These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

New dev blog: Rebalancing EVE, one ship at a time

First post First post
Author
stoicfaux
#1781 - 2012-03-13 00:25:55 UTC
In regards to the newbies getting 'forced' into a potential path ship skill path, in theory, the ship rebalancing, aka tiers2roles, should, if done right, make "every" ship in a faction lineup worth flying thus minimizing the "need" to cross-train.

On the downside, the potential benefit wouldn't be appreciated if CCP takes forever to re-balance the ships, or if CCP screws it up.


On a side note, since newbies will be "forced" into a faction skill-tree, there should be a training bonus if they join the faction militia (i.e. participate in FW.)

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

YuuKnow
The Scope
#1782 - 2012-03-13 00:58:51 UTC
Please don't make capital ships a level 4 skill.

A stepwise increase in the requirement is more logical.

Frigate level 3 leads to Destroyers
Destroy level 3 leads to Cuisers
Cruiser level 4 leads to Battlecruisers
Battlecruisers level 4 leads to Battleships
Battleships level 5 leads to Capitals ships
Capital Ships level 5 leads to Titans (plus lots of level 5 ancillary skills).

More logical and keeps capitals from being so common.
Sigras
Conglomo
#1783 - 2012-03-13 08:09:41 UTC
If they raised the rank of advanced spaceship command to 11 would it stop all of your whining?
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
SCRUBS.
#1784 - 2012-03-13 08:52:29 UTC
Sigras wrote:
If they raised the rank of advanced spaceship command to 11 would it stop all of your whining?

inb4 shitstorm

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}

Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#1785 - 2012-03-13 10:21:03 UTC
Hello friendly Devs,

How nice all those shiny excel sheets and diagrams and whatitsnames. I am overjoyed!

Can I please add my punny little input:

1) If you somehow manage to make all unused ships useful with this, without in the process making those that are used today useless or nerfed down to do only half of what they can do today I will wuv you long time. I am a sceptic for now but will give you the benefit of a doubt.

2) Because this is heavily impacting on combat balance and no one wants a doe eyed college graduate making decisions that look nice on coloured diagram paper alone please make a rule that the dev team needs to include at least one person with say 3k+ kills and 500+ solo kill on battle clinic and that this person would need to sign for the final go ahead on the changes.

If you did this I would not even be half miffed about who it would be... it would definately reign in at least 50% of the madness potential this has...

Good luck and all the best,

King Regards,

Crellion

What?
Alfred Mahan
Task Force 42
#1786 - 2012-03-13 11:35:00 UTC
Alx Warlord wrote:
Katy Ling wrote:
S CCP Ytterbium wrote:

... lowering the Covetor's Mining Barge requirement from 5 to 4 ...


that sounds like a very wise chance, as for years, players have looked how ridiculous it looked, to have such a small training time difference betwin the Covetor and the T2 Hulk

how about Astrogeology down from 5 to 4 too ?


This way the minning barges retriever and covetor would get too close.

Also the first mining barge is useless compared to the retriever. so you guys could reduce the requirements for it, i mean, you could remove the Industry 5 prerequisite from the mining barges skill and place it as a secondary or tertiary requirement for the mining barges. this would ballance things.

Proposal:

Procurer: ( 3d 12h - from- 8d 8h)
Mining Barge:1
Astrogeology:3
Science:4
Minning:4
Industry: 3 (Down from 5, about 5 days reduction in training for this ship, making it useful for starters to use.)

Retriever: (11d 16h)
Mining Barges:3
Astrogeology:4
Science:4
Minning:4
Industry: 5

Covetor: ( 29d 18h -from- 49d 6h)
Mining Barges:4 ( Down from 5, making it an option before hulk)
Astrogeology:5
Science:4
Minning:4
Industry: 5

Skiff: (50d 4h)
Mackinaw: (50d 4h)
Hulk: (51d 1h)


Good suggestion. We also need the mining drone bonus to Gallente and Amarr T1 Cruisers beefed up, so they don't have to mine in T1 Frigs while training Retriever (Procurer with above implemented)
i hatechosingnames
Insert Corporation Name Here
#1787 - 2012-03-13 15:23:19 UTC
If when this goes live we could potentially be logged off in hostile space, the added skill points in the racial destroyer / battle cruiser skills could then put us over our current clone skill point limit.

Should we get podded before we make it back to friendly station to upgrade our clone will we get reimbursed for any lost skill points if this giving us free skill points ends up losing us skill points?
Or perhaps a free clone upgrade to the next grade for anyone you add skill points to?
Sigras
Conglomo
#1788 - 2012-03-13 17:12:46 UTC
^^ this is the first legitimate problem I have heard with the plan to just give everyone the SP for the additional skills; however, this should not be a problem if they give you 1+ week of lead time which should be enough for even the deepest WH corp to get all of it's members into more advanced clones.
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
SCRUBS.
#1789 - 2012-03-13 18:33:21 UTC
I guess they will just bump you up a clone class if that happens. Would be pretty ****** if you went a few mill over and died because of location. On the other hand, now u have the chance to just bump it up yourself. Would be pretty stupid not to do it, if you know what is gonna happen.

I'll wait for a CCP response on this though. As we know (we know this RIGHT?!) they are thinking hard about how to do this, so I don't think they will leave this question unanswered.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}

Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1790 - 2012-03-13 23:57:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Soldarius
I've already commented once. But what the hey. I'll do it again.

If you already have BCs trained, but only trained the racial cruiser skills to 3, you are a failboat.

First the difference in SP is about 1 day of training per race per level. This will only improve your performance in cruisers. So HTFU.

The secondary (perhaps primary by CCP's reckoning) effcet, will be to have folks in cruisers longer, thus perhaps generating more use and interest in those already vastly under-utilized hulls.

Most people (imo) only train cruiser 5 to get into recons or logistics because the BCs seem so much better. But a lot of the T1 cruisers are actually quite viable in pvp. We won't talk about the pirate faction cruisers (cough*Cynabal*cough).

tl;dr: train+fly more cruisers. You might actually enjoy it.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Seraphiel Cherubim
Universal Syndicate
#1791 - 2012-03-14 00:03:13 UTC
Say if these changes go through, Marauders are the only ship that require Battleship V?
I also agree with all those who posted before me - battleship V should be a requirement for Capitals. it make sense... after all if you can't fly a 1.5km long battleship perfectly, who says you're ready to jump into a carrier or dreadnought.

Also since majority of ships are having their skill requirement lowered from V to IV on prerequisites only to have the destroyer skill brought up instead - isn't that counter intuitive? Personally I have only put one point ever in Destroyers since they are only good in the beginning for level 2 missions and of course later for salvaging until you get the noctis.

Quote:
Example:
# Before, training for a Harbinger required you to train for Amarr Frigate 4, Amarr Cruiser 3 and Battlecruisers at 2
# Before, training for an Absolution required you to train for Amarr Frigate 4, Amarr Cruiser 5, Battlecruiser at 5 and Heavy Assault Ships at 4
# Now, training for a Harbinger requires you to train for Amarr Frigate 4, Amarr Destroyer 4, Amarr Cruiser 4 and then Amarr Battlecruiser at 1.
# Now, training for an Absolution requires you to train for Amarr Frigate 4, Amarr Destroyer 4, Amarr Cruiser 4 and Amarr Battlecruiser at 5. There is no more need for the Amarr Cruiser 5 and Heavy Assault Ship at 4.


IMO please don't make it so we have to train up destroyers higher since they aren't that useful. If there were more hulls per say and they each had more uses... then maybe i'd be for it.
As for the racial skills all together... have the dev's considered vets who have cross trained? Even if they would grandfather them into their characters race and give them X million SP, who says the players has to put them into those skills? Also with granting SP to players i hope the devs really ask the community more before going through with this change, since once those SP are out they cannot be taken back.
Alexandra Alt
Doomheim
#1792 - 2012-03-14 00:29:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexandra Alt
This comming from a player that can fly 90% of all sub cap ships, along with all their support skill and weapons sorted, I hope with the change I get all racial ships introduced as 5 as been said, no skill refund whatever, if there will be SP refunds effectively ppl are getting more SP's than they trained for and they'll be spent where they want.

People with BC5 and Destroyer 5 get all races BC/Destr 5 simple.

Question now, figuring the tone of the dev blog, are the races keeping their traits ? or are we just mixing everything up where we have basically the same ship for all races where only the name and the gun changes ?!
For instance, do gallente still keep the drones bonus and have drone focused boats ? does caldari still keep the ecm perks or all races will get them too ? etc etc.

I'm all in for simplifying the ship skill trees, I'm not all in for streamlining all ships for the same role across races just to make them easier to maintain balance wise.
M1NeR
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
#1793 - 2012-03-14 01:28:32 UTC  |  Edited by: M1NeR
Read Q&A, post no longer relevant %) .
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1794 - 2012-03-14 02:53:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Seraphiel Cherubim wrote:
Say if these changes go through, Marauders are the only ship that require Battleship V?

You're forgetting black ops BS's, but considering peoples opinions about their usefulness I doubt the omission detracts from your argument.

Seraphiel Cherubim wrote:
As for the racial skills all together... have the dev's considered vets who have cross trained? Even if they would grandfather them into their characters race and give them X million SP, who says the players has to put them into those skills? Also with granting SP to players i hope the devs really ask the community more before going through with this change, since once those SP are out they cannot be taken back.

One of the options seems to be a direct skill replacement instead of an SP refund in which case abuses from giving out massive amount of SP are negated.
Sinooko
Tharumec
Gespenster Kompanie
#1795 - 2012-03-14 21:32:52 UTC
Making all ships useful is a hell of a good idea!
Aamrr
#1796 - 2012-03-14 22:13:01 UTC
Good dev blog. As long as you follow the "if you could fly it yesterday, you can fly it tomorrow" guideline, you should be in good shape.

I think a lot of people here are jumping to conclusions when they don't know how the reimbursement will happen. I trust you guys to make it happen smoothly. When it comes to skill points, you always have. We appreciate that.
Veryez
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1797 - 2012-03-14 23:25:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Veryez
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
While changes of this scope will always be controversial, and may involve a bit of inconvenience, the fact that CCP is tackling such issues illustrates how much focus and love FiS is getting.

We all can (and should) argue about the best way to refresh various areas of the game, but the most important thing to keep in mind is that CCP is putting a ton of effort into refreshing the game!


"a bit of inconvenience" - well one less vote for you. Does the fact that I will go from flying all commandships at max level, to not being able to fly any of them seem like "a bit of inconvenience"? Or how about the fact, that after it's done I will have to return to empire from Wh space where I've lived for 3 years to buy 4 skills that I've already trained? Lets hope our exit isn't 50j in 0.0. Yeah I spent almost a year training all gang links to 5, and all commandships to 5 (needed 4xCruiser 5 before or was that forgotten), so that I could be useful in any situation. All gone so that I'll start using a Prophecy? Yup sounds well thought out to me. And as for CCP's statement that they will "reinburse SP already trained and look at giving you all racial ships at your current level", quick everyone train BC 5 and Destroyer 5 NOW, as in a few weeks it will be worth four times as much...Sounds way too good to be true.

As far as making "all ships useful" - sounds nice in theory CCP, but lets face it no matter what you do, some ships will always be more popular than others. Besides, I'm never in favor of nerfing any ship (even the ones I don't bother flying) as it always seems to hurt more than it helps, especially since the people screaming "nerf" are rarely the ones that can fly the ship (and sorry being shot by a ship does not make you an expert on that ship, only after you fly a ship for a while and understand it's advantages and disadvantages should your comments on "balance" matter). Not to mention the ships getting "buffed" will in some cases need significant buffs to be used. For example what buffs are you thinking about for the slasher to bring it up to the level of the rifter (as they have the same bonus atm, one would think they perform the same role)...Oh I know, lets nerf the rifter - yeah the players will love that....

Wholesale changes were tried in Revelations I, we've only just recovered from that disaster. Other than making me restock my hanger, as I can fly every sub-cap ship atm, what's the goal? While it sounds good to have every ship be useful, there are simply too many sub-cap ships to find a role for each of them, so there's bound to be overlap. Where there's overlap, one ship is bound to be better/preferred compared to another, sounds like a hopeless task to me, that will only upset people who see their "favorite" ship nerfed and have to spend iskies replacing it.

Edit - In fact the more I think about this the bigger a disaster it becomes, do you mean to tell me I need racial Destroyer 4 and racial BC 4 to fly a battleship? So if you don't give me extra SP, you're telling me I won't be able to fly a battleship in more than one race? Even though I have BS 5 (not to mention all the rest) for every race, I'll be stuck flying one race's ships for 3 months? 3/4's of my hanger becomes useless on patch day. I ONLY fly ships trained to lvl 5, so now I have to make sure I'm on a P/W respec and sit in hanger for 3 months so I can relearn to fly ships I've been flying for the last 6 years? And you thought learning skills were bad (yes I remember sitting in the hanger training them since I trained them early in life) ? This isn't giving us "new" skills to train, it's forcing us to retrain skills to fly the same ships we were flying the day before patch day.
Taius Pax
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1798 - 2012-03-15 02:04:36 UTC
If I understand the new ship lines correctly - you're trying to introduce a class system similar to Everquest or WoW applied to the ships.

Personally I'd rather have a few to half the ships being suboptimal if it didn't mean a given ship could only be used a certain way. The current system gives room to experiment and try different set ups. It needs some balance, sure, but on the whole it's pretty good. Please don't take more sand out of the sand box.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1799 - 2012-03-15 03:28:01 UTC
Veryez wrote:
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
While changes of this scope will always be controversial, and may involve a bit of inconvenience, the fact that CCP is tackling such issues illustrates how much focus and love FiS is getting.

We all can (and should) argue about the best way to refresh various areas of the game, but the most important thing to keep in mind is that CCP is putting a ton of effort into refreshing the game!


"a bit of inconvenience" - well one less vote for you. Does the fact that I will go from flying all commandships at max level, to not being able to fly any of them seem like "a bit of inconvenience"? Or how about the fact, that after it's done I will have to return to empire from Wh space where I've lived for 3 years to buy 4 skills that I've already trained? Lets hope our exit isn't 50j in 0.0. Yeah I spent almost a year training all gang links to 5, and all commandships to 5 (needed 4xCruiser 5 before or was that forgotten), so that I could be useful in any situation. All gone so that I'll start using a Prophecy? Yup sounds well thought out to me. And as for CCP's statement that they will "reinburse SP already trained and look at giving you all racial ships at your current level", quick everyone train BC 5 and Destroyer 5 NOW, as in a few weeks it will be worth four times as much...Sounds way too good to be true.

As far as making "all ships useful" - sounds nice in theory CCP, but lets face it no matter what you do, some ships will always be more popular than others. Besides, I'm never in favor of nerfing any ship (even the ones I don't bother flying) as it always seems to hurt more than it helps, especially since the people screaming "nerf" are rarely the ones that can fly the ship (and sorry being shot by a ship does not make you an expert on that ship, only after you fly a ship for a while and understand it's advantages and disadvantages should your comments on "balance" matter). Not to mention the ships getting "buffed" will in some cases need significant buffs to be used. For example what buffs are you thinking about for the slasher to bring it up to the level of the rifter (as they have the same bonus atm, one would think they perform the same role)...Oh I know, lets nerf the rifter - yeah the players will love that....

Wholesale changes were tried in Revelations I, we've only just recovered from that disaster. Other than making me restock my hanger, as I can fly every sub-cap ship atm, what's the goal? While it sounds good to have every ship be useful, there are simply too many sub-cap ships to find a role for each of them, so there's bound to be overlap. Where there's overlap, one ship is bound to be better/preferred compared to another, sounds like a hopeless task to me, that will only upset people who see their "favorite" ship nerfed and have to spend iskies replacing it.

Edit - In fact the more I think about this the bigger a disaster it becomes, do you mean to tell me I need racial Destroyer 4 and racial BC 4 to fly a battleship? So if you don't give me extra SP, you're telling me I won't be able to fly a battleship in more than one race? Even though I have BS 5 (not to mention all the rest) for every race, I'll be stuck flying one race's ships for 3 months? 3/4's of my hanger becomes useless on patch day. I ONLY fly ships trained to lvl 5, so now I have to make sure I'm on a P/W respec and sit in hanger for 3 months so I can relearn to fly ships I've been flying for the last 6 years? And you thought learning skills were bad (yes I remember sitting in the hanger training them since I trained them early in life) ? This isn't giving us "new" skills to train, it's forcing us to retrain skills to fly the same ships we were flying the day before patch day.

Why should Trebor loose a vote to your inability to read CCP Ytterbium's posts regarding SP/skill compensation options?
Veryez
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1800 - 2012-03-15 04:48:31 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
[
Why should Trebor loose a vote to your inability to read CCP Ytterbium's posts regarding SP/skill compensation options?


He loses my vote for gross misrepresentation of facts, his statements (made before CCP Ytterbium) are a deliberate miscalculatation.

Lets look at just one of my characters:

4xRacial Frigate 5, 4xRacial Cruiser 5, BC 5, 4xRacial BS 5, every t2 ship to 5 (even dictor), Destroyer 1 (since I never bother with them).

So currently, I can fly Every cruiser class ship in the Game at level 5, Every BC and Commandship @ lvl 5, and Every BS @ lvl 5. After Patch Day do you really believe I'm going to be handed 4xRacial Destroyer 4 (that's what it looks like from the chart, but it could be 5, I can't tell) and 4xRacial BC 5, especially Destroyer 4 as I never trained it? You could almost make a case for 4xRacial BC 5, as I have BC 5 currently, but in any case unless I get handed a skill I've never trained (because it's worthless for what I do), I will not be able to fly Anything I currently have above the frigate level.

Another character is max skilled in 2 races, but again only has destroyers 2, will he too get destroyer 4/5 in those 2 races? If so shouldn't he quickly train Cruiser 3 in the other two races to gain a bunch of free skills?

Lets follow this to it's logical conclusion, if CCP really means "You won't lose the ability to fly any ships" then to be fair, everyone should get 4xRacial Destroyer 4/5 and perhaps 4xRacial BC 4/5 (for BS pilots) which means this "change" is actually a nerf to newer players as they will now have to train skills that we are given for free, because we were playing the day before patch day. This sounds very unlike CCP. Nerfing new players is something they've always opposed.

So bottom line, while I believe CCP is "looking" at this, No where did CCP say you are going to get something for nothing. While I don't expect to lose SP (that CCP did state) I find it hard to believe I will be handed free stuff. I don't believe it can be accomplished and fully expect to logon after patch day and find most of my hanger completely worthless.

Lets look closely at CCP Ytterbium's language:

" it has been said before, but allow us to repeat again, that we do not want to cut ships you can already fly. Thus, having BC skill at 5 would mean you get all four variations at 5. " No promises, just what they "want".

"it depends on how it is done. We may just bluntly give all four variants at V if you had battlecruiser V for example, or maybe require that you also add the relevant Cruiser skill trained at level 3 to be eligible. On the latter case, just don't train the cruiser 3 skill, and you should not receive the new racial battlecruiser at 5." Again no promise, just a "thought".

About forcing people to train Destroyer 4 - "we have been discussing that before this blog went out, and we will keep considering options until we come up with a solution that improves this situation." No solution mentioned here.

"To remind it again, there are other options to consider, but no matter which one which choose, you won't lose anything out of the skill reimbursement plan." Ah but will we gain anything? Because to do what I do at this moment, I will have to gain quite a few SP.

Yes your glass if 1/2 full, mine's 1/2 empty, but perhaps that's because I've been here a while.