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New dev blog: Rebalancing EVE, one ship at a time

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Author
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#1541 - 2012-03-08 18:46:22 UTC
Baah, all relevant and irrelevant skills already maxed .. looking forward to Tiericide bickering though so good stuff.

Now that you are making it easier/faster to fly a significant number of ships, how about adding a bit of incentive for maxing requisite skills, ex. if BS will require BC 4 then taking BC to 5 gives you +2% to some not entirely insignificant BS attribute.
Could be particularly effective at promoting the "specialization" concept when it comes to T2 as persons taking the time to 'finish' the requisite T1 skills would be just a smidgen better in his role than the commoner.

You are looking at ways to reward old-timers right? Smile
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1542 - 2012-03-08 18:47:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Mioelnir wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Q: can we opt out for skills we don't want during the reimbursement process?

A: well, again, it depends on how it is done. We may just bluntly give all four variants at V if you had battlecruiser V for example, or maybe require that you also add the relevant Cruiser skill trained at level 3 to be eligible. On the latter case, just don't train the cruiser 3 skill, and you should not receive the new racial battlecruiser at 5. Not sure why one would do that however, it's like skipping free candy or cake while visiting your grandma.


So, the idea of the change is to stop skills that give access to too many hulls, to promote specialization, but one is actually "punished" for not training every ship under the sun prior to the change since it will mean getting less free candy?
Does that really make sense to you?

As a fairly specc'ed char (Minmatar/Angel only), my options are to ruin my character with another two cruiser skills I have no interest in flying, or missing out on 4.096m SP less candy (16 ranks, 2 race's destroyer/battlecruiser 5)? 2 months of skilltime?

No good thing will come out of any of the options presented so far. If a char has the destroyer skill, drop him the 4 books in his home station and give him the SP he actually has in that skill as unallocated SP. Same for BC. Or, if you want to keep the "can fly the same ships before and after" constraint, give everybody 4 times the SP they had in the skills.
So they can decide.

And maybe give us the option to permanently unlearn a skill, losing (!) the SP in it, so we can clean up orphaned requirement skills if they offend us optically in our character sheet.....

Also, trying to offset reduced capital skill-training times with the new requirement design with additional requisites either means meaningless requisites that everyone is guaranteed to have (Mining I), or even MORE candy that needs to be handed out so noone loses the ability to fly a ship. I already see the mad scramble of supercap pilots trying to get the needed skillbooks that they had dropped in some corner of New Eden to their ship so they can officially fly and use it again.

TL;DR: I support the idea and the intent of the change. But the implementation concepts presented so far scream "whiteboard now!"


While your post screams "Obsessive/ Compulsive".

Quote:
And maybe give us the option to permanently unlearn a skill, losing (!) the SP in it, so we can clean up orphaned requirement skills if they offend us optically in our character sheet.....


Really? REALLY?!? Big smileBig smileBig smile

Here is what you really need to understand:

In this issue the amount of skill points you have is MEANINGLESS. Actually, they always have been, but I don't want to confuse you further.

The only thing that matters are the abilities your character possess.

Having 100million skill points means absolutely nothing, except the clone you need to keep around. What matters are the abilities you have as a character... and in this case that the proposed changes do not take away any abilities you had before.

Until you understand this, you're not going to understand much else about this issue.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#1543 - 2012-03-08 18:55:05 UTC
The more I think about the SP distribution issue, the more of a wash it becomes. From the POV of someone new to the game, the biggest issuse is that training racial frigate v opens up significantly more than any racial destroyer or BC lvl V can, (and ultimately BS) and would be a very tough sell to a new player who just wanted more ships to try.

The only way you can solve that is by adding more ships... :yarrr:

Beyond that there are a significant list of questions building up. I hope you've made notes, will come up with CSM approved answers and implement prior to heaps of play testing and construtive, collaborative feedback.
;)

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction

Mukuro Gravedigger
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1544 - 2012-03-08 19:00:32 UTC
Call me a pessimist, but until I see the final effects within my skill tree and skill points, I'll take whatever is stated in this thread with a grain of salt.

I have this feeling that similar to the old Learning skills, whereas most people came out ahead, those that were maxed out lost in the long run with the removal of the percentage modifier. Hopefully the same will not happen here.

But we shall see.
Lord Helghast
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1545 - 2012-03-08 19:01:01 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:


The only way you can solve that is by adding more ships... :yarrr:



HELL YA YOU CAN SAY DAT AGAIN...
More destroyers, i'd like to see more realistic frigate and destroyer roaming squads. variation of more destroyer hulls sounds great.
Mioelnir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1546 - 2012-03-08 19:03:36 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
While your post screams "Obsessive/ Compulsive".

Quote:
And maybe give us the option to permanently unlearn a skill, losing (!) the SP in it, so we can clean up orphaned requirement skills if they offend us optically in our character sheet.....


Really? REALLY?!? Big smileBig smileBig smile
Yes. Big smile
Petitioned the removal of Mining I once. Didn't work. *Sniff*
Lili Lu
#1547 - 2012-03-08 19:09:19 UTC
Lord Helghast wrote:
Pattern Clarc wrote:


The only way you can solve that is by adding more ships... :yarrr:



HELL YA YOU CAN SAY DAT AGAIN...
More destroyers, i'd like to see more realistic frigate and destroyer roaming squads. variation of more destroyer hulls sounds great.

No. There are ships in the game that need fixing. These will be your new ships once they are fixed. Totally new ships are not needed. Changing the skill tree is not needed.

What good is a new line of destroyers. What would be the purpose. They would just further obsolete so many of the cruisers already in the game with no utility.
Gabriel Grimoire
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1548 - 2012-03-08 19:13:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Grimoire
Mioelnir wrote:
Insanely OCD-riddled whine post.


Shocked

Holy dogshit... are you one of those dudes who goes around doing everything in threes?
Haifisch Zahne
Hraka Manufacture GmbH
#1549 - 2012-03-08 19:14:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Haifisch Zahne
REMOVED TO PROTEST CCP's Community Censorship Protocol ("CCCP").
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1550 - 2012-03-08 19:17:12 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
Lord Helghast wrote:
Pattern Clarc wrote:


The only way you can solve that is by adding more ships... :yarrr:



HELL YA YOU CAN SAY DAT AGAIN...
More destroyers, i'd like to see more realistic frigate and destroyer roaming squads. variation of more destroyer hulls sounds great.

No. There are ships in the game that need fixing. These will be your new ships once they are fixed. Totally new ships are not needed. Changing the skill tree is not needed.

What good is a new line of destroyers. What would be the purpose. They would just further obsolete so many of the cruisers already in the game with no utility.


The whole point of the skill changes, and the end of the Tier system, is to rectify the problem of obsolete hulls in the cruiser line (among others)... AND to make it far easier to introduce new varients of hulls that they would have liked to have done in the past but could not.

There have been literally dozens of excellent proposals for new, unique, useful Destroyer hulls made over the years... Point Defense Destroyers, Counter Covert Ops Destoyers, Heavy Bombers, Ninja Salvaging Craft to name a very few. The old system made their introduction problematic, the new system makes their serious consideration realistic... and at the same time addressess the core issues that make a great many existing ships obsolete.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1551 - 2012-03-08 19:20:05 UTC
Haifisch Zahne wrote:
More CCP tinkering where it is not needed. Just unimportant, but difficult (read "time-consuming" for devs) changes we don't need.

Can we say, "Increase skill requirements to draw out membership times to bring more revenue"?

As someone who prefers the Faction battleships but can only use one of them currently, has cruddy dessie and battlecruiser skills, and needs lots of work on two of the other kinds of Faction spaceship command skills, this adds a lot of time to my future training plans. Like a month. Read $15.

Finally, looked at from the real world, I hardly believe that Navy Captains have to train Frigates--> Destroyers --> Cruisers --> Battlecruisers --> Battleships. My grandfather was the captain of a cruiser, never heard any word of him even on a frigate, let alone a destroyer.

And, I just have to say, I loved the line that the Dominix have "great damage and mobility, but average defense. Similar in role with cavalry." That might be true, if the Dominix could actually MOVE.


Can we say "I have completely misunderstood the intent, and more importantly the actual end result, of everything being discussed in this thread"?

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions
#1552 - 2012-03-08 19:22:43 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Mikron Alexarr wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Mikron Alexarr wrote:
As an example, I don't want the mining bonus to increase for an osprey, because CCP want more people to use it for mining. I want it to get another high slot and turret point. This can open up a whole new set of possibilities for the osprey to be used for more than just mining/logistics.

When is the last time you really say someone use an osprey for anything other than mining/pos repping unless it was for a lark?

We discuss trying to work those T1 logis into fleets all the time, but in the end it just doesn't happen.


I would say that it's not seeing any fleet action because of it's limited utility. It can't damage anything significantly. It can't exactly fit a lot of EW to go along with it's garbage dps. It's ability to survive any kind of direct onslaught or keep range is worse than it's potential dps. These are the reasons why you don't see them in fleets. These reasons are what need to be looked at on a case by case basis. Making a ship that can't move, can't take a hit, remote rep more isn't going to make it more viable in a fleet.

But if its role is to give newbies a chance to help posrep/mine from with good bonuses, and not go in fleets, thats not a bad thing.

They fill the very important role of a bridge to mining hulls, and the less important role of helping with gruntwork. Why should the vets in logis/carriers carry all the load?

I'm more worried about more useless hulls, like the Celestis. Might not see many ospreys, or Bellicoses, but when is the last time you saw anyone at all in a Celestis, or a Breacher?


It's been awhile since I've done recruiting in minnie space, but breacher ~ bantam. It's the mining frigate that matar start out a mining career with. Celestis useless? It's got more tank and more dps than the EAS for the gallente while maintaining all of it's ability to sensor damp. It's in the same boat as a blackbird.

Those ships are flown by people that want support for T1 gangs. Boosting their general usability doesn't require a rewrite of the system. Another midslot for the celestis would mean they could take 2 ships down to minimum range targeting. I don't see how those ships you mentioned are useless. In fact, the celestis is almost more useful in gangs than the osprey, because it can interrupt targeting of other ships that might want to kill it, adding to both survivability and utility.
Swearte Widfarend
Ever Vigilant Fountain Defenders
#1553 - 2012-03-08 19:23:24 UTC
Haifisch Zahne wrote:
Finally, looked at from the real world, I hardly believe that Navy Captains have to train Frigates--> Destroyers --> Cruisers --> Battlecruisers --> Battleships. My grandfather was the captain of a cruiser, never heard any word of him even on a frigate, let alone a destroyer.


Ok RL /= EVE. But here goes. A Naval (as in government naval) Captain commands cruisers or larger. However, a civilian ship's captain must have a license to pilot a vessel. There are different licenses depending on the gross tonnage of the vessel. Which, strangely enough, sounds very similar to skills for different sized ships.

Why are we talking about this?

Democracy is only as good as the despot managing the voting booth.

Lili Lu
#1554 - 2012-03-08 19:24:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Ranger 1 wrote:
The whole point of the skill changes, and the end of the Tier system, is to rectify the problem of obsolete hulls in the cruiser line (among others)... AND to make it far easier to introduce new varients of hulls that they would have liked to have done in the past but could not.

There have been literally dozens of excellent proposals for new, unique, useful Destroyer hulls made over the years... Point Defense Destroyers, Counter Covert Ops Destoyers, Heavy Bombers, Ninja Salvaging Craft to name a very few. The old system made their introduction problematic, the new system makes their serious consideration realistic... and at the same time addressess the core issues that make a great many existing ships obsolete.

You don't need to mess with the skill tree to rectify obsolete hulls in the cruiser line. You just have to redesign their stats and bonuses. As with any ship the more levels in that ship skill the better you are at the role the ship has.

Certainly all the roles you mentioned for "new" destroyers could be assigned to the worthless cruisers and frigs we presently have in the game. No need for new destroyers.
prolix travail
Blue Mountain Trails
#1555 - 2012-03-08 19:33:59 UTC
What about those who have only trained a certain races skills i.e all caldari or minmatar for rp reasons? i wouldn't like my skill tree polluted with arbitrary bc lvl5 for a race of ships i never wanted.

Can we have a choice of which skills we want or where to put the skillpoints?
Lili Lu
#1556 - 2012-03-08 19:36:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
This would imply you already "polluted" it with another race of Cruiser 4 it seems. So nbdP
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1557 - 2012-03-08 19:43:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Tippia wrote:


Malcanis law Malcanis law Malcanis law Malcanis law Malcanis law Malcanis law Malcanis law Malcanis law Malcanis law Malcanis law Malcanis law Malcanis law Malcanis law Malcanis law Malcanis law Malcanis law Malcanis law Malcanis law Malcanis law

...

"Therefore newbs will have it easier"


Ok, I suppose that seals the deal, no need to discuss further.
Dormax
Sumo Wrestlers
#1558 - 2012-03-08 19:48:26 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
There have been literally dozens of excellent proposals for new, unique, useful Destroyer hulls made over the years... Point Defense Destroyers, Counter Covert Ops Destoyers, Heavy Bombers, Ninja Salvaging Craft to name a very few. The old system made their introduction problematic, the new system makes their serious consideration realistic... and at the same time addressess the core issues that make a great many existing ships obsolete.


Help me understand. Why would adding new destroyers into the current system be problematic?
Destroyers 5 + Cloaking 4 + Missile Bombardment 4 = Heavy Bomber 1
Destroyers 5 + Assault Ship 5 = Medium Assault Ship 1
Interdictor 5 + Propulsion Jamming 5 + Graviton Physics 5 = INTERDICTION SPHERE LAUNCHER II (with new anti-cloak bubble)

Doesn't seem that difficult to me, unless there's something I'm not understanding.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1559 - 2012-03-08 19:50:32 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
The whole point of the skill changes, and the end of the Tier system, is to rectify the problem of obsolete hulls in the cruiser line (among others)... AND to make it far easier to introduce new varients of hulls that they would have liked to have done in the past but could not.

There have been literally dozens of excellent proposals for new, unique, useful Destroyer hulls made over the years... Point Defense Destroyers, Counter Covert Ops Destoyers, Heavy Bombers, Ninja Salvaging Craft to name a very few. The old system made their introduction problematic, the new system makes their serious consideration realistic... and at the same time addressess the core issues that make a great many existing ships obsolete.

You don't need to mess with the skill tree to rectify obsolete hulls in the cruiser line. You just have to redesign their stats and bonuses. As with any ship the more levels in that ship skill the better you are at the role the ship has.

Certainly all the roles you mentioned for "new" destroyers could be assigned to the worthless cruisers and frigs we presently have in the game. No need for new destroyers.


You really need to go back and read the dev posts describing the problems inherent with the current system. More importantly you need to understand them.

Additionally they already have plans for the current obsolete hulls in game, allowing them to seriously consider (for the first time) the frequently asked for inclusion of some new Destroyer variants.

You may feel that new destoyer hulls are not wanted or needed, but most of the EVE community disagree's with you... and has elaborated on why countless times.

The Dev responses in this thread have very completely spelled out why these changes are being considered, and their reasoning is sound. You would probably be better served promoting your idea's of how best to impliment them rather than arguing a patently lost cause.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#1560 - 2012-03-08 19:54:36 UTC
dont like the changes, why you guys fix things which arent broken instead of focusing on real broken aspects of the game?!?!
Dumbing down the game is only brings short term success.