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CCP do something about the suicide ganking problem
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Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#221 - 2012-03-13 12:25:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
Tippia wrote:
Tanya Powers wrote:
An overtanked Orca that can't survive a 100man gank in high sec show that Concord it's a stupid game mechanic.
Why the hell should anything (least of all an Orca) manage to survive a 100-man gank, CONCORD or no CONCORD?! Ugh


And why the hell shouldn't this be countered by other means than not mine or not haul?

Quote:
Well, there is another alternative: the other guy was simply very very clever, in which case it's right and proper that he got the kill.


Clever lvl1 -get an alt
Clever lvl2 - train said alt for scaning and pin stuff (few weeks you get a roxxor for that)
Clever lvl3 - search trading routes (you need at least a high grade diploma from Paris or Berlin for this, Harvest not high enough sorry)
Clever lvl4 - train all support gunnery skills to 5, specs to 4 at least, faction ammo, no tank all gank
Clever lvl5 - F1 hit with *souplesse*

Indeed it's a very very clever activity in Eve, if everything else could be that hard to do Eve would be much better.

Just take useless concord away and let null sec alliances take care of all space. My ganker tears mug is ready.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#222 - 2012-03-13 12:33:36 UTC
Aine Ni wrote:
Tippia - by your logic - minecraft is a PvP game Roll
Have you played it on an unmoderated server? It is.

Quote:
The current rules are just clearly in favour of attackers in HS.
Lolno. The current rules make it blindingly easy not to get ganked, but people choose not to employ any of the methods to ensure this and instead rely on the game saving them rather than their own actions.

Tanya Powers wrote:
And why the hell shouldn't this be countered by other means than not mine or not haul?
It should be, and unsurprisingly, it can be. People just choose not to use those counters.

Quote:
Clever lvl1 -get an alt
Clever lvl2 - train said alt for scaning and pin stuff (few weeks you get a roxxor for that)
Clever lvl3 - search trading routes (you need at least a high grade diploma from Paris or Berlin for this, Harvest not high enough sorry)
Clever lvl4 - train all support gunnery skills to 5, specs to 4 at least, faction ammo, no tank all gank
Clever lvl5 - F1 hit with *souplesse*
…and none of that is clever, which makes it very easy to avoid. To actually kill someone that pays attention, more cleverness than that is required. What you listed is what's required if the target is, as the saying goes, pants-on-head-retarded, and as such, very little in the cleverness department is required to beat that level of stupidity.
Henry Haphorn
Killer Yankee
#223 - 2012-03-13 13:04:04 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
I think most people agree that Ganking for profit is a valid tactic, I mean if some lazy guy transports 1B in his Noctis, another 25B in a shuttle, another 20 in an untaked Iteron V they deserve to be instantly pop by people using game tools in a normal way

There are a lot who disagree and I'd be one of those disagreeing about ganking when you mine/haul and there's nothing you can do to prevent a 25M Thrashers gang to pop you before concord kicks their arse.
The fücking mining barge aligns and warps out that fast that a single Thrasher could almost do 2 trips to the closest system and come back to finish it, that is what is ridiculous

It's not really ganking, it's the counters that are close to 0 and have a tower building wall on their back, no way to ascape close to 0 tools to counter other than: not mine, not haul
The ganker has dozens of tools to achieve is goal, the miner the hauler once he put everything on his side to avoid getting ganked or minimise his loss he's still an easy prey because someone somewhere just because he can and no matter the isk effort put in will be able to achieve his goal, and this is what is wrong with ganking and high sec

An overtanked orca in low/null it's ok they're bait or silly so you either engage your forces and take the risk of getting hotdroped or you engage and profit of a silly guy
An overtanked Orca that can't survive a 100man gank in high sec show that Concord it's a stupid game mechanic.


1. You're exaggerating the align speed of mining barges. They're not that slow

2. You are correct to assume that ganking for profit is a valid tactic. Even ganking for control of a belt is still considering ganking for profit as it directly effects the local market

3. Of course an overtanked Orca can never survive a 100-man gank in high-sec space. It's 100 ships versus 1 for crying out loud. That's the equivalent of a single battleship being hotdropped by a blob. In fact, 25 ships is usually considered a blob already by most null-sec alliances. Therefore you presented a scenario in which it is impossible for an Orca to survive just like how a shuttle has no chance against a Thrasher fleet in null-sec.

Adapt or Die
Blatant Forum Alt
Doomheim
#224 - 2012-03-13 13:53:13 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
I think most people agree that Ganking for profit is a valid tactic, I mean if some lazy guy transports 1B in his Noctis, another 25B in a shuttle, another 20 in an untaked Iteron V they deserve to be instantly pop by people using game tools in a normal way.

There are a lot who disagree and I'd be one of those disagreeing about ganking when you mine/haul and there's nothing you can do to prevent a 25M Thrashers gang to pop you before concord kicks their arse.
The fücking mining barge aligns and warps out that fast that a single Thrasher could almost do 2 trips to the closest system and come back to finish it, that is what is ridiculous.

It's not really ganking, it's the counters that are close to 0 and have a tower building wall on their back, no way to ascape close to 0 tools to counter other than: not mine, not haul.
The ganker has dozens of tools to achieve is goal, the miner the hauler once he put everything on his side to avoid getting ganked or minimise his loss he's still an easy prey because someone somewhere just because he can and no matter the isk effort put in will be able to achieve his goal, and this is what is wrong with ganking and high sec.

An overtanked orca in low/null it's ok they're bait or silly so you either engage your forces and take the risk of getting hotdroped or you engage and profit of a silly guy.
An overtanked Orca that can't survive a 100man gank in high sec show that Concord it's a stupid game mechanic.


So much fail in one post.

If the mining barge align times impact you in any way, you are doing it wrong. Anyone with half a brain cell mines aligned to a safe spot/starbase. If you aren't, it is your fault if a gank is successful.

I dont think I have EVER seen more than 6 or 7 people suicide ganking, certainly not 25 - you only need a handful of people to take down a barge or a hauler, maybe 6 to take out a freighter - why would 25 people throw ships and sec status away for no real reason?

There are good counters to ganking, just because you are too incompetant to use them does not mean they dont exist. Warping to 0 and insta-jumping (as well as having a scout alt to avoid gate camps near the main hubs) all but removes the possibility of being ganked while hauling in a freighter. If you get ganked in an industrial, you are truly crap at Eve.

As I said earlier, being aligned when mining means you are 100% safe from ganking. The time it takes to go from stationary to warping when already aligned is shorter than the time it takes for the ganker to select and target you, and then to actually pop you. You will be almost at warp before the ganker has fully come out of warp, so they will not have the time to launch a single volley at you - as long as you are good. Lazy, semi afk miners are free killmails.

A 100 man gank would destroy anything, with the exception of titans, probably supercarriers too. Nothing wrong with that at all, if someone brings enough dps then anything should be able to die.

Overall it just sounds like someone got sand in their eyes playing in the sandbox. HTFU.
Buck Futz
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#225 - 2012-03-13 16:12:17 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Exploits are exploits, PERIOD.

Game ruleset provides you the ability to kill whatever in high sec but at the cost of losing the ship used in the gank.

If you don't lose the ship then you are on the same level of botters. You cheated.


Moreover, those T2 arties were the instrument used to achieve the gank. Without them you'd not kill him. A kill is a transaction where you used a certain setup, that's the setup CONCORD will kill. Circumventing it is certainly worth asking GMs with a petition, it's really shady. It may be seen as "smart use of game mechanics" or just as a cheat-in-the-making that CCP still did not cover with their game mechanics.
Now that it's public expect everyone to do it, strongly pushing CCP into filing it into the "just a cheat in the making" category.


Ah, yes, this is the dynamic.

Carebears whine about gankers getting insurance.
CCP gives in and changes the rules to make ganking more expensive.
Gankers adapt and find clever ways to make ganking more economical.
Carebears whine about that too.

You can use the Orca's fitting service at any time. Mid-Combat, GCC'd whenever. There are no restrictions on its use.
Its actually a VERY effective trick for squeezing an extra 1000 Volley out of your Tornado for 'harder targets'.

Useful ganker tech follows:
Fit 4x Domination Gyrostabs on a Tornado and watch your average volley go up to 14.5K, from 13.5K.
Kill your target, warp - then unload those pricy mods into the Orca before death.
Reuse them on the next time some Exhumer pilot gets uppity and decides to try to tank you.
Remember, 14.5K is only 'average' hit quality - it can go up significantly with 'well aimed' or 'excellent' hits.

Not something you do for your 'run of the mill' Exhumer gank, but always good to have a 'Special Edition' handy.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#226 - 2012-03-13 16:42:02 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Clever lvl1 -get an alt
Clever lvl2 - train said alt for scaning and pin stuff (few weeks you get a roxxor for that)
Clever lvl3 - search trading routes (you need at least a high grade diploma from Paris or Berlin for this, Harvest not high enough sorry)
Clever lvl4 - train all support gunnery skills to 5, specs to 4 at least, faction ammo, no tank all gank
Clever lvl5 - F1 hit with *souplesse*

This catches idiots who are APing with full holds, people who aren't actually playing the game. Why are you defending them?

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#227 - 2012-03-13 17:28:10 UTC
Blatant Forum Alt wrote:

As I said earlier, being aligned when mining means you are 100% safe from ganking. The time it takes to go from stationary to warping when already aligned is shorter than the time it takes for the ganker to select and target you, and then to actually pop you. You will be almost at warp before the ganker has fully come out of warp, so they will not have the time to launch a single volley at you - as long as you are good. Lazy, semi afk miners are free killmails.

You are wrong, passive align does nothing to help you. as far as EVE is concerned your ship is a sphere, which direction it faces matters not.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Danny Husk
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#228 - 2012-03-13 17:49:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Danny Husk
Im Super Gay wrote:
1 put the expensive stuff you want to haul in cans/freight containers
2 contract the cans of stuff to an alt
3 have the alt courier contract the cans of stuff to back you
4 fly immune to cargo scanners

5 paste a giant sign that reads GANK ME YO on the side of your Fenrir
Porkita
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#229 - 2012-03-18 06:41:51 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Don't like being cargo scanned at the undock?, 3 words for you, collateral+courier+contract. Red Frog or Push industries will quite happily take the risk of being scanned, it's part of the job.

It's very rare I set foot in Jita and when I do I tend to leave empty, or explode hilariously.


... very, very happily... hehe

There's already a solution towards not risking losing something very valuable on suicide ganking, at least when you have to move things. Use Push Industries ;)

If CCP made suicide ganking obsolete, it would hurt to some extend not just suicide gankers. How that?

Simple. A lot of players already depend on our service and prefer using us over taking the risk. Even if we would lose the cargo, they don't lose their ISK thanks to the collateral on couriers. Even suicide gankers depend on us at times, to make shipments for them... those might be even ships or ammo that would be used in some gank hehe

But it doesn't end there. Manufacturers in EVE also depend on suicide gankers. Take Tornado producers as example, how many less Tornado's would be sold without a lot of them being blown up on suicide ganks? And it can be continued like that, manufacturers need materials, from which others profit again etc.

That reminds me, those depend also on us sometimes... aaah, it's nice to know, we couriers keep EVE running, at least to some extend, as we make sure supplies for everyone arrive sooner *laughs*

Do I hate suicide ganking? Yes, I do. But do I want it to be "solved" and disappear? No, I don't. At least not, as long it's not extremely unbalanced towards non-suiciders.

There is no need to move stuff, because now you can push it!
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#230 - 2012-03-18 06:49:31 UTC
Jas Dor wrote:
Waaaaah! Cry

Come on. Not in public, man!
Adunh Slavy
#231 - 2012-03-18 10:25:00 UTC
I think perhaps the more sad part of this is, there's nothing better to do. For all its "open ended sandbox" bits, some aspects of Eve are very confined.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#232 - 2012-03-18 11:08:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Solstice Project
Adunh Slavy wrote:
I think perhaps the more sad part of this is, there's nothing better to do. For all its "open ended sandbox" bits, some aspects of Eve are very confined.


It's not the games fault, it's the players fault.
Creativity is something that has to be brought into the game,
the game itself can not magically create it.

TL;DR:
When an ape looks into a book, no genius will come out of it.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#233 - 2012-03-18 14:55:35 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
I think perhaps the more sad part of this is, there's nothing better to do. For all its "open ended sandbox" bits, some aspects of Eve are very confined.


How many SP do you have?

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Jastra
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#234 - 2012-03-18 15:16:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Jastra
[quote]
Pink Leaf wrote:
Simple, if people want pvp then go to low-sec. High-sec is suppose to be a safe haven for all those that want to play the none-pvp side of eve. Or maybe low-sec is to much of a challenge for all of these so-called pvpers.[/quote


No,No, No

No

Seriously no...

Concord provides consequences, not safety, High Sec is not safe and nor do I want it to be, this game is set apart utterly by people high sec ganking, and in other ways screwing with people, it's not a tactic I employ, I am carebear, I spend 90% of my time doing carebearish things and the other 10% losing badly at PVP and I DO NOT want this mechanic changed even if it costs me ISK and ships, it's fun, it makes the game a true challenge, it makes a bunch of ship types and fits viable, and I say this as someone who moves a lot of stuff about. I do not want WOW/insert FOTM mmo here, I want EVE, EVE is fun, unsafe, has consequences, much like real life. BTW to the guy who always scans me on the way out of jita in an empty hauler, well played sir.

I do not agree with you ganking my ship in high sec but I would defend to the hilt your right to do it, to paraphrase.... Lol
Mograthi
#235 - 2012-03-18 15:20:16 UTC
There is no problem here.
Serge Bastana
GWA Corp
#236 - 2012-03-18 15:45:35 UTC
Pink Leaf wrote:
I don't think that suicide ganking has anything to do with P.V.P.
This is P.V.V, Player versus victim. Not the same thing at all.


We've discussed this in game Pink, people make themselves victims, it has happened to me in my early days, I adapted and learned how not to be a victim.

WoW holds your hand until end game, and gives you a cookie whether you win or lose. EVE not only takes your cookie, but laughs at you for bringing one in the first place...

Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#237 - 2012-03-18 16:15:17 UTC
Serge Bastana wrote:
Pink Leaf wrote:
I don't think that suicide ganking has anything to do with P.V.P.
This is P.V.V, Player versus victim. Not the same thing at all.


We've discussed this in game Pink, people make themselves victims, it has happened to me in my early days, I adapted and learned how not to be a victim.



Too bad reinforced bulkheads and damage control units can't be mounted to exhumer class ships.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Henry Haphorn
Killer Yankee
#238 - 2012-03-18 18:18:33 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
Serge Bastana wrote:
Pink Leaf wrote:
I don't think that suicide ganking has anything to do with P.V.P.
This is P.V.V, Player versus victim. Not the same thing at all.


We've discussed this in game Pink, people make themselves victims, it has happened to me in my early days, I adapted and learned how not to be a victim.



Too bad reinforced bulkheads and damage control units can't be mounted to exhumer class ships.


Oh dear, whatever we exhumer pilots should do?Lol

Adapt or Die
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#239 - 2012-03-18 18:23:39 UTC
Henry Haphorn wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Serge Bastana wrote:
Pink Leaf wrote:
I don't think that suicide ganking has anything to do with P.V.P.
This is P.V.V, Player versus victim. Not the same thing at all.


We've discussed this in game Pink, people make themselves victims, it has happened to me in my early days, I adapted and learned how not to be a victim.



Too bad reinforced bulkheads and damage control units can't be mounted to exhumer class ships.


Oh dear, whatever we exhumer pilots should do?Lol


Fit thrashers and kill each other so we can have a day off.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#240 - 2012-03-19 20:38:48 UTC
Vaal Erit wrote:
Link me exactly where CCP states this is how much isk you can safely carry

No? Can't find it? I'll tell you what you can find, is CCP saying that High-sec is not safe space and it never will be. High-sec space is not safe, only safer

Oh and welcome to EVE. Stop your whining and HTFU.




The issue I have with your comment is that compared to high sec, null sec is 500% safer

High sec should never have been called "high sec" since it's not safe or safer than null at all: you never know who's your enemy, they don't need bubbles to grab/kill you because concord eventually will help them, the neutral guy that becomes war target at the undock is a game exploit but this is done all day long at jita and every major trade hub, people gank with no consequence all day long and then spent 1h or 2 killing one BS rat per system and that's it SS is back
This is a complete failure as game mechanic/design

If CCP ever wants or is able to find someone smart enough to figure out that high sec should BE really high sec, they would start by changing game mechanics. Fix SS is far too easy, you can get -10 in a few seconds provided you have some friends with alts, and get positive SS in the same day with no effort

You hit negative status (-5.1) you shouldn't be able to fly anything else than a shuttle or concord should blow your teeth, and before you get the SS back you should really work for months. Scrubs leave? -who cares.