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Incoming titan adjustments

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Ikoma Sunblazer
Einherjar Rising
#81 - 2012-03-13 12:43:03 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
The scan res number is balanced around multiple Cormack's sensor boosters, on the assumption that money is not a limiting factor for titan pilots, and therefore that people will shell out for officer SBs if that lets them continue do this kind of thing.



All things aside, this is a pretty hilarious assumption that doesn't make sense in context. With a base sensor strength of 5, you are talking about a few seconds difference between t2 and cormack out of a probable minute+ lock time.

Well worth the 4b+ sensor booster imo Lol
Ra Death
Samsara Exploration and Trade
#82 - 2012-03-13 12:44:00 UTC
I'm almost at a loss of words here. Almost, therefore I am going to speak my mind.

So now capitals are basically structure grinding machines and you only deploy them if you have something to grind down or if someone else is grinding stuff down and you catch someone else grinding down something. This is not a solution, this is a plaster for a symptom. There is now ZERO reason to deploy supercapitals except to grind down a structure. Do you really want structure grinding to become the motivator for people to build and create supercapitals in EVE? I mean, I don't believe you have thought at all about the consequences of these changes.

EVE is now effectively sectioned off into two tier combat systems. Capital combat and sub-capital combat. The difference is, capitals cannot touch sub-capitals, but sub-capitals can, in the numbers that are brought at the moment, almost 1-3 volley capitals. The titans were a workaround for that because numbers were no longer the only deciding factor, your playing time, your assets and your skillpoints actually played a role. Now we are going back to a time again where the only effective tool, a VERY limited tool might I add, against blobbing is a damn stealth bomber. No more force projection by taking advantage of the many years you have spent in the game and the money you have pooled into a titan, you are better off selling off said titan and joining the nearest Maelstrom fleet.

What am I meant to aspire for in EVE in terms of combat? What is my incentive for actually training all these skills. To fly the next flavour of the month subcapital ship?

EVE is now a numbers game when there is a large effort to remove counters for large fleets. If this is the direction we're going, we're going to see a bipolar political landscape because being a small alliance, you can now only exist if you are a part of the inevitable two powerblocks that will come to dominate EVE. If you can't match the numbers, too bad... join or die.

Let's get a rethink of the roles of supercapitals and not a temporary plaster that will reduce supercapitals to nothing but ihub and station grinders.
Sethur Blackcoat
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#83 - 2012-03-13 12:44:28 UTC
Gertrud ToD wrote:
limiting the amount of targets titans can lock, raising the locking time... there is only one counter that supercap heavy alliances can do to that: bring more titans.

the tracking nerf can easy be countered by having more RR (super) carriers arround to deal with the smaller stuff, while the set of a titan blob will stop hostiles from fielding capitals all together.

maybe i just don't get the plan behind this

confirming that the only solution to nerfed supercaps is bringing more supercaps

i mean supercaps are the max level ships if everyone in your gang is flying them you should be able to win every fight

after all we're not scrubs who can only fly subcaps, ugh, plebians disgust me
SuperBeastie
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#84 - 2012-03-13 12:44:30 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:


The scan res number is balanced around multiple Cormack's sensor boosters



if we are going to balance ships that way now can we do it with all ships because as long as there are people with tons of isk ships will get fit crazy. THIS IS THE MOST HALF ASSED THING CCP HAS EVER CAME UP WITH. I'm saying this know full well that it will give test and goons the upper hand over all entity's smaller than us.

[center]SuperBeastie's Third Party Service My in-game Channel is Supers Third Party[/center]
Gertrud ToD
Terrorists of Dimensions
#85 - 2012-03-13 12:45:00 UTC
Andski wrote:
Gertrud ToD wrote:
limiting the amount of targets titans can lock, raising the locking time... there is only one counter that supercap heavy alliances can do to that: bring more titans.

the tracking nerf can easy be countered by having more RR (super) carriers arround to deal with the smaller stuff, while the set of a titan blob will stop hostiles from fielding capitals all together.

maybe i just don't get the plan behind this


So you're saying that titans might just need a support fleet? What a strange and alien concept in this EVE Online game~

usually supercaps are fielded with support, and if you guys would field some, you would know :p
Tetania
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#86 - 2012-03-13 12:45:27 UTC
Andski wrote:
Tetania wrote:
Grath is right.


the guy who unironically makes WW2 analogies and honestly believes that 200 dreads are easily sourced off the market is right

send us a postcard from Native Freshfood when you're there!


When we fought BoB dread fleets with BS we didn't source those off the market.

The way eve has always worked is that you can have a small number of people with big expensive toys vs a large number of people with cheaper toys or better logistics and win. Goons have historically done the latter. We should have spent a couple of hundred bil of Tech isk to prove one way or another if Titans actually needed nerfed before pushing it through the CSM.

Our one experiment in this area went better than theory craft predicted and since then we just haven't done it again.
Rick
Van Diemen's Demise
Northern Coalition.
#87 - 2012-03-13 12:45:59 UTC
Wow congratulations to CCP for making this GOONSCRYANDGETWHATTHEYWANT:Online

You have to be f**king kidding me right? the fact that a group of people are willing to bring a trillion is of hardware to a fight against a group 4 times thier number with a total worth of 100billion isk cry cos thier lack ogf ability to be able to get the bigger ships crys you go and complete F**K up this game?

I guess you really dont want my money?! and there will be alot of people that will tell you lot to go take a flying leap and start playing other games were crying like babies doesnt get you exactly what you want!...

You talked to the CSM and are happy to go about these changes?! well of course you are he the damn leader of the people who cry the most about it, you already smashed the Supercarriers to becoming nothing more than ihub shooters, and then you took the DD away from the titans (which i actually didnt care about), but no you go and halve the tracking, and make it impossible to lock anything other than a pos in any sort of fight.

Ok i agree that yes titans need balancing a little, but no where near that stupid amount. its nothing more than an expensive bridge now, and thats it. in which case you should just remove them from the game, people have spent hundred of hours saving and getting the stuff they need for thier titans and are proud to be in them, the same as they WERE in the supercarriers. and your gonna take that away from them all for the sake of a bunch of as*hats crying cos thye cant take over all of nullsec.

again congratulations and hope you realise the amount of subscriptions you are about to lose. might wanna have your devolopers start looking for new jobs.

nice way to end a good game.
Courthouse
Perkone
Caldari State
#88 - 2012-03-13 12:46:14 UTC
Mike712 wrote:
Courthouse wrote:
Mike712 wrote:
Courthouse wrote:
Mike712 wrote:
So goons fly blobs of 2 LSE perma MWDing drakes(read massive sig, in fact as big as a carrier) against titans for 2 months to make them look OP, then titans get nerfed.

Good job goons/mittens now you should have the upper hand against a foe who you greatly outnumber....

Counterpoint: You're from battleclinic and thus have zero idea what you're talking about when it comes to PVP in EVE Online.


lol, you couldn't be more wrong, all of the battleclinic mods are PvPers.

I've seen your website. I'm certain that I'm not.


BattleClinic's main aim is to help rookie pilots, just because I devote a large part of my spare time to helping people with their mission fits dose not infer that I know nothing about PvP, it's simply that I enjoy educating people on basic ship fitting and that's where a part of my enjoyment of eve comes from.


That's nice, honey. Don't talk when the adults are having a conversation. Play with your toy over there for a bit and we'll get you an ice cream when we get home.
Pallidum Treponema
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#89 - 2012-03-13 12:46:22 UTC
This is a typical knee-jerk reaction to the symptoms of a problem rather than finding a solution for the cause.

Let's look at the facts, shall we?

Titans can track subcaps if:

1, the subcaps have high signature (IE, battleships, tanked drakes etc)
OR
2, the subcaps have little or no transversal (IE, moving directly towards or away from titans, orbiting an anchor so that they will range from max to zero transversal)

Additionally, most titan kills of subcaps occur once said titans are configured for max tracking. Without tracking mods, IE fully configured for tank, titans have trouble tracking even battleships that perform properly.

It can also be argued that all fleets so far that have engaged titans and lost have done it wrong; IE, fielded high signature ships (maelstroms, drakes) at perfect titan tracking ranges. A fleet based on low-signature fast moving high-DPS ships (aka, armorhacs) would have fared far better, especially if supported by sniping oracles in order to clear away support from the tians.


Either way, let's look at the two mot obvious facts:

Titans kill subcaps with little tracking or high signature (an MWDing battleship or drake has the signature of a carrier)
Titans need to be tracking fit in order to reliably score kills on subcaps

The obvious solution here is to make tracking fits still possible, but create a far higher risk for the reward.


Change the refitting mechanics in space as follows:

* Capitals (and subcaps) can freely refit off of gang members in space with refitting capability, no more "configuring" or "max 10 ships in range". This is just annoying and pointless, and will be welcomed by any group that has capitals of any kind. It also resolves the problem of theft from capitals, as you no longer have to give out the keys to your ship maintenance bays in order to let someone refit.

* Ships can NOT refit in space, if they have aggression. This ensures that a titan that has configured for tracking at the expensve of tank is now stuck in this mode. This leaves them very vulnerable to a hotdrop by sniping subcaps, dreadnaughts or other supercapitals. This obviously also affects hit-and-run hotdrops with supercarriers or carriers, as capitals performing said hotdrops will be stuck in their cap-recharge configuration, leaving them vulnerable to traps or counter hotdrops.

* Additionally, a small adjustment to tracking or scan res may be in order. Make the adjustments, see how it plays out. If necessary make additional small adjustments. Knee-jerk reactions are overblown and often far overreaching their desired goals.
The reclaiming
Doomheim
#90 - 2012-03-13 12:46:33 UTC
vikari wrote:


So what you're saying is it's better for CCP and the Eve community that a group of 20 Titans can destroy a 250 man subcap fleet? I respect those that skilled for the Titan, hell I did it myself. However I know sure as well that the enjoyment of 20 people at the expense of a 250 individuals is not good mechanics. It isn't good business strategy either.


Using this logic pirate gate camps in low sec should be removed since they are very few people taking enjoyment from the larger number of people they kill.
This is Eve, or it used to be. No one cares if you all die, you were probably stupid.
Euphorion
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#91 - 2012-03-13 12:47:11 UTC
I approve of these changes.
conqueror2006
Eternal Silence Ltd.
#92 - 2012-03-13 12:48:19 UTC
Andski wrote:
conqueror2006 wrote:
no weapons - yes no weapons, if they can´t kill solo one simple dictor, nwo with this nerf, never again


Let's just get something out of the way here: are you saying that titans should be able to effectively solo one of the only two hulls that can tackle them? Do you have any idea how game balancing works?



Balancing for you, is like you usual do ?

400 drakes or more against 20 BS, if you loose 1 drake, is why BS have too mutch dps and are overpower, so you ask ccp to nerf then

400 drakes or more agains 20 TITANS, if you loose 1 drake, is why Titans have too mutch dps and are overpower, so you ask ccp to nerf then


Everytime you loose, is because the others ships are overpower, but you only know to play with high numbers, that is excuses.

You must know how to play this game,, check the level of SP of your members, the age of them, if they know how to fly the ships correct, before asking nerfs to ships.

And yes, one titan need to have the hability to kill one ship and not stay there, for hours and hours if no one come. That is ridiculos, and don´t make any sense.
Rachael Tyrelll
Dynatech Intergalactical Trading Ltd.
#93 - 2012-03-13 12:48:28 UTC
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#94 - 2012-03-13 12:48:37 UTC
CCP, you might want to fix something. You said "base scan resolution reduced to 5"

Didn't you mean "Base scan resolution reduced BY 5" ?

No POS mods or ships can realistically have a scan resolution of 5.
Machine Delta
State War Academy
Caldari State
#95 - 2012-03-13 12:48:48 UTC
Ra Death wrote:
I'm almost at a loss of words here. Almost, therefore I am going to speak my mind.

So now capitals are basically structure grinding machines and you only deploy them if you have something to grind down or if someone else is grinding stuff down and you catch someone else grinding down something. This is not a solution, this is a plaster for a symptom. There is now ZERO reason to deploy supercapitals except to grind down a structure. Do you really want structure grinding to become the motivator for people to build and create supercapitals in EVE? I mean, I don't believe you have thought at all about the consequences of these changes.

EVE is now effectively sectioned off into two tier combat systems. Capital combat and sub-capital combat. The difference is, capitals cannot touch sub-capitals, but sub-capitals can, in the numbers that are brought at the moment, almost 1-3 volley capitals. The titans were a workaround for that because numbers were no longer the only deciding factor, your playing time, your assets and your skillpoints actually played a role. Now we are going back to a time again where the only effective tool, a VERY limited tool might I add, against blobbing is a damn stealth bomber. No more force projection by taking advantage of the many years you have spent in the game and the money you have pooled into a titan, you are better off selling off said titan and joining the nearest Maelstrom fleet.

What am I meant to aspire for in EVE in terms of combat? What is my incentive for actually training all these skills. To fly the next flavour of the month subcapital ship?

EVE is now a numbers game when there is a large effort to remove counters for large fleets. If this is the direction we're going, we're going to see a bipolar political landscape because being a small alliance, you can now only exist if you are a part of the inevitable two powerblocks that will come to dominate EVE. If you can't match the numbers, too bad... join or die.

Let's get a rethink of the roles of supercapitals and not a temporary plaster that will reduce supercapitals to nothing but ihub and station grinders.


Completely agree with this post.
Really this change is over the top and hamfisted.
You could have done better and thought this through.

Maybe CCP will implement something else in the end.
Only a new CSM is going to help fix this, too bad its not going to change.
Rebalancing supercaps is only the start.
Every facet of gameplay is now at risk to being exploited by this tyranny.
Kissapasi
Kissapasi Corporation
#96 - 2012-03-13 12:49:07 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
This will require a reasonably significant amount of work, which we unfortunately don't have the spare resources for right now.


Picks from the patch notes:

- An issue with certain lipstick colors not appearing correctly has been fixed.

- Hull Tanking - Elite certificate no longer directly requires Hull Upgrades IV, as this is superseded by the requirement for Core Integrity - Elite.

- The warp in effects on the sun in Uotila system have been fixed and display correctly.

- The boosters on the Dominix, Sin and Dominix Navy Issue have been moved closer to the ships engines.

- Neutron Blaster turret color will adapt to the racial style of the ship they're fitted to.

- We have revamped the rookie ships which are the first ships new players see in the game. You can read, and see, all the changes to the Ibis, Impairor, Reaper and Velator in this blog.


Sounds like CCP is using their resources well to make the game better for us all. Well, the at least newbship models were completely broken for so long time so it is great that they finally fixed them! Good work CCP.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#97 - 2012-03-13 12:49:21 UTC
Ikoma Sunblazer wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
The scan res number is balanced around multiple Cormack's sensor boosters, on the assumption that money is not a limiting factor for titan pilots, and therefore that people will shell out for officer SBs if that lets them continue do this kind of thing.



All things aside, this is a pretty hilarious assumption that doesn't make sense in context. With a base sensor strength of 5, you are talking about a few seconds difference between t2 and cormack out of a probable minute+ lock time.

Well worth the 4b+ sensor booster imo Lol


Gains you 25s against frigates (105 to 79, assuming 3 are fitted), 15s against cruisers (64 to 49) and 10s against battleships (44 to 33).

If you see this as a big difference, then it's worth balancing around the officer fit given that dropping 12bn on SBs is not a huge fraction of the outlay for a properly-fit titan. If you don't see this as a big difference, then balancing around the officer fit isn't a big deal because it's not having a major impact. Either way, it's a functional assumption Smile
Jita Bloodtear
Bloodtear Labs
#98 - 2012-03-13 12:49:39 UTC
Our numbers show that it'll take 30-40 seconds for a sebo'd titan to lock up another titan, and 60 full seconds to lock up a dread. These scan resolution changes are fine, but you need to increase the signature radii on all capitals and structures (POSes) so they can be locked within our lifetimes.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#99 - 2012-03-13 12:51:41 UTC
Rachael Tyrelll wrote:
CCP, please read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock-paper-scissors

Thanks


So which one of those is the titan? Oh yeah, the one that kills rock, paper and scissors

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Dank Man
#100 - 2012-03-13 12:52:04 UTC
Wow, ccp you must love goons and blobs. because this nerf make the bigger subcap blob win all fights, congrats mittens and goons, you cried enough on the forums and welped enough fleets into capital weapons that you got what you wanted, a capital weapon shield! gg.