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There's a slow but constant haemorrhage of new players

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Ender Karazaki
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#121 - 2012-03-14 08:03:11 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Ender Karazaki wrote:
I'm a fairly new player and although I do not know much about the game yet, I can tell you that my first few days in eve has been bewildering, furstrating, confusing and sometimes enjoyable.

The skill training is not something I'm used to. Since I've played EQ1 it was level bar in that filled by killing rats and snakes and completing quests. The more you put in the more you progressed. I log onto eve and I see things are done over time, fair enough I think this is something that everyone in the game will have to go through. I ask for advise get 100 different answers.

Some suggested that I just buy some isk and train my implants up to lvl and not log in for a week! You can guess how that made me feel. It felt as if I was wasting my time in the game since no matter what i did in the game, a guy who just logs on to fix his training que and logs back out again could be ahead of me because he buys ISK to get the best implants. That made me feel like ****

Another thing is the contradictory advice you get in what to train and how best to move farward in the game and the how the career paths diverge. For example, say I want to PVP but use mining and industry to fund it. That simply isn't realistic and these sort of restrictions furstrate me although I accept it's part of the consequences of my choices. However I hate the idea of being given the choice of choosing one path over another or

I would make one suggestion. Before the game starts I would have the game ask a player what their chosen career path would be. If they say Industry, put them in a n00b corp for industry. If the say PVP put them in a n00b corp for that so they can get into a corp that is relevant to their interest.


I liked your post, but noob corps aren't the answer. Blind leading the blind and all.

The best thing you could possibly do is get out of noob corps for good. Obviously I'm going to suggest combat PVE, to synergize with your goal of PVP combat.

But don't grind too much. Go out and have fun in cheaper, throwaway ships. Who knows, you might find a faction spawn out in low-sec. I did. On my third day subbed. In a frigate. I got a Halo Beta for my troubles, even though I didn't get any player kills that night!

The ISK sorts itself out in time.



Perhaps not a noob corp but a help channel that focuses solely on PvP run by these people who run the help channel.

By the way, I completely agree with Degren. There are too many PVE corp that recruit players that want to focus on the PvP side of the game and end up making them mine and stuff. I've been approached a few times by corps less than a month old who assume that if I join that I will suddenly give up on my PVP focus and start on industry. This happened to me at another game and it ruined it for me.
Valentyn3
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#122 - 2012-03-14 08:04:35 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:


I liked your post, but noob corps aren't the answer. Blind leading the blind and all.

The best thing you could possibly do is get out of noob corps for good. Obviously I'm going to suggest combat PVE, to synergize with your goal of PVP combat.

But don't grind too much. Go out and have fun in cheaper, throwaway ships. Who knows, you might find a faction spawn out in low-sec. I did. On my third day subbed. In a frigate. I got a Halo Beta for my troubles, even though I didn't get any player kills that night!

The ISK sorts itself out in time.


I would say instead of newbie corps, a system that gives you a list of registered player corps relevant to your career path and forces you to join one is a nice idea. It dumps you in the game with people who play how you want to and who actually want to help you because they benefit from it as well.

I don't always use hax. But when I do, it's because I'm an NPC.. http://i.imgur.com/PUZou.jpg
Tomiko Kawase
Perkone
#123 - 2012-03-14 08:07:15 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Tomiko Kawase wrote:
Coming from other mainstream titles, EVE was a breath of fresh air. I started playing in the midst of the Incarna rollout and if nothing else, the Jita riots sealed the deal for me. For a playerbase to show such emotion and effect change I knew I stumbled on something great.


You really should have seen the threadnaught on ghost training.

Now there was a hot topic!

It had everything...lies...manipulation...deceit...treachery...

...not to mention a lot of backpedaling and an extremely stoic CCP staff who utterly refused to comment.

CCP could outright lie to you and you'd still play the game.

Trust me, it happened to hundreds of thousands of us.


For me it was just the fact that a riot could actually happen. Content generated by players and not a themepark ride was something I couldn't even comprehend happening. CCP absolutely could have handled both situations better, but the world they've constructed is second to none.

Bombastic vintage soul with a driving groove, brass & male vocal
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#124 - 2012-03-14 08:08:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Valentyn3 wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:


I liked your post, but noob corps aren't the answer. Blind leading the blind and all.

The best thing you could possibly do is get out of noob corps for good. Obviously I'm going to suggest combat PVE, to synergize with your goal of PVP combat.

But don't grind too much. Go out and have fun in cheaper, throwaway ships. Who knows, you might find a faction spawn out in low-sec. I did. On my third day subbed. In a frigate. I got a Halo Beta for my troubles, even though I didn't get any player kills that night!

The ISK sorts itself out in time.


I would say instead of newbie corps, a system that gives you a list of registered player corps relevant to your career path and forces you to join one is a nice idea. It dumps you in the game with people who play how you want to and who actually want to help you because they benefit from it as well.


Sorry to have to disagree, but I think the emergent behavior they're expecting noobs to engage in is better played out if it happens organically. What you're proposing seems awfully heavy-handed.

Players do need to think for themselves. Choosing a corp is one of those things they'll eventually have to figure out.

It may not be easy, but I believe it's best for the game not to coddle the rookies any more than absolutely necessary.

Tomiko Kawase wrote:
For me it was just the fact that a riot could actually happen. Content generated by players and not a themepark ride was something I couldn't even comprehend happening. CCP absolutely could have handled both situations better, but the world they've constructed is second to none.


I can't help but agree. See what I mean?

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#125 - 2012-03-14 08:12:06 UTC
Ai Shun wrote:
Thorn Galen wrote:
There have been some very good responses in this thread and of course the expected "nothing is wrong", "show proof" and other non-contributing responses. Thanks for those, folks.


It seems to me all you wanted was somebody to say: "Yes, Thorn. I agree with you Thorn". Asking you for more information about player retention, when you make a fairly substantial claim, is not non-contribution. It comes from somebody who works with data, information and so forth for a living who is interested in the health of this game. If you don't have it, just say so. Then I know you're just full of **** and I can treat your post as opinion, instead of fact as you stated it.

Not that difficult, is it?


It's a pity you see it that way.
At the very least my opinion, as you put it, has generated a respectable thread with good information, which is all I was looking for.
There is no way I, or anyone else, can please all of the people all of the time.

COO - Bene Gesserit Chapterhouse  CEO - Sanctuary Pact Alliance
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#126 - 2012-03-14 08:12:52 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Darth Gustav wrote:


The high barrier to running Incursions and runaway inflation due to riskless "PVE" in high-sec would drive any new player away from the game. Think about it, running missions or frigate mining/hauling for paltry ISK sucks when the Incursion fleet you can't join is devaluing ISK faster than you can earn it. What possible incentive does a new player who doesn't hook up with a decent player corporation really have for staying subbed to Eve? Oh snap!


[/quote]


Bull I let ships w/o super shiney fits in fleet all the time you are wrong in thinking a high cost to get into incursions is a deterrent into Eve. You are part of the problem not the solution a hole
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#127 - 2012-03-14 08:15:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
DarthNefarius wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:


The high barrier to running Incursions and runaway inflation due to riskless "PVE" in high-sec would drive any new player away from the game. Think about it, running missions or frigate mining/hauling for paltry ISK sucks when the Incursion fleet you can't join is devaluing ISK faster than you can earn it. What possible incentive does a new player who doesn't hook up with a decent player corporation really have for staying subbed to Eve? Oh snap!



Bull I let ships w/o super shiney fits in fleet all the time you are wrong in thinking a high cost to get into incursions is a deterrent into Eve. You are part of the problem not the solution a hole


Meet my signature. Let me know how that goes for you.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Tomiko Kawase
Perkone
#128 - 2012-03-14 08:16:39 UTC
Valentyn3 wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:


I liked your post, but noob corps aren't the answer. Blind leading the blind and all.

The best thing you could possibly do is get out of noob corps for good. Obviously I'm going to suggest combat PVE, to synergize with your goal of PVP combat.

But don't grind too much. Go out and have fun in cheaper, throwaway ships. Who knows, you might find a faction spawn out in low-sec. I did. On my third day subbed. In a frigate. I got a Halo Beta for my troubles, even though I didn't get any player kills that night!

The ISK sorts itself out in time.


I would say instead of newbie corps, a system that gives you a list of registered player corps relevant to your career path and forces you to join one is a nice idea. It dumps you in the game with people who play how you want to and who actually want to help you because they benefit from it as well.


Forcing someone to do something shouldn't really be an option, at least not in that context. What needs to be reworked is the archaic UI for finding corps. For the first week I played EvE I wasn't really sure if the "corp" I was in was controlled by NPCs or not. By a stroke of luck I found Dreddit and was able to avoid the debacle of newbie corps.

Bombastic vintage soul with a driving groove, brass & male vocal
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#129 - 2012-03-14 08:21:28 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
lol I should know better then feed the troll Gustov bet what the hay I'll bait him...
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#130 - 2012-03-14 08:22:52 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Darth Gustav wrote:
[

Meet my signature. Let me know how that goes for you.
He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller.
-Darth Gustav's Axiom
.



yAWN SOO u ARE AN EXPERT HUH HOW? TELL ME TROLL?
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Valentyn3
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#131 - 2012-03-14 08:40:23 UTC
Tomiko Kawase wrote:
Valentyn3 wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:


I liked your post, but noob corps aren't the answer. Blind leading the blind and all.

The best thing you could possibly do is get out of noob corps for good. Obviously I'm going to suggest combat PVE, to synergize with your goal of PVP combat.

But don't grind too much. Go out and have fun in cheaper, throwaway ships. Who knows, you might find a faction spawn out in low-sec. I did. On my third day subbed. In a frigate. I got a Halo Beta for my troubles, even though I didn't get any player kills that night!

The ISK sorts itself out in time.


I would say instead of newbie corps, a system that gives you a list of registered player corps relevant to your career path and forces you to join one is a nice idea. It dumps you in the game with people who play how you want to and who actually want to help you because they benefit from it as well.


Forcing someone to do something shouldn't really be an option, at least not in that context. What needs to be reworked is the archaic UI for finding corps. For the first week I played EvE I wasn't really sure if the "corp" I was in was controlled by NPCs or not. By a stroke of luck I found Dreddit and was able to avoid the debacle of newbie corps.


Probably a better idea.

It was just a random thought I had. Maybe a section of the tutorial just for the corp system ect. As you said, it can be pretty complicated, like the rest of the game, for a new player.

I don't always use hax. But when I do, it's because I'm an NPC.. http://i.imgur.com/PUZou.jpg
Mr Katsumoto
ScrapYard Cerberus
Laika.
#132 - 2012-03-14 10:37:49 UTC
Guttripper wrote:


Thanks for reading.


Excellent read and I agree.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#133 - 2012-03-14 10:50:26 UTC
Pink Leaf wrote:
New player comes to eve. New player see's all of the things you can do, all of the careers you can take up. New player gets excited.

A few weeks down the line and new player realizes that apart from missions none of the other stuff is worth doing.
New player is told that things are better in low-sec. New player fly's to low-sec. New player gets blown up.

New player get's fed-up and bored. New player leaves eve.


This is total bullshit and direct result of new players being exposed to the negative influence of infininoobs polluting the starter NPC corps.

I flew to lowsec. I didn't do missions. I made my first billion after one month of playing.

I stayed.



.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#134 - 2012-03-14 14:17:10 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Cearain wrote:
What you said makes no sense in relation to my post.


Yes it does - you were effectively putting the question as "Hey new guy, would you like to play a game that forces you to do X and Y horrible terrible things?" You prime the pump with the question and get the answer you want to get from the new person.

Quote:

Eve doesn't require alt scouts or alt tackle. So I don't complain that it does.

The booster alts however are becoming required if you want to be competitive. You don't need to get upset just because you use them. I don't blame you - its a huge advantage. I'm training one myself. But certainly if I knew the game was going to force me down this path I probably would not have installed it.

Nevertheless ask new players what they think about starting into a game where you will be at a severe disadvantage if you do not dual box these alts. Ask it however you want you don't have to use my wording - if that is your issue.


While I do have booster alts, I don't actually use them. When I roll with a booster alt, I do it on my main and play the scouting roll (yes, really). I might be more inclined to use booster alts, but I found that running Eve on 1920x1080 with high graphics and getting acceptable Fraps footage just doesn't pan out.

But hey, don't let me stand in the way of your pathetic pity party where you complain that someone in your fleet might want to run bonuses. Roll

-Liang



I thought I saw a video of you in a talos with an extremely long point. Maybe it was faction or something like that. Or maybe that wasn't you. I don't know. So let me ask: were you in a talos getting the benefit of someones booster alt?

I am not calling for a pity party I am just observing some facts. The facts are off grid alt boosters give huge combat advantages to those who use them. Are you denying this?

Do you think that prevalance of them is increasing, decreasing, or staying the same?

I'm pretty sure I know the answers. But who knows maybe diagoras or past qens could give us some answers if you aren't convinced the game is going in this direction.

Again I am training one myself because they are just too large of an advantage not to use. But I know having to use that alt account will make eve more of a chore.


As far as your comments regarding the wording of questions regarding booster alts. How would you ask it? It doesn't matter how you ask the question. The above facts won't change. And these facts are likely to be a big turn off for new players and old players alike.

Making these sorts of short term cash gains is not good for the long term health of the game. I realize it may be necessary for ccp to do this now, but I hope they are planning on undoing this in the future once the financial issues pan out.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#135 - 2012-03-14 14:24:44 UTC
Ephemeron wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Eve doesn't require alt scouts or alt tackle

Actually, speaking from experience and good understanding of EVE game design, I'd argue that EVE does require an alt scout for 1 major reason: star gates

The only way to know what's on the other side of the gate is to jump and see, and jumping leaves you vulnerable to gate camp.
Map statistics aren't good enough. In pretty much everything else, it is possible to scout solo without putting your life on pure luck.

I suppose you could argue that a gate can be scouted solo in a cloaker ship, but that's basically doing the job of an alt scout by switching ships one 1 char.

If EVE was better designed, there would be a way to "peek" on the other side of the gate without gambling with your ship. But I suppose it's more profitable for CCP to require alt scouts



When I am solo I never used an alt scout, and I pvp solo probably at least 80% of the time. Again I may start using one but its not nearly as necessary as having the booster alts.

Low sec and faction war has been a decent way to get fights in eve without having to have an army of scouts. Yeah you may want to fly smaller stuff and you will lose an occassional ship to a gate camp but its not as necessary as the booster alts.

Without a booster alt when you finally do get a fight you will likely just die an embarrassing death.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Ai Shun
#136 - 2012-03-14 21:34:11 UTC
Thorn Galen wrote:
It's a pity you see it that way.
At the very least my opinion, as you put it, has generated a respectable thread with good information, which is all I was looking for.
There is no way I, or anyone else, can please all of the people all of the time.


Yes, it has generated an interesting discussion. In future please, when dealing with a topic for discussion that affects the health of the game; please state things in such a way it is clear it is an opinion. Because:

Thorn wrote:
You have the numbers, you know we're losing a small number of new players on a daily basis.
The number of players being lost to EvE outnumber the new players signing-up (who then also become ex-players).


that does not come across as opinion but as fact, hence my request for the actual data. Either way, thank you for clarifying that it was just an opinion and not an actual fact. It means I can now put the rest of the discussion in the proper perspective. Thank you.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#137 - 2012-03-14 22:14:28 UTC
Cearain wrote:

I thought I saw a video of you in a talos with an extremely long point. Maybe it was faction or something like that. Or maybe that wasn't you. I don't know. So let me ask: were you in a talos getting the benefit of someones booster alt?

I am not calling for a pity party I am just observing some facts. The facts are off grid alt boosters give huge combat advantages to those who use them. Are you denying this?


I like how it's gone from everyone personally must have a booster alt to someone in the fleet might desire a booster alt. And yes, that was me - or at least I have put out a number of videos with me in a Talos where some of the time I have had gang bonuses.

Quote:

Do you think that prevalance of them is increasing, decreasing, or staying the same?

I'm pretty sure I know the answers. But who knows maybe diagoras or past qens could give us some answers if you aren't convinced the game is going in this direction.

Again I am training one myself because they are just too large of an advantage not to use. But I know having to use that alt account will make eve more of a chore.


The prevalence is increasing, but you do not have to train one - and neither does the noob that you're saying shouldn't stick with the game because of it. Furthermore, I would argue that the density of booster alts will go down.

Quote:

As far as your comments regarding the wording of questions regarding booster alts. How would you ask it? It doesn't matter how you ask the question. The above facts won't change. And these facts are likely to be a big turn off for new players and old players alike.

Making these sorts of short term cash gains is not good for the long term health of the game. I realize it may be necessary for ccp to do this now, but I hope they are planning on undoing this in the future once the financial issues pan out.


You are priming the pump by asserting that the behavior in question is necessary and bad, regardless of the reality of that. It isn't necessary, and its extremely unlikely that Joe Q Noob would find himself training up a booster alt for the first few years (if he ever did).

Furthermore, more and more I find that I play on one account at a time instead of multiple accounts - and I've even been known to go on corp roams as the scout+gang booster on my main. Yet that flies directly in the face of what you claim is the inescapable truth.

So yeah, get on with your pity party. Roll

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#138 - 2012-03-14 22:15:38 UTC
Cearain wrote:

Without a booster alt when you finally do get a fight you will likely just die an embarrassing death.


I successfully solo PVP without a booster alt (or even gang bonuses) all the time.

Less QQ, more Pew Pew.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
gfldex
#139 - 2012-03-14 23:08:40 UTC
Archdaimon wrote:
I'm not saying it should be different and I have done it myself, but it is really tough for a new player wanting to play with your friends facing more experienced players than yourself who war dec's corporations in high sec for money or tears.


Indeed. There are plenty of new players that join crappy corps that can't deal with wardecs. And the crappy wardec system drives the noobs out, not the crappy CEO who should never have been allowed to start that crappy corp in the first place. Sadly, as long as players can hide behind alts there is no way to solve that problem.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.
gfldex
#140 - 2012-03-14 23:19:21 UTC
Henry Haphorn wrote:
Besides, according to Eve-Offline, the daily average of the number of players has seen a healthy increase since December of 2011.


Have a guess when the last ban hammer hit! Since bots are not banned on a regular basis we can't really say anything about account growth or inflation. No reason not to troll Soundwave ofc. :)

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.