These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

CCP do something about the suicide ganking problem

Author
Johnny Marzetti
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#181 - 2012-03-13 01:44:39 UTC
Xen Solarus wrote:

For pvp to happen in eve, you need ships exploding, simple as.


Thanks for your stupid opinion, but the fact is your opinion is stupid. PvP is anything where you are competing against another player. Highsec is filled with market PvP. It's very high stakes. The OP is asking for shelter from the consequences of that.
Ai Shun
#182 - 2012-03-13 02:02:42 UTC
Xen Solarus wrote:
For pvp to happen in eve, you need ships exploding, simple as.


Odd, I consider all of EVE to be Player versus Player. There is, as you say, the combat aspect. But, when I have run a mission and sold the salvage and modules to the lowest buy order; some player placed that buy-order and is profiting off my laziness. That player "beat" me at the market game. Same for traders. Same for Incursion competition. Same for miners competing on the market. I've struggled, perhaps because of my limited experience, to find something in EVE where there is no competition between players. But it seems foolish to me to see PVP as pure combat as it encompasses so much more.
Jas Dor
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#183 - 2012-03-13 02:46:21 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
Not true, you can put up buy-orders somewhere out of Jita with a higher price then those in Jita. Then people will ship it too you.

You do know markets are based on supply and demand. If you demand stuff at a certain station and the price is right, they suppliers will move it too your station and not Jita.

Mainly people are just buying and selling in Jita because they are lazy and know Jita is market heaven. But if you want rare mineral, just set up buy orders above Jita prices on the border with low-sec/0.0 and people will supply you, null-sec people already take time off to ship it to empire. They will be happy if it means only having to go 1 jump into high-sec instead of a long trip to Jita as it means they can be back in 0.0 doing fun stuff sooner


I've handled high end moon mineral sales for a 0.0 corp before. Your small buy order isn't enough to change the course of a dyspo freighter over. Besides those minerals are simply landing (one jump in), they are being JFed to a quite low sec entry system and scouted through a back route to Jita. Once they arrive they're getting dumped on a Jita buy order, the profit booked, and any amounts due the alliance paid.

I suppose some guys running a mining alt might drop Zyd on your buy orders. Really though nobody is rerouting a high end hauler for your small buy orders. Those things go like a bat out of hell for Jita.

Also buying significantly over market does not help the inflation problem in EvE.
Jas Dor
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#184 - 2012-03-13 02:59:12 UTC
Johnny Marzetti wrote:
Xen Solarus wrote:

For pvp to happen in eve, you need ships exploding, simple as.


Thanks for your stupid opinion, but the fact is your opinion is stupid. PvP is anything where you are competing against another player. Highsec is filled with market PvP. It's very high stakes. The OP is asking for shelter from the consequences of that.


Not what I'm saying at all. Actually I'm saying two things.
1) The level of ship scanning going on is absolutely ridiculous. This has gone from color to crime wave.
2) Eventually the invisible hand is going to beat the eve market senseless and leave it bleeding in a ditch unless something is done to bring down transaction costs.

To this I should add point 3)
If transaction costs do not decrease hyperinflation will continue until PvP in its multiple forms becomes unsupportable. This is the market imparting the RL lesson that lawlessness is a bad thing on your skull. Only by having a special area with hardcoded protections is PvP able to exist. If there were not systemically safe areas the risk premium for goods would render PvP economically unfeasible. (And the failure of EvE along with almost every other unrestricted PvP game out there would become somebodies economics dissertation). By having a safe area with reasonably easy access from unsafe areas, PvP using items built at the safe area price becomes economically possible.

So no I don't hate PvP. I just think most PvPers would cut their own economics throats for a killmail, even if it resulted in null/WH becoming the wasteland the lowsec is.

BTW your alliances (for the Goon poster) holds spaces because other alliances did not understand risk premiums and put price controls on their markets.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#185 - 2012-03-13 03:14:41 UTC
Jas Dor wrote:
Johnny Marzetti wrote:
Xen Solarus wrote:

For pvp to happen in eve, you need ships exploding, simple as.


Thanks for your stupid opinion, but the fact is your opinion is stupid. PvP is anything where you are competing against another player. Highsec is filled with market PvP. It's very high stakes. The OP is asking for shelter from the consequences of that.


Not what I'm saying at all. Actually I'm saying two things.
1) The level of ship scanning going on is absolutely ridiculous. This has gone from color to crime wave.
2) Eventually the invisible hand is going to beat the eve market senseless and leave it bleeding in a ditch unless something is done to bring down transaction costs.

To this I should add point 3)
If transaction costs do not decrease hyperinflation will continue until PvP in its multiple forms becomes unsupportable. This is the market imparting the RL lesson that lawlessness is a bad thing on your skull. Only by having a special area with hardcoded protections is PvP able to exist. If there were not systemically safe areas the risk premium for goods would render PvP economically unfeasible. (And the failure of EvE along with almost every other unrestricted PvP game out there would become somebodies economics dissertation). By having a safe area with reasonably easy access from unsafe areas, PvP using items built at the safe area price becomes economically possible.

So no I don't hate PvP. I just think most PvPers would cut their own economics throats for a killmail, even if it resulted in null/WH becoming the wasteland the lowsec is.

BTW your alliances (for the Goon poster) holds spaces because other alliances did not understand risk premiums and put price controls on their markets.


The best thing we can do is gank Incursion runners and permanently put a stop to their ISK faucet, tbfh.

That's pretty much it in a nutshell. Any questions?

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Ai Shun
#186 - 2012-03-13 04:14:43 UTC
Jas Dor wrote:
(stuff)


I see plenty of disagreement with your assertions thus far. Heck, EVE Online standing and solid after what - 9 years - makes me think you are drawing conclusions you want instead of purely data based ones.
Mika Takahoshi
Doomheim
#187 - 2012-03-13 04:44:41 UTC
lol... the funniest part of this whole thread is people treating suicide ganking like it's a form of PvP, or for that matter, combat. I can't tell you how many times my Tornado has had Obelisks shoot back... I really can't. Really. xD
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#188 - 2012-03-13 05:27:25 UTC
Mika Takahoshi wrote:
lol... the funniest part of this whole thread is people treating suicide ganking like it's a form of PvP, or for that matter, combat. I can't tell you how many times my Tornado has had Obelisks shoot back... I really can't. Really. xD


It's also funny how miners pretend what they do is PVE, when in fact they're PVP'ing over who can hoover up the rocks first, thereby getting the most profit. I can't tell you how many times an American high-sec miner has shown up at a belt during Prime Time just to find them all mined out by the Euros. Really, I can't.

The same goes for marketeering and Obelisks. How many people didn't get a good deal because you bought out the market to fill your stupid pinata? As if that's PVE content, or even remotely "altruistic" in a "caring" sense. Even Incursion runners are guilty of an abstract and malevolent form of PVP.

Pretty much any ISK-intensive activity that's "protected" within high-sec is PVP of a type that's much more dastardly and nefarious than destroying somebody's boat (no matter how valued) at the cost of your own. These people destroy the very value of the ISK other players in Eve earn and the cost they want to pay for this privelege is absolutely nothing.

They deserve everything they get and then some, within the context of the game.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Pink Leaf
#189 - 2012-03-13 05:53:20 UTC
I don't think that suicide ganking has anything to do with P.V.P.
This is P.V.V, Player versus victim. Not the same thing at all.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#190 - 2012-03-13 05:53:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Xen Solarus wrote:
There are tons of players that live in high sec, and enjoy playing eve for all the things that aren't pvp. Remember the term "pvp" isn't unique to eve. Its a term used in all mmo's to describe situations where players are fighting against players.
…and the problem is that “fighting against players” in those lesser MMOs is constrained to just combat, whereas in EVE, it applies to all activities.

Quote:
I've got friends that dont even undock, as crazy as that sounds, prefectly happy playing the market and making insane spreadsheets to add their crazy-high isk levels.
Guess what? He's a PvPer. In fact, he's engaged in one of the most vicious PvP arenas in the game — the market inflicts far more damage on other players than a simple blobfight does.

Quote:
For pvp to happen in eve, you need ships exploding, simple as.
No. For PvP to ahppen in EVE, you need to have one player oppose another player — player versus player, PvP — and that happens everywhere. What you're describing is industry: for industry to happen in EVE, you need ships exploding, otherwise, the industry is completely pointless.

Jas Dor wrote:
Not what I'm saying at all. Actually I'm saying two things.
1) The level of ship scanning going on is absolutely ridiculous. This has gone from color to crime wave.
You're skipping an awful lot of steps there. Ok, let's say the ship scanning has increased. So what? Where's the crime? Has the actual criminal rate gone up? If so, so what? What's the problem?

Oh, and you do understand that the transaction costs you talk about are not really a contributing factor to inflation, right? The inflation is caused by an oversupply of money, and ships blowing up to stimulate production is just what the doctor ordered to balance that out. Having hard-coded safe areas will only mean one thing in EVE: that industry can no longer be allowed to be player-run. Combat is what keeps the economy going; without combat, the economy collapses. Not being able to disrupt industry is a very bad thing in this PvP environment since it drastically reduces the ability to do combat against your opponents.

EVE is a war economy where the broken-window fallacy is not a fallacy — it's the engine that keeps the whole thing turning.

Mika Takahoshi wrote:
lol... the funniest part of this whole thread is people treating suicide ganking like it's a form of PvP, or for that matter, combat. I can't tell you how many times my Tornado has had Obelisks shoot back... I really can't. Really. xD
Just because people brought the wrong ships to the fight doesn't mean it's no longer a fight — just that it's a fairly one-sided one. Even so, here as with most fights in EVE, the outcome is determined long before the first shot is fired, so it's about as much PvP as your average nullsec roam.
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#191 - 2012-03-13 06:13:18 UTC
Mika Takahoshi wrote:
lol... the funniest part of this whole thread is people treating suicide ganking like it's a form of PvP, or for that matter, combat. I can't tell you how many times my Tornado has had Obelisks shoot back... I really can't. Really. xD


So those aren't players piloting those Obelisks? If not then CCP has a much bigger botting problem than they realize.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#192 - 2012-03-13 07:46:49 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
But calling it "the only PvP left for hi sec" sounds like someone is as carebear at refusing to go PvP in low / 0.0 sec as those hi seccers they want to kill.
Highsec is a PvP arena, so why should they have to leave to get some?


High sec is a limited PvP arena, because CCP decided so. Those who are fine with it, pew pew and prosper. Those who wish to unlock the full game are free to go where it's unlocked.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#193 - 2012-03-13 08:00:07 UTC
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Mika Takahoshi wrote:
lol... the funniest part of this whole thread is people treating suicide ganking like it's a form of PvP, or for that matter, combat. I can't tell you how many times my Tornado has had Obelisks shoot back... I really can't. Really. xD
So those aren't players piloting those Obelisks? If not then CCP has a much bigger botting problem than they realize.

If it's highsec, I think they would autopilot? Well if you did it with something worth ganking you're stupid, but usually they are smarter than that...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#194 - 2012-03-13 08:04:07 UTC
Skydell wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Nothing against hi sec ganking.

But calling it "the only PvP left for hi sec" sounds like someone is as carebear at refusing to go PvP in low / 0.0 sec as those hi seccers they want to kill. Nobody pays you to stay in hi sec, if you find it too restrictive to pew pew in there.

Finally, I think CCP should review the lock times. Like nano-extreme brought a nerf, like super unscannable ships got nerfed, CCP should also make lock times limited to a minimum of 1 simulation heartbeat plus about 100ms for out of UK players.


High sec neutral suicide is the only 1 to 3 man PvP left in EVE. Bring anything smaller than a 20 man to low sec or null sec and it's less about PvP and more about evasion. I don't much care if they lock me to be honest. It would be nice to rig a ship to counter scanning though. That's where smuggling comes in to play in EVE. Smuggling that never really came about.


Suicide gank is a lesser kind of PvP, I can see the obvious economic effects (i.e. getting 10 PLEX off a badger) but as pure PvP player I don't see the intellectual / skill challenge or the feeling of victory in doing it.

Since 2009 I don't have much game time so I had to stop EvE *ships* PvP (I play the markets and industry PvP these days), so I play other games a la DAOC / Darkfall Online and similar (Guild Wars 2 for me next).
Even in those, the age of the "fair, solo brawl" are over.

MMOs have gone from an elite, super small and committed player base to a streamlined, mainstream, broad, casual playerbase. The latter don't have skill or highly effective tactics, so the cult for the blob has born.

Every game these days has blob vs 1 or blob vs blob, it's not just EvE.

Depending on the game, however, it's still possible to setup 1v1 to 6v6 (even with video shots!) just by talking with the opponents over forums / voice comms etc. In EvE it's harder and it's a reason why I don't have the time to do it here.

The blob vs blob has been understood and dealt with, by most other PvP games. EvE has no controlled "battlegrounds" or game facilities where top corps can prove themselves and get prizes / brags. The only one is the yearly tournament.

See how cool it would be if such thing was always available, maybe with an ELO-derived system? And the top corps end up being the one chosen for the official EvE tournament.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#195 - 2012-03-13 08:13:37 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
The blob vs blob has been understood and dealt with, by most other PvP games. EvE has no controlled "battlegrounds" or game facilities where top corps can prove themselves and get prizes / brags. The only one is the yearly tournament.

See how cool it would be if such thing was always available, maybe with an ELO-derived system? And the top corps end up being the one chosen for the official EvE tournament.

Ah yes, the tournament. Back in the day, as I understand it, a group of ~top corps~ known as the Band of Brothers used to win tons there. They definitely got lots of brags.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#196 - 2012-03-13 08:16:51 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Jas Dor wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
Not true, you can put up buy-orders somewhere out of Jita with a higher price then those in Jita. Then people will ship it too you.

You do know markets are based on supply and demand. If you demand stuff at a certain station and the price is right, they suppliers will move it too your station and not Jita.

Mainly people are just buying and selling in Jita because they are lazy and know Jita is market heaven. But if you want rare mineral, just set up buy orders above Jita prices on the border with low-sec/0.0 and people will supply you, null-sec people already take time off to ship it to empire. They will be happy if it means only having to go 1 jump into high-sec instead of a long trip to Jita as it means they can be back in 0.0 doing fun stuff sooner


I've handled high end moon mineral sales for a 0.0 corp before. Your small buy order isn't enough to change the course of a dyspo freighter over. Besides those minerals are simply landing (one jump in), they are being JFed to a quite low sec entry system and scouted through a back route to Jita. Once they arrive they're getting dumped on a Jita buy order, the profit booked, and any amounts due the alliance paid.

I suppose some guys running a mining alt might drop Zyd on your buy orders. Really though nobody is rerouting a high end hauler for your small buy orders. Those things go like a bat out of hell for Jita.

Also buying significantly over market does not help the inflation problem in EvE.



Who said small SELL orders, as you are selling you set up sell orders. And I stock up everything till there is a fair amount to be sold.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

Roime
Shiva Furnace
#197 - 2012-03-13 08:21:01 UTC
What suicide ganking problem?

.

Dyniss
KarmaFleet University
#198 - 2012-03-13 09:36:53 UTC
Why not just give freighters slots heck a single low slot for a damage control can't be too much to ask can it?
OmniBeton
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#199 - 2012-03-13 10:19:51 UTC
What i would like to see is :

1.Wreck of the ship destroyed by criminal aggresion beeing owned by victim, not killer.
2.Anyone who steals from someone's wreck/container beeing marked as agressor for EVERYONE (Gary Oldman voice here)

And let the hunt for ganker's hauling alts/partners begins !
cklm
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#200 - 2012-03-13 10:22:12 UTC
suicide ganking is fun

this may look like a signature... but it isn't