Ships & Modules

EDIT: Feel free to peruse original OP it is unchanged below. In the progress of the thread it was discovered that this is too much of a slap in the face for most people.

This thread is now (and has been since page 3 or 2) about whether as TQ is currently the advantage rests with distributing skill points first to more classes and then to more races for its class (past the 3rd race that is). Past page 3 you will find a debate on this poitn and permutations which you may find useful, or not.

OP's current position is that there sould be some incentive for training all four races in a class (i.e. HACs, or Cruisers or BCs etc). This can be marginal or token but it needs to be there. The details are found in some nice examples in pages 5, 6 and 7.

The majority of the feedback has been against this idea, partially because of disagreement and partially because of lack of comprehension (which some time can even verge on the comical, see page 7). Enjoy!
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Well what it says... but I also have a specific proposal

Cheap good vessels. Moar shock

Ok how can this be?

PROPOSAL:

1 new vessel in the classes frigate, cruiser, Battleship.

It is tech I. It costs same as the tier 3 BS etc (slightly increased mineral value from existing tech I counter parts)

It requires: relevant skill at 5 for all races (gal/minm/cald/amr frg 5), relevant race weapon spec at 5 and some more generic skilss at the 5.

IT PROVIDES:
FRIG: Interceptor and AF capabilities rolled in one for tech I price
CRUISER: Hac / Covrt recon rolled in one for tech I price
BS: Sames as tier 3 but + speed OR dps OR defence buff for tech I (tier 4) price

I belive the advantage conferred by this is a lot fairer time/isk return than the advantages to be gained in other ways in EvE.

The impetus behind this proposal form those wishing it for themselves will be by necessity limited (SP intensive) but I also ask those with an affinity for fairness and justice to support it selflessly

I see your point... you must be referring to the fact that training one race up and then straight to Titan should have the reward of omgwtfBBQ with your SCs whereas using the same SPs to train subcaps for all 4 races all the way should have no reward... yes now I see the Light...

Ah now you make more sense than no no no.

However the points you nake operate to the extreme only.

It IS a gripe I have with the game that training allows you to use better ships but only when they are more expensive.
I DO think that extreme trainign should lead to a better ISK efficiency.
I would NOT insist on insane effieciency but a negotiation process has to start somewhere.

Right now we are all CCPs little lemmings laways havng to secure more isk for shinier toys. I think years of SP trainign commitment should lead to shinier ships at an increased ISK efficiency.

Thus insist on my view. Your arguments are only valid to the extent of tempering the rewards and that is only to be expected. Can you give me a reason why there should be NO reward like today?

I confirm that the thread is wrapped up as far as ISK efficiency form training Industry and Social are concerned. Now please explain to me about the other 6833893625295960970 skills. Or not.

You miss the point entirely or simply refuse to admit it for whatever reason.

1. Training one and only race leads to caps suprcaps and their advanteges quicker. Crosstraining offers no advantage. It should offer a competitive advantage (other than alleviating the fear of the Nerfbat. Here I ll even list your arguments for you to move things along).

2. Why train and train only to fly more expensive vessels? There also has to be a progression where more training brings more ISK effective hulls.

These are two separate and VERY fundamental reasons for the change I ask.

There is a need to address this. One way to do so is the new vessels I suggested. Another would be to allow say 5-10% of the racial bonus trained to bleed through to other races vessel used. (i.e. fly Gallente recon with Minmattar recon 5 trained also and you get 5-10% of the range bonus to your potential web that you would get if you were in a Hugin. Vice verca in the Hugin you would have 5-10% of the range bonus of an Arazu for your scrams.

Please try to see the big picture:

There is an injustice and imbalance here and there are eleventyone interesting ways to counter it.

I have given two or three in this thread and would be willing to discuss another fifty options. But denying that the problem exists is folly in my opinion m8.

1) It should. Specializing should get you a certain ship classes advantages faster, period. Cross-training still allows you to be more diverse and opens up faction ships.

2) Because generally those are more effective ships and do more ISK's value in damage during their life-span. This is relative on how experienced the pilot is, mind you. Larger ship classes are very valuable to fleets.

3) You're telling me to see the "big picture" but you're choosing to ignore the wealth of skills that give you more ISK effiency. As far as I can tell, the "big picture" is that you want bonuses for training everything except the skill that do what you're asking for.

4) There is no injustice or imbalance. Let me break it down for you: You want ALL THE SHINY SHIPS but not at SHINY SHIP prices and you don't want to train GET-SHINY-SHIP-FASTER skills because you want SHINY-GUNS skills. Also, you think it's unfair that the people that get 25% of the SHINY SHIPS accomplish that faster than people who get ALL THE SHINY SHIPS.

Guess it's my folly then, but good luck in your endeavor with this hilarious over-buff proposal.

How does a bog tech I cruiser sound that gets 4 racial bonus at 3% per lvl instead of 5% per lvl that the normal tech I cruiser gets.

Example: Think of a Moa with a bit less range bonus (6% instead of 10%) with a 2% tracking (p/l gallente cr.) , 2% cap (p/l ammar cruiser) and 2% faloff (p/l minm cruiser). Miner cost twice that of a Moa. Requires all creuiser lvl 5s and perhaps more. No tech II resists and slots.

It might tick off tech II BPO owners / inventors a bit but personally I am ok with that

Aaaaaaahhhhhhhh I said I would not reply...

Anyway please answer this:

Do you think that right now in EvE specialising and crosstraining (in combat related SPs) are equally valid strategies or that really there is one overly preferred (and widely preachered in the forums and ingame) strategy?

If the latter would you opose a game balancing act to restore equality and if not why?

Thank you

I think both are viable if you're cross-training with a goal in mind (being able to fly certain ships) and not just training all skills in a ship size for ***** & giggles. Pirate faction ships are particularly nice in this case. If you're training intelligently this isn't much of a commitment.

That said if you have one specific ship in mind training non-applicable skills isn't worthwhile. Shocking.

Maybe I can petition for Mining skills to make my Minmatar guns stronger, too. Since essentially what you're saying is that training in multiple areas should be an absolute global buff even when you're not using skills relevant to what you're flying.

This is real progress we are making now. Yes this is exactly what I mean, not for mining skills applying to guns of course, I do hope that was merely sarcasm. Instead with gun skills in general having a smaller effect to other races guns and ship skills in general having a smaller effect in other races ships. I am looking at something as small as a 3% overall usefulness increase if need be.

Beggars can't be choosers and you got to start somewhere.

No, we're not making progress. No, it wasn't sarcasm. If you want to train [random skills] and get a bonus to your other skills, I want to train [random skills] and get a bonus, too.

Basically, your complaint seems to boil down to "a Titan pilot with a dedicated skill plan is much more efficient in SP than a Titan pilot who trains for literally years of skills that DON'T APPLY to his Titan". Well, no ****?