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CCP do something about the suicide ganking problem
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Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#201 - 2012-03-13 10:23:21 UTC
Andski wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Huuow wrote:
(Except maybe, is there really no way of escaping concorde? Automatical loss is somehow boring...)

There is a trick involving an orca to save a high priced gank ship. I won't elaborate Pirate


actually, that's considered an exploit - if you get a GCC in highsec and manage to avoid losing your ship, the GMs will lay the banhammer pretty quick.

Hmm, my understanding was it was semi-legit, as long as you got blown up in SOMETHING while CONCORD chased ya.

Might want to check with a GM if I ever do decide to go ganking on that one, my orca alt will be heartbroken.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#202 - 2012-03-13 10:29:25 UTC
Xen Solarus wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:

EVE is a game where EVERYTHING is supposed to be a form of pvp, if its killing someone, or mining the rocks out from under them, or undercutting their prices on the markets.

Essentially, any activity you can thing of with no risk and no competition does not belong in eve(Ice mining is the biggest thing that comes to mind, what with the fact that the floating ice blocks spew forth infinite cubes of frozen fuel, followed by mission running, 2 things most ganked) and most things, when looked at as a pvp activity instead of mindless grinding for more isk, are much more profitable.

If you don't like pvp, get out of eve, because thats all there is supposed to be in this game, even if it is competition over resources and not direct ganking(which is a resource denial tool)


Yeah ive heard this arguement many, many times, and completely disagree. There are tons of players that live in high sec, and enjoy playing eve for all the things that aren't pvp. Remember the term "pvp" isn't unique to eve. Its a term used in all mmo's to describe situations where players are fighting against players. Whereas its true that eve is unique in the sense that everything is player driven, such as the economy, that doesnt mean that everyone is doing pvp similtaniously all the time. I've got friends that dont even undock, as crazy as that sounds, prefectly happy playing the market and making insane spreadsheets to add their crazy-high isk levels. He laughs at such arguments, saying how awesome he is at pvp everytime he makes a bunch of mining vessles.

For pvp to happen in eve, you need ships exploding, simple as. Its the mentaility of low and null-sec players constantly screaming "pvp only game!" while blowing up mostly defenceless targets in high-sec that have no interest in that side of the game that is ultimately harming eve's growth. What reason do carebears have to naturally advance to other areas under these circumstances?

I guess you guys argue so strongly to justify these actions because you love their tears, cause it makes you easy isk, and they they dont tend to shoot back. Well i guess you can give yourself a nice big pat on the back for being so awesome.

Personally i think eve is awesome because it allows both sides of this agreument to enjoy the game. Who cares what makes you love eve, as long as you keep playing and paying. But many people on these forums seem determined to attack those that dont share their narrow view of eve.

And no, as usual, i have to put in the standard "im not a carebear living in empire" addition, just to avoid flamage. Personally, i love a bit of pvp! Cool

First off, go look at my killboard and see if I fall in the ganker category. I'll wait.



Ok, your back? Then we can address the rest. Do you think you are not competing with other players when you use the market, or when you mine, or go ratting? You are taking resources away from someone else who wanted them when you do these activities. This was a stated design goal of EVE from day 1, that everything you do be a form a pvp. Don't believe me? Go look it up, I'll wait again.


Done yet? Good. Now to explain tears. Your post is full of them. There is nothing funnier to alot of us(I include myself there because I have my own methods of tear harvesting without highsec ganks) than someone coming on the forums, or sending an evemail, that so very clearly conveys just how made you got over something stupid, that is ultimately your own fault. Every post you make like the above just makes us happier.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#203 - 2012-03-13 10:31:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Andski wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Huuow wrote:
(Except maybe, is there really no way of escaping concorde? Automatical loss is somehow boring...)

There is a trick involving an orca to save a high priced gank ship. I won't elaborate Pirate


actually, that's considered an exploit - if you get a GCC in highsec and manage to avoid losing your ship, the GMs will lay the banhammer pretty quick.

Hmm, my understanding was it was semi-legit, as long as you got blown up in SOMETHING while CONCORD chased ya.

Might want to check with a GM if I ever do decide to go ganking on that one, my orca alt will be heartbroken.


Exploits are exploits, PERIOD.

Game ruleset provides you the ability to kill whatever in high sec but at the cost of losing the ship used in the gank.

If you don't lose the ship then you are on the same level of botters. You cheated.


Moreover, those T2 arties were the instrument used to achieve the gank. Without them you'd not kill him. A kill is a transaction where you used a certain setup, that's the setup CONCORD will kill. Circumventing it is certainly worth asking GMs with a petition, it's really shady. It may be seen as "smart use of game mechanics" or just as a cheat-in-the-making that CCP still did not cover with their game mechanics.
Now that it's public expect everyone to do it, strongly pushing CCP into filing it into the "just a cheat in the making" category.

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Espen Egak
x13
Pandemic Horde
#204 - 2012-03-13 10:33:49 UTC
Suicide ganking is like corporation stealing and scam contracts all a part of this game. And that is what sepperates the strong from the weak .. the weak begins to whine to CCP about it. The strong are the ones who do not get killed because they know how to get around it.
Blatant Forum Alt
Doomheim
#205 - 2012-03-13 10:42:50 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Exploits are exploits, PERIOD.

Game ruleset provides you the ability to kill whatever in high sec but at the cost of losing the ship used in the gank.

If you don't lose the ship then you are on the same level of botters. You cheated.


But what is the difference between a clever use of the game mechanics, and a cheating exploit?

Jack all, thats what. If CCP don't like a certain use of the game mechanics, then they can fix the hole, like they have done many times over. Until that happens, or until CCP make a public announcement specifically ruling that something is a cheating exploit, then anyone is free to use the game mechanics to their own advantage.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#206 - 2012-03-13 10:44:19 UTC
Dyniss wrote:
Why not just give freighters slots heck a single low slot for a damage control can't be too much to ask can it?
Because then they would have to reduce all freghters' cargo capacity with 25% and all we'd end up with is the same victims being blown up even faster for even more profit.

OmniBeton wrote:
What i would like to see is :

1.Wreck of the ship destroyed by criminal aggresion beeing owned by victim, not killer.
2.Anyone who steals from someone's wreck/container beeing marked as agressor for EVERYONE (Gary Oldman voice here)

And let the hunt for ganker's hauling alts/partners begins !
#1 already happens. #2 makes absolutely no sense.

Blatant Forum Alt wrote:
But what is the difference between a clever use of the game mechanics, and a cheating exploit?
One gets you banned, the other doesn't. Not losing your ship to concord is an exploit, no matter how it happens.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#207 - 2012-03-13 10:47:03 UTC
Pro Tip of the Day:

There are no suicide gankers outside high security space - you can access this tear-free area via regional stargates and wormholes at no cost!

Gain freedom from griefing and experience the beauty of New Eden TODAY!

.
OmniBeton
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#208 - 2012-03-13 10:52:46 UTC  |  Edited by: OmniBeton
Tippia wrote:
Dyniss wrote:

[quote=OmniBeton]What i would like to see is :

1.Wreck of the ship destroyed by criminal aggresion beeing owned by victim, not killer.
2.Anyone who steals from someone's wreck/container beeing marked as agressor for EVERYONE (Gary Oldman voice here)

And let the hunt for ganker's hauling alts/partners begins !


#1 already happens. #2 makes absolutely no sense.


About #1 - sorry, my bad, not a suicide ganking specialist
About #2 - why not ?? If I see one running down the street with someones wallet and old lady screaming should I do absolutely nothing and wait for police to show up ? (HA HA !). Anyway - ganking is not about destroying ship, it's about stealing it's cargo. Behind every suicide ganker is his alt or friend in hauler who quickly grabs the loot and gets the f*** out. Kill him, and ganking will make no sense.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#209 - 2012-03-13 11:00:20 UTC
OmniBeton wrote:
About #2 - why not ?? If I see one running down the street with someones wallet and old lady screaming should I do absolutely nothing and wait for police to show up ? (HA HA !). Anyway - ganking is not about destroying ship, it's about stealing it's cargo. Behind every suicide ganker is his alt or friend in hauler who quickly grabs the loot and gets the f*** out. Kill him, and ganking will make no sense.
…and since ganking is supposed to make sense, it's not a good idea to make that change. It doesn't solve any kind of problem.

Theft in EVE is a personal matter — if someone steals from you (or your corp), it's up to you to exact revenge. You can already take revenge on those making the hit (in fact, they would probably be delighted if more people tried), and while you could conceivably go after the pick-up men as well, constant carebear-whining has greatly diminished the ability to do so. Even so, there is still plenty of opportunity to tweak your nose at the gankers: just beat them to the punch and steal their theft from right under them.

What you're suggesting makes no sense because of the vast implications it would have and the dampers it would put on already well-regulated activities that, if anything, need to be encouraged.
Aine Ni
Doomheim
#210 - 2012-03-13 11:00:57 UTC
Blatant Forum Alt wrote:

But what is the difference between a clever use of the game mechanics, and a cheating exploit?

Jack all, thats what. If CCP don't like a certain use of the game mechanics, then they can fix the hole, like they have done many times over. Until that happens, or until CCP make a public announcement specifically ruling that something is a cheating exploit, then anyone is free to use the game mechanics to their own advantage.


Might be true - but you will still get banned - just like they have done in the past.


EVE a PvP game ? - rofl
EVE is a sandbox


When did sandbox mean PvP?


I always felt sorry for those that think they are better because they PvP over non-PvP'ers - it is like only playing in one small area of the sandbox - I really try to play in the whole sandbox. I PvP, trade, build, gank and a lot more. I dont gank must more - as it is FARE too easy and no challenge. But I guess some people love that it is not a challenge in any way
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#211 - 2012-03-13 11:01:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Misanth
What problem? Last month I hauled tens and tens and tens of billions through Empire - and I never been ganked at all, ever. I did get killed in a hauler once during a war, failed my scouting a bit, but that was five years ago. And a war.

It's gotten easier in the sense that you need less ships to pull off the ganks, but anyone with half a brain do more hauls with less value instead and you're set.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#212 - 2012-03-13 11:03:54 UTC
Aine Ni wrote:
EVE a PvP game ? - rofl
EVE is a sandbox

When did sandbox mean PvP?
The minute you put “multiplayer” in front of it.

A multiplayer sandbox doesn't mean that you can do whatever you want — it means everyone can do whatever they want, including things you do not like. If you want to stop them from doing that, you have to make them stop, and that means engaging in PvP. In fact, even if you choose not to make them, you've already engaged in PvP — you've just chosen to forfeit the match.
OmniBeton
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#213 - 2012-03-13 11:31:24 UTC
Tippia wrote:
OmniBeton wrote:
About #2 - why not ?? If I see one running down the street with someones wallet and old lady screaming should I do absolutely nothing and wait for police to show up ? (HA HA !). Anyway - ganking is not about destroying ship, it's about stealing it's cargo. Behind every suicide ganker is his alt or friend in hauler who quickly grabs the loot and gets the f*** out. Kill him, and ganking will make no sense.
…and since ganking is supposed to make sense, it's not a good idea to make that change. It doesn't solve any kind of problem.

Theft in EVE is a personal matter — if someone steals from you (or your corp), it's up to you to exact revenge. You can already take revenge on those making the hit (in fact, they would probably be delighted if more people tried), and while you could conceivably go after the pick-up men as well, constant carebear-whining has greatly diminished the ability to do so. Even so, there is still plenty of opportunity to tweak your nose at the gankers: just beat them to the punch and steal their theft from right under them.

What you're suggesting makes no sense because of the vast implications it would have and the dampers it would put on already well-regulated activities that, if anything, need to be encouraged.


Revenge how ???
I, carebear, maybe trader or miner, can gather couple of my trader/miner/carebears friends and go after 5 times bigger corp of pvpers, wardec them (costs !) and die miserably. IF we don't need to chase him around entire EVE. IF his suicide character is not some NPC alt he can just leave offline for a month waiting for us to get bored.
You are right saying that they would probably be delighted if more people tried to take revenge, because they know their victims and that they're to weak to strike back, or that costs counterstrike will be higher that their initial loose.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#214 - 2012-03-13 11:39:44 UTC
OmniBeton wrote:
What i would like to see is :

1.Wreck of the ship destroyed by criminal aggresion beeing owned by victim, not killer.
2.Anyone who steals from someone's wreck/container beeing marked as agressor for EVERYONE (Gary Oldman voice here)

And let the hunt for ganker's hauling alts/partners begins !


#1 is already the case. If your ship is blown up, the wreck belongs to you.

#2 is a dumb idea.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Aine Ni
Doomheim
#215 - 2012-03-13 11:40:05 UTC
I agree with you that EVE is a multiplayer sandbox -

But again - multiplayer does not mean PvP Roll


It means you interact with other players. In EVE you can do so by shooting other players in the face with ship cannons and take their stuff - and I'm fin with that. I want to able to do so always - BUT with the current game rules - it's FARE to easy, and no challenge. I would love it to be harder and more of a challenge - then I would start doing it again Twisted

Ganking in it's current form = Taking candy from infants

Something all should be able to do - but not take pride in
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#216 - 2012-03-13 11:41:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
OmniBeton wrote:
Revenge how ???
Shoot him? Steal his stuff? Pay others to shoot him and steal his stuff? Scam every last nickel from him? Outbid his market orders? You know… anything really.

Quote:
I, carebear, maybe trader or miner, can gather couple of my trader/miner/carebears friends and go after 5 times bigger corp of pvpers, wardec them (costs !) and die miserably.
That's your choice and your problem. Just because you've chosen not to be able to take revenge doesn't mean the game should (much less has to) pick up the slack. You are completely free to choose to be a combat powerhouse instead (or use the ISK-procuring powers of a true carebear and pay someone else for the job).

Your choices and your lack of action is not a game design problem.

Quote:
You are right saying that they would probably be delighted if more people tried to take revenge, because they know their victims and that they're to weak to strike back, or that costs counterstrike will be higher that their initial loose.
…and as long as you think like that, he'll be right. Defeatism doesn't lead to victory. Revenge costs, sure, but that's the price of doing business. If you don't want to pay that price, you can pay the other price — being robbed and blown up on an irregular basis — and consider that the cost of doing business.

Aine Ni wrote:
I agree with you that EVE is a multiplayer sandbox -

But again - multiplayer does not mean PvP Roll
It does if you put “sandbox” after it. You just did the same mistake, only in the opposite direction. So let's repeat that one: multiplayer sandbox doesn't mean you can do what you want — it means everyone can do what they want, which can and will include things you do not want them to do.

Quote:
Ganking in it's current form = Taking candy from infants
That's because the victims choose to be infants. They can also choose not to, and suddenly the problem goes away.
Pheusia
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#217 - 2012-03-13 11:42:48 UTC
Misanth wrote:
What problem? Last month I hauled tens and tens and tens of billions through Empire - and I never been ganked at all, ever. I did get killed in a hauler once during a war, failed my scouting a bit, but that was five years ago. And a war.

It's gotten easier in the sense that you need less ships to pull off the ganks, but anyone with half a brain do more hauls with less value instead and you're set.



This is pretty much the bottom line.

If you got suicide ganked in Empire, then you were either lazy, careless or ignorant. In which case it is absolutely right and proper that you lost your ship and your cargo.

Learn to pilot your ships.
Learn to fit your ships.
Learn to choose the appropriate ship.
Learn to use the in game tools available to you (map, scanner, bookmarks, cloak-MWD, scouting, local, intel channels, etc etc etc)

If you do the above, your risk of being ganked drops to essentially zero.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#218 - 2012-03-13 11:54:52 UTC
I think most people agree that Ganking for profit is a valid tactic, I mean if some lazy guy transports 1B in his Noctis, another 25B in a shuttle, another 20 in an untaked Iteron V they deserve to be instantly pop by people using game tools in a normal way.

There are a lot who disagree and I'd be one of those disagreeing about ganking when you mine/haul and there's nothing you can do to prevent a 25M Thrashers gang to pop you before concord kicks their arse.
The fücking mining barge aligns and warps out that fast that a single Thrasher could almost do 2 trips to the closest system and come back to finish it, that is what is ridiculous.

It's not really ganking, it's the counters that are close to 0 and have a tower building wall on their back, no way to ascape close to 0 tools to counter other than: not mine, not haul.
The ganker has dozens of tools to achieve is goal, the miner the hauler once he put everything on his side to avoid getting ganked or minimise his loss he's still an easy prey because someone somewhere just because he can and no matter the isk effort put in will be able to achieve his goal, and this is what is wrong with ganking and high sec.

An overtanked orca in low/null it's ok they're bait or silly so you either engage your forces and take the risk of getting hotdroped or you engage and profit of a silly guy.
An overtanked Orca that can't survive a 100man gank in high sec show that Concord it's a stupid game mechanic.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#219 - 2012-03-13 12:01:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Tanya Powers wrote:
An overtanked Orca that can't survive a 100man gank in high sec show that Concord it's a stupid game mechanic.
Why the hell should anything (least of all an Orca) manage to survive a 100-man gank, CONCORD or no CONCORD?! Ugh

Pheusia wrote:
If you got suicide ganked in Empire, then you were either lazy, careless or ignorant. In which case it is absolutely right and proper that you lost your ship and your cargo.
Well, there is another alternative: the other guy was simply very very clever, in which case it's right and proper that he got the kill.
Aine Ni
Doomheim
#220 - 2012-03-13 12:20:28 UTC
Tippia - by your logic - minecraft is a PvP game Roll
And we can all just do what we like.....

That is not true at all - we all have to follow the game rules - As I cannot just build a ship that can haul more than 10K and still defend itself - they dont excist. And there is NO ship in EVE that cannot be ganked. It is all down to how CCP sets up the rules - and nothing else. The current rules are just clearly in favour of attackers in HS.

Ofcourse, one can argue that is fine. What do we need ore, items and ships for anyway?


CCP is a company that needs to look after it's players wishes - and if most people are happy with the things are - keep the rule.
If not - change it. Otherwise expect most players to leave long term - and this will in turn kill EVE (Just like the NEX issue)


Game rules should ALWAYS be improved to the player base's wishes. Be it some old rules regards Concord or the NEX. Otherwise the game will grow "old" or seen as bad, and players will leave.


Fair enough that you and others like the current rules - also fair enough a lot of others dont.
Crying about that they just need to accept that current rules as they are. How obstinately is that ?
Plus as usefull as *BIP*


Anyways - what do I care - I'm fine either way, and am fairly sure CCP is already working on the HS rules as it is. And I'm willing to bet that they are not going to make it easier to gank, but more likely harder :D