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Incoming titan adjustments

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John Maynard Keynes
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1381 - 2012-03-14 11:43:14 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Krutoj wrote:
Lets summirise this patch with nerfing of the biggest End game item, most expenssive and now most useless. Well done at rolling this game back by 7 years.
I will address some of the things that Greyscale thinks are true or were "discussed"

Quote:
We have talked to the CSM about this, and we're comfortable going forward with these changes in light of that discussion. I'm not going to put words in their mouths, though.


While this is true and we did discuss this, the major consensus was that nerfing titans is just trying to use a quick fix on a problem that is larger than a titan. Its the problem of 0.0 warfare, ship balance and how the end game currently built around those. Fixing titans as opposed to trying to come up with a better sov mechanics and better ship balance (between tech3 ships and titans), seemed to CCP like an easier way out that would buy them some more affection from the majority of players who cant comprehend this.


Quote:

XL turret tracking halved, siege module tracking penalty removed
Titans reduced to 3 maximum locked targets, and base scan resolution reduced to 5


So now titans cant lock fast enough or track. Whats the point of locking anything at all other than structures and supercaps if it cant be tracked in the first place? Why nerf scan resolution, which together with cloak is non existent? I will tell you why, because CCP thinks that if some wanker managed to buy the most rarest fucken items in the game and killed with that titan 10 people, its a cause for concern for entire player base. That said, taking a look at statistics, were a titan normaly an alliance asset, not many can afford to outfit their titan like a christmas tree of officer modules and yet, this became the major factor for this nerf. Funny that, tech 3 officer/deadspace ships (yes with deadspace/officer 100mn afterburners) dont get treated as such and yet there are more of them and they pose more balancing issues.

Btw mr "our assumption"Greyscale, assumptions are the mother of all fukups. I hope you will remember this saying next time you draft a patch.


We had a three-page discussion over the course of a week and you didn't post in it once. It's hard to have a discussion with people who don't participate.


Dear Greyscale,

you do remember how we told you that your surgical adjustments to anomalies will kill 0.0 and you didn't listen so that you had to apologize afterwards? Please don't do this again. Yes supercaps need a proper role and balancing but making them useless simply because you don't have the ressources to do it properly is not the solution. Do at least the following:
Frigs < Cruisers < BC < BS < capitals < supercapitals
Cruisers can easily kill frigs --> BC can easily kill cruisers < BS can easily kill BCs (and here is the problem) capitals are almost useless against BS < Supercapitals can easily kill capitals.

Make Dreads good against BS and don't nerf the sensor strength of titans.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1382 - 2012-03-14 11:43:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Kazanir wrote:
There must be some misunderstanding here. If I understand the math correctly, doubling the signature radius of a gun would have exactly the same effect as halving the gun's tracking, since the two factors end up being multiplied together anyway. This combined factor (of the tracking-to-angular-velocity ratio and the gun-sig-to-ship-sig) gets entered into the chance-to-hit equation which determines both how often you hit, and (indirectly) the damage multiplier which affects your bullet.

Yes, but it can only affect the damage to a very limited extent.

The damage multiplier you can get from any given hit is strictly limited to a rather narrow band: from 50% damage (the worst possible hit, available at the smallest possible hit chance), to 150% damage (the best possible hit, available at the best possible hit chance)… well, next best aside from the 300% multiplier you get from a critical hit.

This means that, no matter what, a weapon that delivers 40k raw damage will never do less than 20k damage — the only way to do less is to not hit at all. Changing the hit chance by fiddling with the tracking factors doesn't change how much damage a weapon delivers as an absolute minimum. It just changes what range of damage multipliers are available to you out of the range ×0.5 – ×1.5.
Artyom Hunter
Militaris Industries
Northern Coalition.
#1383 - 2012-03-14 11:43:59 UTC
Dovinian wrote:
This is a very good change. And I have an Erebus.

Now that I'm more awake, I'm going to elaborate on this a bit.

While I would have liked to see CCP spend more time into an intelligent fix/solid counter this is going to have to do for now.

Yes, Titans are very expensive. This does not mean that they should be an instant win button and a hard counter to every fleet except Armor Hacs.

I also think that Titans are too easy to acquire. Mineral compression is a joke (I do a lot of it) and getting 65 freighter loads of minerals into 12 jump freighter trips (the necessary numbers to build a titan) with 100% lossless compression is broken.

Give Titans a new role, make them harder to build (fix/adjust mineral compression) and I'll be a happy boy.


I like this guy, he is a Titan pilot and doesn't say "Derp I've played this game for x years and am in x alliance, therefore I am entitled by international space law or something to dominate the game with my 12km imaginary e-peen. I can't possibly live if I don't have an instant win button against everything" +1 to you sir.

Good show.

Jolly Good show...
Acwron
Meet The Fockers
#1384 - 2012-03-14 11:45:18 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
BioZvin wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:

Actually, Greyscale went to Cambridge, and while we haven't IQ tested him yet, I'm pretty sure he'd score high Bear


I am sorry in advance here, but could we get some indication from CCP that we are being heard here. Put a lot of time into this game and really would ratter not be forced to leave because I feel like CCP only listens to Goons. I know they say we are less people then they are, but they don't number 345000 like they would have us believe.


We're absolutely listening.

Titans are an anti-cap/supercap ship and we need to limit their ability to kill subcaps. That's a change that's happening and is unlikely to change. The practical details on how that happens we'd love as much feedback on as possible. We've been talking about the lock timers this morning based on feedback from the playerbase, looking at what adjustments we can possibly make. The changes in the OP are still subject to change if we get feedback on how to achieve our goal better.


Since when a Titan is limited to shoot only capital ships and structures? It's a Titan, has advanced technology, it's 100 bill isk, that's why blasts everything ! If I wanna hit capital ships and structures I'll get a freaking dread, a bit cheaper, don't you think?

Titan is the mother of all ships, it's big as well ( my Avatar fits perfectly in the CSMA, no space left at all) It's big ! It's OP ! That's the way it should be ! That's why I spent lot of time to train for it, that's why I did grind the isk. Not for you to come and scratch everything cos you want it so. Or mittani wants so.

Now really, fit a titan for tank and tell me what you can hit. I forgot to fit tracking and damage mods once and shooted. I barely scratched a single target out of 6...In several rounds of fire. Get serious, Titans can hit only capital ships tank fitted. Go on SiSi, check for yourself...Did you ever try?

If you really change it, reimburse us for all the time and effort. ISK and SP.
Cyaron wars
Academia RED HOT Corporation
#1385 - 2012-03-14 11:47:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyaron wars
There's something CCP should nuderstand. Titans are only tactical advantage against massive subcapital blob. Removing will leave no choice but to blob more. So there will be game of blobs and not skills and isk fielded. Would be reasonable to replace this solution with dread buff. make capitals as counter to subcaps and supers to counter capitals. CCP has this on paper but it dosn't work in game. this is the biggest issue here.

In any other case you are making a blob of battleships only weapon in large scale fight. I find this stupid since humanity always tried to have some Tactical advantage on battlefield rather fielding numbers.
CynoNet Two
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#1386 - 2012-03-14 11:50:01 UTC
Cyaron wars wrote:
There's something CCP should nuderstand. Titans are only tactical advantage against massive subcapital blob. Removing will leave no choice but to blob more. So there will be game of blobs and not skills and isk fielded. Would be reasonable to replace this solution with dread buff. make capitals as counter to subcaps and supers to counter capitals. CCP has this on paper but it dosn't work in game. this is the biggest issue here.

In any other case you are making a blob of battleships only weapon in large scale fight. I find this stupid since humanity always tried to have some Tactical advantage on battlefield rather fielding numbers.


you missed this:

GeneralDisturbed wrote:
It's funny to see that pretty much the only people in this topic who complain about numbers counting for something are the people who stand to lose the ability to just instantly win a fight with titans. The same people who consistently manage to match our numbers when we fight them, and then drop titans when we start to win the fight based on strategy. They're not mad because they're being blobbed, or at risk to being blobbed, -they're not-. They're mad because their ability to instantly win a strategic battle with no effort is being taken away from them. Now they -will- have to be elite pvp.

I've seen time and time again that numbers are only a small part of what matters in a fight. Especially now with things like Time Dilation and the lack of lag. In the old eve, jumping a large fleet into a larger fleet was suicide, or a roll of the dice on who loaded first. And most of the fight was just hoping your guns would fire once in 15 minutes, before the node crashed. Now every action is accepted, everyone loads, everyone has a fair shot.

People ***** about drakes, but goons have tons of fleet doctrines, and I've seen 2 or 3 separate doctrines used in the same fight. Bombers, drakes, sniper t3's, sniper hurricanes, autocannons neuting canes, maelstroms, armor hacs, sniper hacs. All of these supposed cookie-cutter FOTM doctrines require coordination and a ton of support to survive. Dictors in the right place dropping bubbles at the right time, and knowing how to survive. Logistics knowing how to keep themselves alive and in position to rep. Interceptors and fast ships screening tackle and getting warpins. FC's that know how to probe, how to fight, when to run. When to bounce the fleet. Bombers knowing when to strike, who to strike, recons running scrams and webs on the people who need to be hit by... etc

The point of all this is, all these fleets require coordination and precision to win, and ALL OF THEM HAVE A CHANCE. You drop 300 ships on 200 ships, both sides can still win. You drop 50 titans on 300 ships, 400 ships, 500 ships, 800 ships... the titans just won. Hands down, no contest. No subcap fleet can stand on the field, and do the damage required to break reps, when they're losing a ship every single time the titans guns cycle. This is not the way eve is meant to be played, CCP has been nerfing titans since they came out, because they DO NOT FIT WITH EVE and never have. Every ship matters in eve, in every fleet, regardless of size. Until you bring titans in, and then the only ship that matters onfield is how many titans you have. That's not eve, and it's never going to be eve. So they're getting nerfed again, and will get nerfed more... get over it.
Freelancer83
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1387 - 2012-03-14 11:55:40 UTC
Cyaron wars wrote:
There's something CCP should nuderstand. Titans are only tactical advantage against massive subcapital blob. Removing will leave no choice but to blob more. So there will be game of blobs and not skills and isk fielded. Would be reasonable to replace this solution with dread buff. make capitals as counter to subcaps and supers to counter capitals. CCP has this on paper but it dosn't work in game. this is the biggest issue here.


Agree Buff Dreads a bit so they are a viable option vs Subcaps so we can see some Dread/carrier fleets, which then gives the Super/Titans something to shoot at.

Smaller alliances needs to have higher risk options available to them for when they are outnumbered heavily.
BrokenBC
no tax's are us
#1388 - 2012-03-14 11:55:42 UTC
I find it funny that the folks crying about the "BLOB" have matched or exceeded the CFC numbers over and over.The real problem is you put all your eggs in one basket.OOP's.

As for the nerf it's self, it's not going to be enough. PL are already bragging that a blaster fit erebus will still track better than a maelstrom.So they will continue to use them to happily blap subcaps.Leave the sensor strength as it is, and remove their ability to lock any sub cap at all and be done with it.
Rick
Van Diemen's Demise
Northern Coalition.
#1389 - 2012-03-14 11:58:57 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Adding a "minimum sig radius" attribute to turrets, below which damage would fall off regardless of tracking

Too big a change and more technical work than we actually needed to solve the problem.


All turrets already have sig resolution attribute. This is already used in the damage calculation, you just need to double it for XL weapons.


This doesn't scale the damage, it scales the hit chance. Part of the problem we're having is that titans aren't hitting subcaps all that often, but when they do hit they do full anti-capital damage and frequently one-hit things as a result.


I always thought when u effectively hit a ship, with a bullet the size of said ship it would instantly destroy it? no?
Kazanir
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1390 - 2012-03-14 12:02:04 UTC
Rick wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Adding a "minimum sig radius" attribute to turrets, below which damage would fall off regardless of tracking

Too big a change and more technical work than we actually needed to solve the problem.


All turrets already have sig resolution attribute. This is already used in the damage calculation, you just need to double it for XL weapons.


This doesn't scale the damage, it scales the hit chance. Part of the problem we're having is that titans aren't hitting subcaps all that often, but when they do hit they do full anti-capital damage and frequently one-hit things as a result.


I always thought when u effectively hit a ship, with a bullet the size of said ship it would instantly destroy it? no?


Yeah, and this hasn't changed really because a tracking nerf doesn't directly affect it. Even with a 10% hit chance, when that titan DOES hit, it is hitting for between 50% and 60% of its "full" damage...which is a lot. Apparently Greyscale wants to change that, but it is going to require more fundamental changes to the bullet damage equation and the tracking nerf doesn't accomplish that, at least not directly.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1391 - 2012-03-14 12:03:02 UTC
John Maynard Keynes wrote:
Dear Greyscale,

you do remember how we told you that your surgical adjustments to anomalies will kill 0.0 and you didn't listen so that you had to apologize afterwards? Please don't do this again. Yes supercaps need a proper role and balancing but making them useless simply because you don't have the ressources to do it properly is not the solution. Do at least the following:
Frigs < Cruisers < BC < BS < capitals < supercapitals
Cruisers can easily kill frigs --> BC can easily kill cruisers < BS can easily kill BCs (and here is the problem) capitals are almost useless against BS < Supercapitals can easily kill capitals.

Make Dreads good against BS and don't nerf the sensor strength of titans.



Dreadnaughts are primarily anti-structure tools, with anti-capital as a secondary role. The capital ships you're looking for to deal with battleships are carriers.
Kusanagi Kasuga
Indigo Archive
Ivy League Alt Alliance
#1392 - 2012-03-14 12:05:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Kusanagi Kasuga
Krutoj wrote:
Whinewhinewhinewhinewhine...
I will tell you why, because CCP thinks that if some wanker managed to buy the most rarest fucken items in the game and killed with that titan 10 people, its a cause for concern for entire player base.


So, what you're saying is that Black Ops battle ships (significantly rarer than titans) need a proper buff, so they can kill everything, including titans?
I'm down with that. Who's with me?

Also, EA Ships (also rarer than titans) should probably be in receipt of a similar buff, but let's not be boring and just give them massive DPS, huge tanks and an epeen big enough to dock a battleship in. Let's give them a grid-wide EWar effect, possibly for the sake of interest, one that only affects caps and supercaps.
Sounds pretty interesting to me.
Dan Massell
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1393 - 2012-03-14 12:07:18 UTC
Kusanagi Kasuga wrote:

So, what you're saying is that Black Ops battle ships (significantly rarer than titans) need a proper buff, so they can kill everything, including titans?


you don't get out of jita much do you
Crystal Wolf
Invision Hosting
#1394 - 2012-03-14 12:10:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Crystal Wolf
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Crystal Wolf wrote:
I think the opportunity to even post intelligent stuff in this thread is gone but here goes

With regards to the nerf i agree with the tracking nerf something did need to be done there even if it was just a temporary measure. However the targeting nerf is ridiculou

As a person who has been on both sides of a titan fight i can understand why people are whining however this nerf appears to be incredibly short sighte

CCP have thought about how to balance titans to what they believe is an acceptable level but they have failed to take into account how this affects the game as a whole. Titans do need a clearly defined role however CCP have just nuked titans because they claim they don't have the resources to do an overhaul so they slapped something together and just put it in a forum pos

Titans will loose their place as an endgame piece of equipment because dreads will be just as effective and cheaper to field what alliance is going to waste time expanding their titan fleet when all they become is a massive jump bridge with a D

For those who say titan pilots are complaining too much you have to understand that titans don't just grow on trees for some people. For those who aren't in larger alliances or those who don't have tech money it actually does take time and effort to build a tita

From a political standpoint CCP are effectively changing the balance of power towards alliances who can just field hundreds of subcaps. The alliances who rely on supers to augment their fleet strength have been forgotten and just pushed aside. This change definitely needs to go back to the drawing board and CCP need to take factors like this into account.


We would be totally happy with an outcome where people stop expanding their titan fleet. It shouldn't be coming as a huge surprise to anyone that, all other things being equal, we would prefer a situation where there were fewer titans in EVE

People who're augmenting their fleet strength with supers we're OK with, and they should continue to be OK after this change. We're not happy with situations where supercaps are making up the bulk of the fleet strength. If that's becoming less viable, then this is a desirable outcome for us.


Firstly its good to see responses from CCP on this matter as that should allay any concerns that people had that you might not be listening

Secondly the only issue i see generated by the nerf is the ill feelings it will create for titan pilots who didn't just have their titans "handed" to them and had to work hard for them investing several months into the game if not longer. But as Shadoo mentioned earlier it would be a good idea to grant titans the ability to to either dock or be GM docked otherwise what will happen is those accounts will just unsub when they could be used for better things until you have a definite timetable for the overhauling of titans

All up i admit titans are currently broken and the tracking nerf is needed just remove the targeting nerf and that should reduce a fair amount of the complaining

Also out of curiosity will these changes be available on SISI before deployment on Tranquility?

.
Titan Keeper 22
Doomheim
#1395 - 2012-03-14 12:11:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Titan Keeper 22
ok fine nerf the hell out of it but instead,

make it immune to everything(including capital logistics;titans how many times bigger than normal capital ships? it should repair itself after each battle) but gun/misslie/drone damage that way with 5 scan res, max 3 targets and half tracking, it may inflict as little damage as you all wished but make them semi indestructible by making them immune to interdiction including focused hic bubble. then i'd say we have a deal.

to opposing people -

so usually how many titans are being built every months?
and how man titans get destroyed every months?

i really doubt making them immune to interdiction is going to make 'there are too many titans' problem any worse

and it wont be totally indestructible; if the titan uses DD, then it wont be able to jump out for 10min; there, give him some bumps bring your dreads/supers and you can kill it then. without any logistics support, i pretty much think the titan wont survive.

well, if the titan doesn't use its DD..consider it a worthless giant moving structure(well i guess a tad bit better than a faction battleship if used for killing siged dreads)

p.s. well the titan jumps out after tanking for 10min, let him be. he's out of battlefield and i dont think self repping the amount of dmg he took during DD immobile/no jump avail state before the battle is over is impossible and it should have capacity problems to do anything because it used its jumpdrive
Acwron
Meet The Fockers
#1396 - 2012-03-14 12:12:22 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
John Maynard Keynes wrote:
Dear Greyscale,

you do remember how we told you that your surgical adjustments to anomalies will kill 0.0 and you didn't listen so that you had to apologize afterwards? Please don't do this again. Yes supercaps need a proper role and balancing but making them useless simply because you don't have the ressources to do it properly is not the solution. Do at least the following:
Frigs < Cruisers < BC < BS < capitals < supercapitals
Cruisers can easily kill frigs --> BC can easily kill cruisers < BS can easily kill BCs (and here is the problem) capitals are almost useless against BS < Supercapitals can easily kill capitals.

Make Dreads good against BS and don't nerf the sensor strength of titans.



Dreadnaughts are primarily anti-structure tools, with anti-capital as a secondary role. The capital ships you're looking for to deal with battleships are carriers.


Wrong. I was looking for Titan. Cos I trained for it. And it's working good. Since when you tell us what we are looking for?
It's the other way around. We tell you what we're looking for.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1397 - 2012-03-14 12:13:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Dan Massell wrote:
Kusanagi Kasuga wrote:
So, what you're saying is that Black Ops battle ships (significantly rarer than titans) need a proper buff, so they can kill everything, including titans?
you don't get out of jita much do you
The fact remains: blops and ewar frigates are rarer ships than Titans and have been for years.

Acwron wrote:
Wrong. I was looking for Titan. Cos I trained for it. And it's working good. Since when you tell us what we are looking for?
Ever since they designed the ships and decided what roles they're intended for.

Just because you trained for a titan doesn't mean it will do everything you want it to do. By that logic, my Ishkur should instagib all of Jita in a single blast from my light neutrons. Unfortunately, that's not what the Ishkur is meant to do, so it can't.
Kusanagi Kasuga
Indigo Archive
Ivy League Alt Alliance
#1398 - 2012-03-14 12:18:11 UTC
Dan Massell wrote:
Kusanagi Kasuga wrote:

So, what you're saying is that Black Ops battle ships (significantly rarer than titans) need a proper buff, so they can kill everything, including titans?


you don't get out of jita much do you

You missed the memo, but the text you bolded isn't a disputed fact by anyone, perhaps not including you. But that only makes you misinformed and unintentionally hilarious.
CynoNet Two
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#1399 - 2012-03-14 12:18:51 UTC
Acwron wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Dreadnaughts are primarily anti-structure tools, with anti-capital as a secondary role. The capital ships you're looking for to deal with battleships are carriers.


Wrong. I was looking for Titan. Cos I trained for it. And it's working good. Since when you tell us what we are looking for?
It's the other way around. We tell you what we're looking for.

You're absolutely correct. We (the majority of the players) told CCP what we're looking for. And this is CCP implementing it. I'm sorry that you're very much in the minority here. You are the 0.2%.
Wishdokkta CEO
The Riot Formation
#1400 - 2012-03-14 12:23:03 UTC
GeneralDisturbed wrote:
It's funny to see that pretty much the only people in this topic who complain about numbers counting for something are the people who stand to lose the ability to just instantly win a fight with titans. The same people who consistently manage to match our numbers when we fight them, and then drop titans when we start to win the fight based on strategy. They're not mad because they're being blobbed, or at risk to being blobbed, -they're not-. They're mad because their ability to instantly win a strategic battle with no effort is being taken away from them. Now they -will- have to be elite pvp.

I've seen time and time again that numbers are only a small part of what matters in a fight. Especially now with things like Time Dilation and the lack of lag. In the old eve, jumping a large fleet into a larger fleet was suicide, or a roll of the dice on who loaded first. And most of the fight was just hoping your guns would fire once in 15 minutes, before the node crashed. Now every action is accepted, everyone loads, everyone has a fair shot.

People ***** about drakes, but goons have tons of fleet doctrines, and I've seen 2 or 3 separate doctrines used in the same fight. Bombers, drakes, sniper t3's, sniper hurricanes, autocannons neuting canes, maelstroms, armor hacs, sniper hacs. All of these supposed cookie-cutter FOTM doctrines require coordination and a ton of support to survive. Dictors in the right place dropping bubbles at the right time, and knowing how to survive. Logistics knowing how to keep themselves alive and in position to rep. Interceptors and fast ships screening tackle and getting warpins. FC's that know how to probe, how to fight, when to run. When to bounce the fleet. Bombers knowing when to strike, who to strike, recons running scrams and webs on the people who need to be hit by... etc

The point of all this is, all these fleets require coordination and precision to win, and ALL OF THEM HAVE A CHANCE. You drop 300 ships on 200 ships, both sides can still win. You drop 50 titans on 300 ships, 400 ships, 500 ships, 800 ships... the titans just won. Hands down, no contest. No subcap fleet can stand on the field, and do the damage required to break reps, when they're losing a ship every single time the titans guns cycle. This is not the way eve is meant to be played, CCP has been nerfing titans since they came out, because they DO NOT FIT WITH EVE and never have. Every ship matters in eve, in every fleet, regardless of size. Until you bring titans in, and then the only ship that matters onfield is how many titans you have. That's not eve, and it's never going to be eve. So they're getting nerfed again, and will get nerfed more... get over it.


This.