These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Hi, I waste ISK and don't care

Author
Soporo
#1 - 2012-03-13 01:01:07 UTC
Hi, I refuse to buy from what I think are obvious botts and anyone who plays the .01 isk game unless I must, or am in a huge hurry. Point is, I try to minimize buying from botters. Yes, this "wastes" isk, no, I don't care. Yes, I know this aint a scientific way to detect bots, no I don't care because it's the best I can do

For instance, the 75mm Gatling Rail II might be listed at:

437.999.6
437,999.6
437,999.9
etc
etc
etc
etc
etc
etc.add-nauseau
440,000.0
457,320.0
509,999.0
etc

The dude (probably) who listed for 440k gets the sale. So I lose out on a few isk, how terrible, I'll recover. It makes me feel slightly better just thinking that I probably sold to a person, not a bot

Right? Wrong? Does anyone else do this?

Oh, and ibf the meano bean counters in Markets forum.

Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats. - H.L. Mencken

gfldex
#2 - 2012-03-13 01:03:25 UTC
Soporo wrote:
Right? Wrong? Does anyone else do this?


Why you hate profits? Straight

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.

Sasha Azala
Doomheim
#3 - 2012-03-13 01:08:17 UTC
Don't think it matters, if there are several in one station and you chose one at a higher price, you still get the cheapest but you just pay more for it.
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2012-03-13 01:10:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Grumpy Owly
Sasha Azala wrote:
Don't think it matters, if there are several in one station and you chose one at a higher price, you still get the cheapest but you just pay more for it.


QFT, it uses the cheapest possible to be in the sale regardless of selection
Noriko Mai
#5 - 2012-03-13 01:10:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Noriko Mai
Uh.. how? I thought if you buy the 75mm Gatling Rail II for 440k the lowest sell order gets the money...
Same for buy orders. I bought 10M items for 1M because my buyorder was the highest and someone thought there were enough zeros in his sell order Smile
So - if I'm not wrong - you give even more money the the "bots".

EDIT: To slow Sad

"Meh.." - Albert Einstein

Soporo
#6 - 2012-03-13 01:12:33 UTC
Then why does the guys stack I bought from go down?

Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats. - H.L. Mencken

Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#7 - 2012-03-13 01:12:51 UTC
Sasha Azala wrote:
Don't think it matters, if there are several in one station and you chose one at a higher price, you still get the cheapest but you just pay more for it.

Correct. You cannot choose the order.

You always buy from the lowest eligible sell order and sell to the highest eligible buy order.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2012-03-13 01:13:44 UTC
They usually aren't bots though. People often filter the list of products by lowest price. So they will buy the lowest priced item on the list as long as it's not too far away. It's pretty much the same as people selling objects for 9.99 dollars instead of 10 dollars in real life, virtually the same price but one looks smaller. In EVE because of how people filter items, the item that is the lowest price, even if it's just by a few cents will appear first on the list and thus be more likely to sell.

Intentionally buying one item for a higher price than what's available is just ridiculous. Your not saving money and chances are you probably aren't hurting a botter either. It's a lose lose.

The only reason why I can see you doing this is that if you are cleverly manipulating the market by causing people to think that a certain item that you stocked up on to the point of ridiculousness is worth more.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Drew Solaert
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2012-03-13 01:15:37 UTC
Someone needs to learn how the market actually works it seems.

I lied :o

Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2012-03-13 01:15:57 UTC
Soporo wrote:
Then why does the guys stack I bought from go down?


As an example if you bought 20 and there were only 3 cheaper it would select those 3 and remove 17 of those selected.
Soporo
#11 - 2012-03-13 01:17:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Soporo
Naw, just trying to find a way to stop buying from A-holes. So basically what everyone is saying is: It's a lose/lose, particularly in a hub like Jita and market bots are a completely unavoidable aspect of the economy. Nice.

Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats. - H.L. Mencken

Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2012-03-13 01:49:10 UTC
Irrespective of wether its a bot or a player they will both try to move prices towards an equilibrium based on supply and demand.

Bots react just as much to this as players do. Though if they are station trading they will operate on margins and thus may not drive the prices closer to equilibrium if not deemed profitable. That can be due to costs associated with buy/sell orders but also whatever margin of profits they wish to achieve with the process. Players will likley operate in a similar way but can probably operate a bit better within margins to get a trade even if at slightly reduced profit.

As such botting can be helpful with shifts close to equilibirium in prices assuming the supply is there.

But Bots are also much perceived to be more competative to other genuine station traders who may smilarly operate around the buy low sell high operations.

Hard to say if it's a lose/lose as a result from botting.

Also if set accordingly I could imagine that botters can be used to drive price around whatever figures if wanted, by keeping stocks at a certain price long wnough for the change to take effect with everyone trying to operate with that good/item. This assumes there may be the capital to do this, whilst waiting to see the buy/sell prices shift higher for future subsequent gain due to it being a popular trade item. This kind of price fixing for future profit could be easily assisted with botting use.
Ris Dnalor
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2012-03-13 01:53:17 UTC
Soporo wrote:
Hi, I refuse to buy from what I think are obvious botts and anyone who plays the .01 isk game unless I must, or am in a huge hurry. Point is, I try to minimize buying from botters. Yes, this "wastes" isk, no, I don't care. Yes, I know this aint a scientific way to detect bots, no I don't care because it's the best I can do

For instance, the 75mm Gatling Rail II might be listed at:

437.999.6
437,999.6
437,999.9
etc
etc
etc
etc
etc
etc.add-nauseau
440,000.0
457,320.0
509,999.0
etc

The dude (probably) who listed for 440k gets the sale. So I lose out on a few isk, how terrible, I'll recover. It makes me feel slightly better just thinking that I probably sold to a person, not a bot

Right? Wrong? Does anyone else do this?

Oh, and ibf the meano bean counters in Markets forum.



if you click on the 440k person to buy a couple things happen.

1. you still buy from the 437999.6 seller.
2. the 437999.6 seller recieves 440k




https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961

EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody

  • Qolde
Rengerel en Distel
#14 - 2012-03-13 02:01:30 UTC
Soporo wrote:
Naw, just trying to find a way to stop buying from A-holes. So basically what everyone is saying is: It's a lose/lose, particularly in a hub like Jita and market bots are a completely unavoidable aspect of the economy. Nice.


Let's say you ran a party store, and two suppliers offered you their services. One sells you an item for 10.00, the other sells it to you for 9.99. Which are you more likely to buy from if all other things are equal? You'll buy the 9.99 and sell it for 29.99. It's no different in the eve market. The only thing you do by buying the 10.00 is give him part of your profits. The people that 0.01 isk prices are trying to keep as much profit to themselves, which is pretty much the goal in any business.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.

Adunh Slavy
#15 - 2012-03-13 02:14:11 UTC
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Bots react just as much to this as players do. Though if they are station trading they will operate on margins and thus may not drive the prices closer to equilibrium if not deemed profitable. That can be due to costs associated with buy/sell orders but also whatever margin of profits they wish to achieve with the process. Players will likley operate in a similar way but can probably operate a bit better within margins to get a trade even if at slightly reduced profit.



Interesting write up on this the other day as it related to high frequency trading.

http://mises.org/daily/5941/HighFrequency-Trading-Menger-vs-Walras

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Jas Dor
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2012-03-13 02:21:27 UTC
Soporo wrote:

The dude (probably) who listed for 440k gets the sale.


No he doesn't. The sale always goes to the lowest sell order in the station. If you click on a higher priced order you pay more, and the lowest sell order gets the extra isk. (Every once in awhile a trader will have a large chunk of isk magically appear because of this).


Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
#17 - 2012-03-13 05:17:42 UTC
Jas Dor wrote:
Soporo wrote:

The dude (probably) who listed for 440k gets the sale.


No he doesn't. The sale always goes to the lowest sell order in the station. If you click on a higher priced order you pay more, and the lowest sell order gets the extra isk. (Every once in awhile a trader will have a large chunk of isk magically appear because of this).





EXACTLY, THE LOWEST GETS ALL YOUR EXTRA MONEY, IT GOES TO THE BOT, YOU BEEN FEEDING THE BOTS ALL ALONG ROFL!

Evelopedia; 

The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion  †  

Aggressive Nutmeg
#18 - 2012-03-13 05:27:54 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Sasha Azala wrote:
Don't think it matters, if there are several in one station and you chose one at a higher price, you still get the cheapest but you just pay more for it.

Correct. You cannot choose the order.

You always buy from the lowest eligible sell order and sell to the highest eligible buy order.

That sucks. What if I don't want to buy crap made in China?

Never make eye contact with someone while eating a banana.

Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2012-03-13 06:00:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Grumpy Owly
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Bots react just as much to this as players do. Though if they are station trading they will operate on margins and thus may not drive the prices closer to equilibrium if not deemed profitable. That can be due to costs associated with buy/sell orders but also whatever margin of profits they wish to achieve with the process. Players will likley operate in a similar way but can probably operate a bit better within margins to get a trade even if at slightly reduced profit.



Interesting write up on this the other day as it related to high frequency trading.

http://mises.org/daily/5941/HighFrequency-Trading-Menger-vs-Walras


Interesting stuff.

I don't perceive EvE market bots to be that sophisticated however. I would see them simply exploiting a fixed profit margin for trades. Especially with poor sampling of the entire EvE market as a result. I could be completey wrong however if sampling and prediction software are in their structure for determining buy/sell even better than players determinations though. All the more reason to remove botting of course.

The other argument is of course to allow all players to use them legally. But that then affords outside issues with bot sales etc. aswell as the removal of gameplay and understanding gained from being actively participating with market details. You do get a good understanding of what people are using/doing sometimes also, just by seeing what is traded the most (assume adjusting for price index).

This char is a station trader (well all my toons are to some extent), and I change my orders manually and periodically to play the buy low, sell high game quite regularly with any effectiveness. I accept it as part of the process to being competative even when there are other "tricks" of course.

My personal preference however is to remove all botting and keep the game interest as active as possible with player interaction.
Adunh Slavy
#20 - 2012-03-13 08:15:13 UTC
Let's get this out of the way ...

Grumpy Owly wrote:

My personal preference however is to remove all botting and keep the game interest as active as possible with player interaction.


With ya 100% on that, I do not like cheaters in my markets or anyone's markets.
I didn't bring up the article in support of bots, just that it is interesting and seemed germane.


Grumpy Owly wrote:

I don't perceive EvE market bots to be that sophisticated however.


Yeah the Eve market bots are pretty stupid, but they do not have to be very smart to play the simple spread game, which is all high frequency trading is really doing anyway.

Bots don't break the market mechanic from a Mengerian perspective, as the article describes, but they do steal game play opportunity from players and circumvent the time and effort values in the economy, and that is more than reason enough to burn them all.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt