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Incoming titan adjustments

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BioZvin
The Acheron
Unforgiving.
#1601 - 2012-03-14 15:51:06 UTC  |  Edited by: BioZvin
baltec1 wrote:
BioZvin wrote:

i have no problem with the way it is or was, or even an change to tracking. I have a problem with my ship being effectively the only ship that can do nothing at all to a ship of another class. A battleship can hit a ceptor, most even have drones to defend it self. And lets be honest here a titan on its own atm can't even defend itself vs one dictor/HIC.

in original post i assumed that titans will be useless against all sub caps, witch I personalty think this nuff will do. But if it doesn't wait a month...


You dont want your ship to be nerfed to be useless without support yet defend the right to invalidate 99% of ships in EVE...


So wait a ship is invalidated when it cannot do anything against another one ? **** you even took away my drones....(last patch)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1602 - 2012-03-14 15:52:05 UTC
BioZvin wrote:


So wait a ship is invalidated when it cannot do anything against another one ?


Welcome to all subcaps and carriers/dreads lives over the last year.
Pesadel0
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1603 - 2012-03-14 15:54:48 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
BioZvin wrote:


So wait a ship is invalidated when it cannot do anything against another one ?


Welcome to all subcaps and carriers/dreads lives over the last year.


I will laugh real hard when pl deploys 250 carriers with sentrys , then you will say the carriers are overpowered ?
Handsome Ben Cheese
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1604 - 2012-03-14 15:55:32 UTC
Gertrud ToD wrote:
GeneralDisturbed wrote:

That's very interesting, considering the largest fight I've been present in, in eve, was the recent fight over our old homeland with the russians. And that involved most every major alliance in the game sending fleets. And local barely hit 2000. Considering goons were only a small part of that fight, I'm not sure where our other 7500 are hiding, but I'd love to know.

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/memberCount

My Rifter will bring death to the infidels!
Gertrud ToD
Terrorists of Dimensions
#1605 - 2012-03-14 15:57:44 UTC
Crystal Wolf wrote:

But the use of singular titans isn't what this discussion should be focusing on as it has been established that a singular titan doesn't pose a huge problem. The main focus here is titan blobs and attempting to produce an effective solution.


well this nerf only focuses on the aspect of a titan "blob" of say 50 titans.

this nerf will mean two things -
a) a huge bc/bs blob (many more ships than 50, lets say 600) like goons field them will now be the new winning-blob variant.
b) point a) will be invalid as soon as the ones who are currently fielding 50 titans will field 100 titans

so actually all the nerf does is shift the power from the current "winners" to the current "losers" of a specific conflict, at a time that is very inconveniant for those having titans now,
but in the long run will allow them to simply up the numbers and swing the pendulum back.

and thats actually what most people have been critizising, its not fixing the problem at all, just doing a power shift in the current situation.
Triskian
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1606 - 2012-03-14 15:57:47 UTC
Handsome Ben Cheese wrote:
Gertrud ToD wrote:
GeneralDisturbed wrote:

That's very interesting, considering the largest fight I've been present in, in eve, was the recent fight over our old homeland with the russians. And that involved most every major alliance in the game sending fleets. And local barely hit 2000. Considering goons were only a small part of that fight, I'm not sure where our other 7500 are hiding, but I'd love to know.

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/memberCount

My Rifter will bring death to the infidels!


ALLAHU ACKBAR!
Acwron
Meet The Fockers
#1607 - 2012-03-14 15:57:58 UTC
Sentinel Eeex wrote:
Acwron wrote:
GeneralDisturbed wrote:
The amount of neutral PL/Raiden alts in this thread, desperately clinging to the entitled notion that they should be allowed to fly around in unkillable ships because they paid a little more isk, is amazing. When every other ship in the game can be killed by subcaps, but you drop titans and suddenly subcaps are meaningless. If 1600 people show up to take someone's space, and they can only field 200 guys, then THEY DO NOT DESERVE THAT SPACE. This is how the world works. You should not magically be allowed to pick space and control it because you can stick 50 guys into a super ship, and stand it up to 1600 people.


OMG, really? You are really, really disturbed son.
So we paid a little more iskie...just a little. A LITTLE ?
You come with 1600 maels and wanna kill 50 titans?

Man, I'd like to have what this guy smoked, seems to be good shite.


Yeah, that'd be approximately 1000 years of skill training wanting to kill your 100 years of skill training.



Funny way to see it. Well, not funny. Plain stupid. Nothing new. Go back scamming in Jita. Ah, forgot about it, you run a bot for that.
BioZvin
The Acheron
Unforgiving.
#1608 - 2012-03-14 15:57:58 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
BioZvin wrote:


So wait a ship is invalidated when it cannot do anything against another one ?


Welcome to all subcaps and carriers/dreads lives over the last year.


I have seen more then one Titan go down to sub caps, you are right you cannot take down a big group of supers without bringing some firepower yourself.. But as the NC war showed us NC took down quite a few titans with sub caps alone. A few WN ones comes to mind, and at the time we had more titans in the coalition then RDN has now. POST last nerf
Khadmos
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1609 - 2012-03-14 16:00:43 UTC
BioZvin wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
BioZvin wrote:


So wait a ship is invalidated when it cannot do anything against another one ?


Welcome to all subcaps and carriers/dreads lives over the last year.


I have seen more then one Titan go down to sub caps, you are right you cannot take down a big group of supers without bringing some firepower yourself.. But as the NC war showed us NC took down quite a few titans with sub caps alone. A few WN ones comes to mind, and at the time we had more titans in the coalition then RDN has now. POST last nerf


I'm sure those titans were in a fleet of 20+ other titans as well?
Pesadel0
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1610 - 2012-03-14 16:04:46 UTC
Khadmos wrote:
BioZvin wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
BioZvin wrote:


So wait a ship is invalidated when it cannot do anything against another one ?


Welcome to all subcaps and carriers/dreads lives over the last year.


I have seen more then one Titan go down to sub caps, you are right you cannot take down a big group of supers without bringing some firepower yourself.. But as the NC war showed us NC took down quite a few titans with sub caps alone. A few WN ones comes to mind, and at the time we had more titans in the coalition then RDN has now. POST last nerf


I'm sure those titans were in a fleet of 20+ other titans as well?


Nop they were in a fleet full of drakes and maelstroms fighting the god fight :)
Gertrud ToD
Terrorists of Dimensions
#1611 - 2012-03-14 16:05:43 UTC
BioZvin wrote:
Andski wrote:
BioZvin wrote:
And lets be honest here a titan on its own atm can't even defend itself vs one dictor/HIC.


I think it's /fairly/ reasonable that a solo titan should be extremely vulnerable against a dictor or HIC, don't you agree?


Why should it be more than a BS vs a interceptor.

you should explain that a bit:
a bs with a skilled pilot can do several maneuvers when fighting against an interceptor
(depending on the intercetors fit),
either putting the interceptor to a eliptical orbit,
which allows for tracking,
slowing down the interceptor,
use the drones..

the titan vs the interdictor however is pretty much dead in the water.
Slapnuts McGee
Draconis Holding Corporation
#1612 - 2012-03-14 16:08:01 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Slapnuts McGee wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Slapnuts McGee wrote:



Then you must agree that these changes will still leave us with a broken ship, I don't see the point in making changes until CCP defines the role they want this ship to fill.


I'll take a bandaid over what we have now.


no, because people will still cry when their mwd'ing drake gets blapped by a titan. Bandaid doesn't do any good, I agree there needs to be a complete overhaul of the ship but this isn't the way to go about it putting "duct tape" over the problem and hoping it goes away.


Still better than what we have now, plus CCP are going to keep an eye on it and make adjustments as needed.


not trying to troll you, but CCP have a bad record of not revisiting these "adjustments" and leaving it broken for several years. yes it's needs change but let's do it right.
Crystal Wolf
Invision Hosting
#1613 - 2012-03-14 16:08:33 UTC
Gertrud ToD wrote:
Crystal Wolf wrote:

But the use of singular titans isn't what this discussion should be focusing on as it has been established that a singular titan doesn't pose a huge problem. The main focus here is titan blobs and attempting to produce an effective solution.


well this nerf only focuses on the aspect of a titan "blob" of say 50 titans.

this nerf will mean two things -
a) a huge bc/bs blob (many more ships than 50, lets say 600) like goons field them will now be the new winning-blob variant.
b) point a) will be invalid as soon as the ones who are currently fielding 50 titans will field 100 titans

so actually all the nerf does is shift the power from the current "winners" to the current "losers" of a specific conflict, at a time that is very inconveniant for those having titans now,
but in the long run will allow them to simply up the numbers and swing the pendulum back.

and thats actually what most people have been critizising, its not fixing the problem at all, just doing a power shift in the current situation.


This is true however CCP in response to one of my earlier posts said that almost anything that reduces titan numbers and titan blobbing is considered a desirable outcome. So yes you may be right but if alliances start fielding more titans to combat the nerf then CCP will just try something else which may generate more tears than we have at the moment.

The biggest problem with this thread is a lack of solid direction you just have people posting god knows what by page 80. Don't get me wrong there have been many intelligent responses to this thread but things like some of the goon conspiracy posts i have been seeing don't help things at all.

.
Sentinel Eeex
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1614 - 2012-03-14 16:15:01 UTC
Acwron wrote:
Sentinel Eeex wrote:
Acwron wrote:
GeneralDisturbed wrote:
The amount of neutral PL/Raiden alts in this thread, desperately clinging to the entitled notion that they should be allowed to fly around in unkillable ships because they paid a little more isk, is amazing. When every other ship in the game can be killed by subcaps, but you drop titans and suddenly subcaps are meaningless. If 1600 people show up to take someone's space, and they can only field 200 guys, then THEY DO NOT DESERVE THAT SPACE. This is how the world works. You should not magically be allowed to pick space and control it because you can stick 50 guys into a super ship, and stand it up to 1600 people.


OMG, really? You are really, really disturbed son.
So we paid a little more iskie...just a little. A LITTLE ?
You come with 1600 maels and wanna kill 50 titans?

Man, I'd like to have what this guy smoked, seems to be good shite.


Yeah, that'd be approximately 1000 years of skill training wanting to kill your 100 years of skill training.



Funny way to see it. Well, not funny. Plain stupid. Nothing new. Go back scamming in Jita. Ah, forgot about it, you run a bot for that.


ISK numbers are, of course, more important than any other numbers.

Tell me, if logic is that 10bil ISK shouldn't be able to kill 100bil ISK, why is it then ok that 2.5bil SP should kill 25bil SP?

A mystery.
Sentinel Eeex
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1615 - 2012-03-14 16:15:08 UTC
Slapnuts McGee wrote:
Vile rat wrote:
Slapnuts McGee wrote:
Vile rat wrote:
Slapnuts McGee wrote:

We're telling you right now, these changes will not stop blapping and people will still cry about it. All that will happen at the moment is it will delay how long it takes titans to start shooting stuff.



This is actually somewhat true. Strong drop does adjust things back to a broken state.



Then you must agree that these changes will still leave us with a broken ship, I don't see the point in making changes until CCP defines the role they want this ship to fill.



Would you be happier with -75% instead of -50%?


It's still only a short term fix, I think it would make everyone happy if CCP would actually figure out what they want this ship to do and make it enjoyable to fly wheather it serve a non combat or combat role. These "fixes" aren't going to do any good and have the possibility to turn these back into a nonused pos princess which gives no incentive to people to train up it.


"Cmon CCP, we only want to be able to blap frigates with Titans for a wee bit longer... pretty please?"
Styrling
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1616 - 2012-03-14 16:17:00 UTC
Seriouspost, it seems like you lowballed the tracking nerf required.

I was playing around with my Ragnarok to see some tracking numbers I can come to within nearly 90% of the tracking of a 1400mm Maelstrom without going full pimp fit.

3x Meta 13 Tracking Comps
3x Meta 13 Tracking Enhancers
2x Meta 13 Sensor Boosters - Lock time gonna blow :frogcawg:
Strong Drop and an ax-2.5 or Ogdin's

With all this the Titan still has ~16m EHP

Tracking is around 0.0133 compared to around 0.015 for a normal 1400 Mael.

Maybe you should aim for 75-85%?
Swearte Widfarend
Ever Vigilant Fountain Defenders
#1617 - 2012-03-14 16:18:08 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Swearte Widfarend wrote:
I supposed if you are with a good anchor who is doing more than "keep at range" you might get a bit more transversal up to a single opponent. The issue that Vile Rat has (and I don't disagree with the issue) is that when you have a lot of turret Titans on grid, at some point you are going to have a really low transversal to some of them. The problem isn't a single Titan (although that is a separate problem), the problem is a fleet of them. So what CCP has tried to do is to ensure that even if you have the SP and ISK to field a fleet of Titans, you can't hit subcaps. But they missed the target.
…and I understand this. I'm merely pointing out the fallacy of the categorical “MWD → carrier sig” claim, which completely ignores why people fit MWDs to begin with and the effect it has. I'm also pointing out that the effect the MWD has is pretty much irrelvant since they're balanced in such a way that (subject to meta differences in the penalties, of course) the compound effect of bloom and speed means you're pretty much just as easy or hard to hit as if you had the MWD off. The MWD isn't a factor in hitting the target.

Hell, I even made the same argument you did at the very start of the page when someone asked why on earth a Titan would even want to lock on to a cruiser… (and was called silly and ignorant for doing so).

What you describe is an issue with or without MWD — it's an effect of zero angular velocity, and no amount of sig bloom (or sig reduction) changes that effect. That's my entire point: that the whole MWD argument is a red herring from people who seemingly don't understand what affects tracking.


Sorry I'm covering two birds with one stone. The targeting to hit won't matter, and the scan res nerd won't matter. One is affected by the MWD bloom (the Scan Res nerf) and one is affected by the tracking change (50% reduction). Sadly, they are still irrelevant to the respective issues on the battlefield.

Democracy is only as good as the despot managing the voting booth.
EnderCapitalG
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1618 - 2012-03-14 16:18:44 UTC
Guys my ship costs a lot and I have more SP than you so I should win!
Slapnuts McGee
Draconis Holding Corporation
#1619 - 2012-03-14 16:24:21 UTC
Sentinel Eeex wrote:

"Cmon CCP, we only want to be able to blap frigates with Titans for a wee bit longer... pretty please?"


hey nerd, read my earlier post where I said go ahead and nerf tracking 50% or whatever where we won't hit frigates.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1620 - 2012-03-14 16:24:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Styrling wrote:
3x Meta 13 Tracking Comps
3x Meta 13 Tracking Enhancers
2x Meta 13 Sensor Boosters - Lock time gonna blow :frogcawg:
Strong Drop and an ax-2.5 or Ogdin's

With all this the Titan still has ~16m EHP

Tracking is around 0.0133 compared to around 0.015 for a normal 1400 Mael.
…divided by 2.5 due to the signature resolution, so around 0.0053 compared to around 0.015.