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Incoming titan adjustments

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Killerhound
State War Academy
Caldari State
#381 - 2012-03-13 17:51:29 UTC
Sentinel Eeex wrote:

Tell me, how would you kill 25 titans?


I would like at this point again to deliver some mathematical basis for any discussion. With current DPS and fast projection of force you can easily imagine around 100-150 dreads deploy to gank your 25 Titans.

150 Dreads cost around 400 Mio each or 60b in total due to insurance, easy production, low-sec construction etc etc ...

25 Titans cost around well 1250 B isk taking the current price of 50b at which some believe they will stop and a large amount of chars bound to the ships, extensive complicated production etc etc ...

Even if in a hypothetical fight 150 dreads all 25 DD where pointed at different targets, you would simply lose around 10b of isk with the shots from the dd's which is actually not such a big deal.

What matters in such a scenario is the fact that with your dreads you only need to take down 2 Titans and you are on the plus side of the equation. Every Titan blowing is additonally a moral factor, bringing more people to the fight.

By changing XL Turrets it becomes hard to hit even a dread, thats not such a big deal since they are in siege. But on the other side hitting a Titan becomes much easier since there is no more Malus from Siege module.

The scan resolution change adds additional help for the dread in that scenario. While the titans will need around 106 Seconds to lock up the dreads, they on the other side can already fire from 30 secs on. Thats about 70 Secs fire without defence on the titan side.
Elena Melkan
Magellanic Itg
Goonswarm Federation
#382 - 2012-03-13 17:52:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Elena Melkan
Like in everything, best tactics and biggest numbers ensure the victory. It should be that way in EVE too. In my eyes, Titans should play the support role - they should give a significant help, but should not be EVERYTHING.

So it should be Quality > Quantity? Yeah, it's so stupidly easy to get many players to work together effectively and maintain the numbers of active PvP'ers in a coalition - and hold all that stuff together, keep everyone satisfied and their morale up. It's so much easier than go passively grind some skills on an alt and get some ISK from botting or whatsoever and guarantee an epic win.

Quit whining, work on your diplo and get more people in your fleets if you are so afraid.
Travis Wells
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#383 - 2012-03-13 17:52:17 UTC
Andski wrote:
Hulemand wrote:
This is indeed an interesting change to the game, good luck with keeping your job once the amount of accounts drop because of boredom and what follows when you allow for one big power block to control all of EVE.


i love it when the sad lil raiden pubbies say that



me too Big smile
Jonathan Jax
Frak Around and Find Out
#384 - 2012-03-13 17:52:55 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Dreads are mainly antistructure, with a bit of anti-cap. Carriers still do pretty decent damage against subcaps AFAIK. Supers can switch between anti-cap and anti-subcap depending on their choice of fighter drone. Titans are pure anti-cap.

With regard to the cost and effort of getting into a super, the general design intent of EVE is that you get diminishing returns for progressively higher investments. If you look at module progression, from T1 up to high officer, you'll see that how it generally pans out is that you get a roughly linear increase in power for a roughly exponential increase in cost. Similarly with ships, a T1 cruiser is not equivalent to ten T1 frigates, and a T1 battleship is not equivalent to twenty T1 cruisers. This makes stepping into a larger more powerful ship an interesting cost-benefit decision rather than an obvious no-brainer. Supercaps should continue this trend.



Quoted For Truth Cool

/clap CCP

Message to the whiners: HTFU
John Maynard Keynes
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#385 - 2012-03-13 17:53:17 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
John Maynard Keynes wrote:
Ra Death wrote:
I'm almost at a loss of words here. Almost, therefore I am going to speak my mind.

So now capitals are basically structure grinding machines and you only deploy them if you have something to grind down or if someone else is grinding stuff down and you catch someone else grinding down something. This is not a solution, this is a plaster for a symptom. There is now ZERO reason to deploy supercapitals except to grind down a structure. Do you really want structure grinding to become the motivator for people to build and create supercapitals in EVE? I mean, I don't believe you have thought at all about the consequences of these changes.

EVE is now effectively sectioned off into two tier combat systems. Capital combat and sub-capital combat. The difference is, capitals cannot touch sub-capitals, but sub-capitals can, in the numbers that are brought at the moment, almost 1-3 volley capitals. The titans were a workaround for that because numbers were no longer the only deciding factor, your playing time, your assets and your skillpoints actually played a role. Now we are going back to a time again where the only effective tool, a VERY limited tool might I add, against blobbing is a damn stealth bomber. No more force projection by taking advantage of the many years you have spent in the game and the money you have pooled into a titan, you are better off selling off said titan and joining the nearest Maelstrom fleet.

What am I meant to aspire for in EVE in terms of combat? What is my incentive for actually training all these skills. To fly the next flavour of the month subcapital ship?

EVE is now a numbers game when there is a large effort to remove counters for large fleets. If this is the direction we're going, we're going to see a bipolar political landscape because being a small alliance, you can now only exist if you are a part of the inevitable two powerblocks that will come to dominate EVE. If you can't match the numbers, too bad... join or die.

Let's get a rethink of the roles of supercapitals and not a temporary plaster that will reduce supercapitals to nothing but ihub and station grinders.

THIS! THIS! THIS!

Could Greyscale comment this post please?


Dreads are mainly antistructure, with a bit of anti-cap. Carriers still do pretty decent damage against subcaps AFAIK. Supers can switch between anti-cap and anti-subcap depending on their choice of fighter drone. Titans are pure anti-cap.

With regard to the cost and effort of getting into a super, the general design intent of EVE is that you get diminishing returns for progressively higher investments. If you look at module progression, from T1 up to high officer, you'll see that how it generally pans out is that you get a roughly linear increase in power for a roughly exponential increase in cost. Similarly with ships, a T1 cruiser is not equivalent to ten T1 frigates, and a T1 battleship is not equivalent to twenty T1 cruisers. This makes stepping into a larger more powerful ship an interesting cost-benefit decision rather than an obvious no-brainer. Supercaps should continue this trend.


But you do realize that capitals (carriers and dreads) are completely useless against subcaps and don't need a counter? Obviously, making supercaps a dedicated anti capital weapon makes them simply useless.

There is also another question CCP should think about:
Should Eve be all about spamming drakes or should the entitiy with the better and forwardthinking strategy be rewarded?
Yasuhiro Shoe
Perkone
Caldari State
#386 - 2012-03-13 17:53:49 UTC
I am astounded by the voice of reason belonging to CCP so very often.
The future of Eve looks ever brighter. Cheers!

Also, I expected tears and tinfoil in this thread. I was not disappointed.
Sevani
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#387 - 2012-03-13 17:55:49 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Supers can switch between anti-cap and anti-subcap depending on their choice of fighter drone. .


Lies.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#388 - 2012-03-13 17:56:04 UTC
here's a fun fact:

even with this nerf, we'll still use our supercaps to support hundreds of real players while you play other games and moan about how EVE is so bad now that you can't blap lol goonies with your one perfectly balanced titans

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
JEFFTHECHEF
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#389 - 2012-03-13 17:56:59 UTC
Kari Trace wrote:
Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you.
If you don't agree with constant play balancing you're bad for the game.
If your crying over your Titans inability to blap everything with your guns: welcome back to the game.


good post goonpet/pvp officer

lol
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#390 - 2012-03-13 17:57:06 UTC
John Maynard Keynes wrote:
There is also another question CCP should think about:
Should Eve be all about spamming drakes or should the entitiy with the better and forwardthinking strategy be rewarded?


the better strategy is clearly "get me a cyno, everyone jump, configure configure configure, sort by transversal and lock everything in sight"

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Vile rat
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#391 - 2012-03-13 17:57:40 UTC
John Maynard Keynes wrote:
[

There is also another question CCP should think about:
Should Eve be all about spamming drakes or should the entitiy with the better and forwardthinking strategy be rewarded?



I like this question. This is a good question and hopefully it will become the basis for a complete redesign of fleet combat. This absolutely needs to happen but it shouldn't be confused with how broken titans are.
Kari Trace
#392 - 2012-03-13 17:58:58 UTC
Lapine Davion wrote:
Honestly, this probably had nothing to do with goons and everything to do with PL hotdropping titans on the CCP subcap fleet.


Would CCP Greyscale confirm or deny this plz?

I like making things explode.

Kari Trace
Liana Carvian
Regius Tutela
#393 - 2012-03-13 17:59:07 UTC
Everyone brings forward the how do you beat X Titans argument, or X supers.

I think honestly a better question is how do you actually functionally beat the pure alpha doctrine which is currently the state of much of EvE large scale combat. How there are sub capitals ( drake cough cough ) which fill a much wider role than a single ship should.

There are complaints about Titans which is understandable they have reached a point in EvE which CCP didn't have the ability to plan for which honestly is kind of stupid considering they want this game to last how long?

Now how about instead of constantly swinging the nerf bat vs supers you use those "creative people" who work for you and actually Develop a counter. A HIC type ECM platform which can affect supers. The anti super dictor.

You have this story of a war going on in your game, and your method to fix it is to swing the nerf bat not actually invent something which has the ability to create real change in the game. How sick would it be to hear the comms of a Titan fleet which is having the specific ships to counter it fielded.

Stop swinging the nerf bat over and over again, and do what actually happens in the real world. **** is unbalanced until someone comes up with something which counters it. Now since you CCP have the ability to GIVE your players the tools to fix the issue, why don't you? Why resort to the simple swing of supers are too good over and over again.

How about as a creative development company you use all those resources in coming up with a creative way to bring supers down instead of just nerfing them until they become log offed prisons for unsubbed accounts.
Acwron
Meet The Fockers
#394 - 2012-03-13 18:00:11 UTC
Guys,

It's easy to solve this problem : Open a new server for goons. Goonity. Stupidity. The name is up to ze mittani. Will be his server after all.
Indeterminacy
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#395 - 2012-03-13 18:00:56 UTC
Curious, all these CFC duders being so smug about the titan nerf. Tell me about JTAU guys?
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#396 - 2012-03-13 18:01:20 UTC
Acwron wrote:
Guys,

It's easy to solve this problem : Open a new server for goons. Goonity. Stupidity. The name is up to ze mittani. Will be his server after all.


you no longer have any supercaps to worry about, though

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
mkd0815
no members required
#397 - 2012-03-13 18:02:01 UTC
worst fix ever.
Darth Tickles
Doomheim
#398 - 2012-03-13 18:02:54 UTC
Hulemand wrote:
good luck with keeping your job once the amount of accounts drop because of boredom and what follows when you allow for one big power block to control all of EVE


Ya, Supercaps Online has really been tearing it up subscription-wise. Idiot.

The result will be a more accessible, dynamic, and fluid nullsec populated and controlled by people who actually use space and log in more than once every two weeks to blap 500 subcaps and log back off.
Sentinel Eeex
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#399 - 2012-03-13 18:03:01 UTC
Killerhound wrote:
Sentinel Eeex wrote:

Tell me, how would you kill 25 titans?


I would like at this point again to deliver some mathematical basis for any discussion. With current DPS and fast projection of force you can easily imagine around 100-150 dreads deploy to gank your 25 Titans.

150 Dreads cost around 400 Mio each or 60b in total due to insurance, easy production, low-sec construction etc etc ...

25 Titans cost around well 1250 B isk taking the current price of 50b at which some believe they will stop and a large amount of chars bound to the ships, extensive complicated production etc etc ...

Even if in a hypothetical fight 150 dreads all 25 DD where pointed at different targets, you would simply lose around 10b of isk with the shots from the dd's which is actually not such a big deal.

What matters in such a scenario is the fact that with your dreads you only need to take down 2 Titans and you are on the plus side of the equation. Every Titan blowing is additonally a moral factor, bringing more people to the fight.

By changing XL Turrets it becomes hard to hit even a dread, thats not such a big deal since they are in siege. But on the other side hitting a Titan becomes much easier since there is no more Malus from Siege module.

The scan resolution change adds additional help for the dread in that scenario. While the titans will need around 106 Seconds to lock up the dreads, they on the other side can already fire from 30 secs on. Thats about 70 Secs fire without defence on the titan side.



Assuming an average dread skill training takes a year, and titan skill training takes 2 years (**** knows what real numbers are, I don't really care), one needs to drop 150 years of skill training to potentially kill 50 years of skill training.

Why is ****** ISK worth more than peoples' skill training time?
Johan Krieger
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#400 - 2012-03-13 18:03:24 UTC
Acwron wrote:
Guys,

It's easy to solve this problem : Open a new server for goons. Goonity. Stupidity. The name is up to ze mittani. Will be his server after all.


But TQ is already his server and we like it here.