that disturbing behavior. SA. NA by nature.

A game which is hard to enjoy because of many factors. Eve changed much. Stupid crowd is on the wagon.

This post sums up why the 'best' work with DCM inc.

WARP DRIVE makes eve boring

really - add warping align time 300% on gun aggression and eve becomes great again

gfldex
#219 - 2012-03-16 11:47:15 UTC
Stetson Eagle wrote:
+ qualitively Eve is a game which allows griefing, and a refreshing rarity in that


Grief play is not allowed in EVE Online and punished by GMs on a regular basis. Since you seam to have a problem to understand what grief play is, here a fairly incomplete list.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.

gfldex
#220 - 2012-03-16 11:59:11 UTC
Rico Minali wrote:
People do need time to acclimatise to Eve because it is hard, its supposed to be. The best way for people to do this is with a decent corp who will help you. Sadly corps like mine cant take on new players unless they are friends of current members as we simply cant take teh risk of awoxers and spies, but many hisec corps can and do take new people and help them into teh game. From there you can decide how you want to play and move on.

I dont condone ccp handholding, but I do condone players doing so to help new players in.


You mean like we did it 7 years ago? After finishing the tutorial that took you 10 minutes there was simply no other way to learn how to play the game then to ask around. Folk told you to join a corp. And that's what we did and what was working quite well back then. I was in 0.0 15 days after I joined EVE and got on my first killmail. Could have been faster but there was no way to tell if somebody was still on trial in the old days, so players had to wait.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.