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New dev blog: Rebalancing EVE, one ship at a time

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Stella SGP
#961 - 2012-03-07 03:37:03 UTC
The changes does not have to happen all at once. When CCP has finalized the changes, assuming it is whats been said in the Dev Blog, then -

Step 1 - Release new skill several months in advance while giving out 1 free remap. This gives players the option to start training them early.

Step 2 - On release day, reduce the skills requirements and bonus for T2 Destroyers and T2 Battlecruisers to Racial Frigate 5 and Racial Cruiser 5 respectively, previously requiring Destroyers and Battlecruisers Level 5. Leaving Command Ships and Interdictors skill bonus as it is. While reimbursing trained SPs in Destroyers and Battlecruisers skill.

Step 3 - After several more months, then finalize the proposed changes to the new skill requirements for T2 Destroyers and T2 Battlecruisers, requiring level 5 in the new Racial Destroyers and Racial Battlecruisers skill.

This method maybe a long drawn one, but CCP does not have to give out any free SPs, which I'm totally against. Also, I'm not too concerned about T1 Destroyers or T1 Battlecruisers as training the new Racial skills to level 4 doesn't take long anyway.
Danny Husk
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#962 - 2012-03-07 03:37:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Danny Husk
*laughs as EVE servers buckle under the strain of 55,000 people logging in at once to queue BC V*

Seriously though, on top of being annoying and bad, this is an inexcusably half-assed attempt at "rebalancing" anything, or even explaining this "plan." And all the little bits like "Dominix as a fast attack hit and run ship" prove that whoever hatched this has no concept at all what the current ships are, or do, or should do, in any sense.

If your goal is to force everyone to pony up for three more alts when they decide to cross-train; good work. Otherwise, there is no way in which anything suggested here "balances" any ships at all. All you're talking about is forcing people to pay you 50% more subscription time to do the same old thing, in the same old ships. That may help to balance your revenue stream, but it has nothing to do with balancing the game.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#963 - 2012-03-07 03:37:34 UTC
Andski wrote:
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:
Again, **** this **** and how did you get it past the CSM?


That's the thing, the CSM was apparently left out of the loop on this one. CCP isn't obligated to run anything by them, but it's certainly to their benefit if they do and don't want massive threadnaughts.

CSM posts have been for the changes for the most part.
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#964 - 2012-03-07 03:38:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Grey Stormshadow
Moraguth wrote:
Grey Stormshadow wrote:
Harrigan VonStudly wrote:
Just so I have this right.

There are many who think that it is ok to have to retrain what has already been planned, bought, and time spent training because we will be given the isk back and sp needed to retrain what we've already spec'd out and trained ALREADY ?

So you're ok with big brother (CCP) taking what you have already earned and making you do it over again because it's, well, only a little bit of time? Am I reading right?


As the choises are here I am thinking that option one is least bad choice. So yes.

Obviously if they do it right, big part of entire spaceship command skilltree will be reimbursed and most likely some no longer needed skills can be used to compensate towards the 3 new factions. Even without those there should be enough points to get all destro and bc skills up to level 4 if original skill was capped. This means that you can fly all factions tech 1 variants but not necessarily tech 2.

This skill reimbursement part of this plan is really something where you just have to pick the least bad option and live with it. Personally I don't see this a reason why entire plan should be cancelled as there is plenty of potential for good stuff when discussed and implemented properly.


Grey, I have two things to tell you. First off, the word you're looking for is choices, not choises. I noticed it the first time you used it a few pages ago, but since you did it twice, it obviously needs to be brought to your attention.
Secondly, go back to the first page and read the posts there please. You are spreading speculation that is completely contrary to what the DEVs have said.

Thanks!


Thank you for reminding me that engrish is not my native language....

...and yes I am well aware that they have said that people will continue to be able to fly same ships they have been able before. However I am not so sure how they will keep this promise without donating more skill points to those with higher BC/Destro skills than to those who don't have them capped. Also the fact that training towards those would take 4x longer after the change gives me full right to speculate with the promise they made.

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Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions
#965 - 2012-03-07 03:38:55 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Ok this thread needs some love now.


SKILLS:


  • Destroyer and Battlecruiser reimbursement: it has been said before, but allow us to repeat again, that we do not want to cut ships you can already fly. Thus, having BC skill at 5 would mean you get all four variations at 5.

  • BS skill at IV for capitals: alright, there is good feedback on that. Point is to make the progression consistent by requiring a skill at 4 to train for the next, higher size class, and 5 for tech 2 ships. If we feel it becomes suddenly too easy to train for capitals, we can always compensate by adding that time back on one of the other, support skill prerequisites for them. Same reasoning applies for freighters. The point of this blog is to specifically discuss such matters before moving forward with them, and for this, you are welcome.



CONFUSING BLOG PICTURES:


  • Confusion between the skill tree change and the ship tree charts: the skill change displays where we want to bring you in the long term future with the overhaul, while the ship tree chart display the current, in-game TQ ship tree. We will show the updated, long term ship trees in the next blogs when they have been fleshed out a bit.



CSM NOT INCLUDED?!:


  • I will be honest by saying this is due to my own failure here, please do not blame CCP, or any other employee on that matter. I just plainly and simply forgot to include them in the feedback process; I know that sounds incredibly stupid, unbelievable or even naive, but you have to realize that between various work duties, procedures that have to be followed, internal meetings and reviews, random design emergencies, questions that pop-up from your team, plus being split into different projects that have to be finished in time, you are bound to forget things in the heat of the moment for being tremendously busy.

    • I will not attempt to justify myself however, this was a professional blunder on top of showing a serious lack of courtesy toward them as individuals, but also as elected representatives of the player base.

    Yes, I do fully acknowledge the value they could have brought to this blog before it was released. Trust me, had I remembered about it, this would have been done as it would have saved a lot of confusion here Oops.

    That is why, not only as a CCP employee, but also as an individual, I would sincerely like to apologize to every and each member of the CSM I forgot to include here. CSM, feel free to smack me in the back of my head during Fanfest to remind me that being absent-minded has life threatening, rage inducing consequences that should be avoided at all costs.



We will keep monitoring this thread and post updates in the next days if there are more issues coming up.


I would still like to see some more comments on some of the fundamental issues raised in this thread concerning the restructuring of the ship roles and skill dependencies.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#966 - 2012-03-07 03:42:57 UTC
Grey Stormshadow wrote:
Moraguth wrote:
Grey Stormshadow wrote:
Harrigan VonStudly wrote:
Just so I have this right.

There are many who think that it is ok to have to retrain what has already been planned, bought, and time spent training because we will be given the isk back and sp needed to retrain what we've already spec'd out and trained ALREADY ?

So you're ok with big brother (CCP) taking what you have already earned and making you do it over again because it's, well, only a little bit of time? Am I reading right?


As the choises are here I am thinking that option one is least bad choice. So yes.

Obviously if they do it right, big part of entire spaceship command skilltree will be reimbursed and most likely some no longer needed skills can be used to compensate towards the 3 new factions. Even without those there should be enough points to get all destro and bc skills up to level 4 if original skill was capped. This means that you can fly all factions tech 1 variants but not necessarily tech 2.

This skill reimbursement part of this plan is really something where you just have to pick the least bad option and live with it. Personally I don't see this a reason why entire plan should be cancelled as there is plenty of potential for good stuff when discussed and implemented properly.


Grey, I have two things to tell you. First off, the word you're looking for is choices, not choises. I noticed it the first time you used it a few pages ago, but since you did it twice, it obviously needs to be brought to your attention.
Secondly, go back to the first page and read the posts there please. You are spreading speculation that is completely contrary to what the DEVs have said.

Thanks!


Thank you for reminding me that engrish is not my native language....

...and yes I am well aware that they have said that people will continue to be able to fly same ships they have been able before. However I am not so sure how they will keep this promise without donating 4x more skill points to those with higher BC/Destro skills than to those who don't have them capped. Also the fact that training towards those would take 4x longer after the change gives me full right to speculate with the promise they made.

I have no issue believing it as the only thing I'll really be gaining is higher clone costs. 4x more SP, if specifically allocated into the newly separated skills provides no benefit to the receiver. It's really the only way to keep their promise if that promise includes command ships and interdictors.
Moraguth
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#967 - 2012-03-07 03:45:40 UTC
Grey Stormshadow wrote:
Moraguth wrote:
Grey Stormshadow wrote:
Harrigan VonStudly wrote:
Just so I have this right.

There are many who think that it is ok to have to retrain what has already been planned, bought, and time spent training because we will be given the isk back and sp needed to retrain what we've already spec'd out and trained ALREADY ?

So you're ok with big brother (CCP) taking what you have already earned and making you do it over again because it's, well, only a little bit of time? Am I reading right?


As the choises are here I am thinking that option one is least bad choice. So yes.

Obviously if they do it right, big part of entire spaceship command skilltree will be reimbursed and most likely some no longer needed skills can be used to compensate towards the 3 new factions. Even without those there should be enough points to get all destro and bc skills up to level 4 if original skill was capped. This means that you can fly all factions tech 1 variants but not necessarily tech 2.

This skill reimbursement part of this plan is really something where you just have to pick the least bad option and live with it. Personally I don't see this a reason why entire plan should be cancelled as there is plenty of potential for good stuff when discussed and implemented properly.


Grey, I have two things to tell you. First off, the word you're looking for is choices, not choises. I noticed it the first time you used it a few pages ago, but since you did it twice, it obviously needs to be brought to your attention.
Secondly, go back to the first page and read the posts there please. You are spreading speculation that is completely contrary to what the DEVs have said.

Thanks!


Thank you for reminding me that engrish is not my native language....

...and yes I am well aware that they have said that people will continue to be able to fly same ships they have been able before. However I am not so sure how they will keep this promise without donating more skill points to those with higher BC/Destro skills than to those who don't have them capped. Also the fact that training towards those would take 4x longer after the change gives me full right to speculate with the promise they made.


On the first thing, no problem. Whenever I try to type in a foreign language, even one i know well, i mess up similar sounding letters ALL THE TIME! :)

For the second, if you think they're lying, just come out and say so. Many other people have. I just didn't want other people who skipped the first page to see your post and think what you said was anywhere near official. As of right now, there is an official answer, and it is much better than your scenario. Benefits old players, makes life a bit harder on new players (which I think is a shame).

I'm not hating on you or your ideas, just trying to keep things clear.

I got a Feature Added!

Stop calling an Abaddon "abba-dawn".  It is "uh-bad-in" dictionary.com/abaddon
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#968 - 2012-03-07 03:46:13 UTC
I think some of you are too caught up in your character and not thinking about the game as a whole. F*** my goals. Sometimes s*** changes in life and you need to adapt. Some would argue that's part of what makes life an adventure. You aren't guaranteed that following the path most taken in life will get you to the same place it got the next guy, and you sure as hell can't say that in an internet spaceship. Maybe taking a step back and doing a little revamping of the fundamental EvE experience will breath new life into the game for everyone and make it more challenging and fun. I see, as usual, a lot of rage::quit threats. Relax. EvE is f'n OLD. It's an OLD OLD OLD a** MMO. Maybe a facelift is in order? Maybe it's time for a new EvE experience... an expedition into the unknown? A new battlefield with new variables? ...or maybe you are just too caught up in your current "plan" which was never designed to accommodate change. Roll

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Olaf4862
Dragoon Industries Limited
#969 - 2012-03-07 03:46:19 UTC
This has prob been said before but all you people freaking out about not needing Battleship 5 for capitals are forgetting that just cause you can sit in a ship does not mean you can actually use it. Also new pilots are prob not going to be able to be replacing capitals if they decide to hap-hazardously just get into them as fast as they can. I sense more dead capitals on the horizon and more industrial corps profiting from pilots flying ships they are not skilled enough to handle properly.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#970 - 2012-03-07 03:46:22 UTC
Silath Slyver Silverpine wrote:
Why?

You're training completely different ships for each race. Different radar types. Different propulsion. Different armor and shield systems.

Look at it like this; just because a pilot is trained to fly an F-22 doesn't mean he's going to be able to fly a MiG-35.
Yeah, they're both fighter jets. They both use a flightstick. That's about where the similarities end.


Alright then, refund the skills in the same fashion as the learning skills and have the poor, poor vets make a choice regarding which racial battlecruiser skill they still want at 5.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#971 - 2012-03-07 03:46:31 UTC
Andski wrote:
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:
Again, **** this **** and how did you get it past the CSM?


That's the thing, the CSM was apparently left out of the loop on this one. CCP isn't obligated to run anything by them, but it's certainly to their benefit if they do and don't want massive threadnaughts.


I'll go along with you completely on that one.

They missed a few key points with this opening Dev Blog that really needed to be explained better, and the CSM would probably have caught that.

That being said, the concept has already been discussed with the CSM in part before this Blog and they seem to have been generally in favor... but they sure could have helped fill in the gaps on the presentation.

Of course, they did make a point of saying that they would flesh out their proposal more completely in following blogs. and the that the details and ramifications of the basic idea were what needed to be discussed by the community now.

While we may disagree on many points, I "do" think your point of view is valuable and needed to be outlined here.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Gevlin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#972 - 2012-03-07 03:46:42 UTC
Go for it!!

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships
Degren
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#973 - 2012-03-07 03:47:38 UTC
Still amused that the idea to keep destroyers and battlecruisers in the "progression line" as seperate skills made it past a board meeting.

Sounds like you intend to buff the other useless ships, then battlecruisers and especially destroyers as a "tier" will look pretty foolish.

All. You. Are. Doing. Is. *******. New. Players. Who. May. Need. To. Cross. Train. For. A. Corp/Alliance.

Hello, hello again.
Silath Slyver Silverpine
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#974 - 2012-03-07 03:53:17 UTC
Andski wrote:

Alright then, refund the skills in the same fashion as the learning skills and have the poor, poor vets make a choice regarding which racial battlecruiser skill they still want at 5.


Sounds good. I don't see why anyone should be getting skill points they never invested the time to train for.

"But when I trained BC it let me fly ALL the racial BC's!!!!"
Cool story bro. Doesn't change the fact that you only spent the time training one BC skill.
You are not losing out on any skill points or training time with the new system.
Smoke Adian
#975 - 2012-03-07 03:53:21 UTC
I would suggest dropping the whole roles classification thing. Yes, rebalance the useless ships like the ferox, but the roles thing is just dumb. For example you've got the caracal, drake, and raven in the same category when the only thing they have in common is their caldari origin.

As far as Drakes go, you've got HAM Drakes, MWD Drakes, AB Drakes, Spider tanking drakes, PVE Drakes in various forms and the list goes on and on. You can't just say "oh that's a bombardment ship" especially when the one thing Drakes are not known for is their DPS.

Then you've got the Raven in there which really has nothing to do with drake - it's a pve boat that occasionally gets used for smartbombing.

Finally, the Caracal which has nothing to do with either of the other two. It's a cheap pve starter boat or throw away pvp support for new players

i.e. Just buff the known crappy ships and don't try tp reorganize all of EVE's ships into silly categories.
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#976 - 2012-03-07 03:53:45 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Grey Stormshadow wrote:
Moraguth wrote:
Grey Stormshadow wrote:
Harrigan VonStudly wrote:
Just so I have this right.

There are many who think that it is ok to have to retrain what has already been planned, bought, and time spent training because we will be given the isk back and sp needed to retrain what we've already spec'd out and trained ALREADY ?

So you're ok with big brother (CCP) taking what you have already earned and making you do it over again because it's, well, only a little bit of time? Am I reading right?


As the choises are here I am thinking that option one is least bad choice. So yes.

Obviously if they do it right, big part of entire spaceship command skilltree will be reimbursed and most likely some no longer needed skills can be used to compensate towards the 3 new factions. Even without those there should be enough points to get all destro and bc skills up to level 4 if original skill was capped. This means that you can fly all factions tech 1 variants but not necessarily tech 2.

This skill reimbursement part of this plan is really something where you just have to pick the least bad option and live with it. Personally I don't see this a reason why entire plan should be cancelled as there is plenty of potential for good stuff when discussed and implemented properly.


Grey, I have two things to tell you. First off, the word you're looking for is choices, not choises. I noticed it the first time you used it a few pages ago, but since you did it twice, it obviously needs to be brought to your attention.
Secondly, go back to the first page and read the posts there please. You are spreading speculation that is completely contrary to what the DEVs have said.

Thanks!


Thank you for reminding me that engrish is not my native language....

...and yes I am well aware that they have said that people will continue to be able to fly same ships they have been able before. However I am not so sure how they will keep this promise without donating 4x more skill points to those with higher BC/Destro skills than to those who don't have them capped. Also the fact that training towards those would take 4x longer after the change gives me full right to speculate with the promise they made.

I have no issue believing it as the only thing I'll really be gaining is higher clone costs. 4x more SP, if specifically allocated into the newly separated skills provides no benefit to the receiver. It's really the only way to keep their promise if that promise includes command ships and interdictors.

I wish it would be this simple. Those skill points are still at your character, increase your characters value and may be reusable some point in the future. Also the fact that after the change new player needs 4 times more training time to get into the point where you are already,,, This is really unfair and goes to wrong direction really.

I am not saying what CCP has to do here - just trying to raise related stuff up for discussion and to be notified when decisions are being made.

Get classic forum style - custom videos to captains quarters screen

Play with the best - die like the rest
Grady Eltoren
Hogyoku
#977 - 2012-03-07 03:54:24 UTC
STILL GOING>>>>>>>>

"Nothing outlasts the whiner-gizers. They keep going and going and going....."

Up to page 50 almost!

LOLZ I TOLD YOU GUYS THIS WOULD BE AN EPIC WHINER's THREAD on PAGE 7 :) hehe


I have to flame all the people here with a really poor comprehension in reading. That is the only thing I can think of that explains the amount of tears and internet nerd rage in this thread.


Anyways - MOVING ON.

CCP: I saw someone mention going the opposite route turning cruisers, and BS etc etc into generic and making RACIAL Spaceship command skills instead....that would be interesting.

Something to think about.

ALSO - look at T3 skills - they seem cumbersome as well. If you are going to fix the others - look at this too.

ALSO - I don't agree with you CCP Soundwave when you said "If you can fly it today you will fly it in the future" All this does is cave TOO MUCH to the whiners. Let them train all 4 racial BC's up to 5 again. Reimburse them their skill points and let them decide. If you want to be nice then do something different and reimburse all spaceship command skillpoints besides ORE and let them respec to the race(S) they like best and have the SP to do so. IF you then LOWER the skill points necessary to train the new RACIAL BC to 5 and RACIAL Destroyer to 5 then that will appease 95% of the whiners out there.

P.S. I think Racial BS to 4 might be too easy for cap ships...but maybe not. Needs further discussion.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#978 - 2012-03-07 03:55:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Degren wrote:
Still amused that the idea to keep destroyers and battlecruisers in the "progression line" as seperate skills made it past a board meeting.

Sounds like you intend to buff the other useless ships, then battlecruisers and especially destroyers as a "tier" will look pretty foolish.

All. You. Are. Doing. Is. *******. New. Players. Who. May. Need. To. Cross. Train. For. A. Corp/Alliance.


No, that is not all they are doing... far from it. There are many other benefits to streamlining the training path, but those have been outlined pretty completely earlier in the thread.

However, what you are saying is true, it does make it more difficult to cross train in those two specific classes of ship.

I suppose this part of the debate boils down to whether you believe it should be easy to cross train or not... and if so does it make many of the choices you've made up until that point, well, fairly pointless.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
#979 - 2012-03-07 03:57:59 UTC
Silath Slyver Silverpine wrote:
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:
WHAT THE **** IS THIS ****???
Any _SANE_ revamp would have aimed at making it easier to crosstrain, having base ship type skills with race-specific specialization.


Why?

You're training completely different ships for each race. Different radar types. Different propulsion. Different armor and shield systems.

Look at it like this; just because a pilot is trained to fly an F-22 doesn't mean he's going to be able to fly a MiG-35.
Yeah, they're both fighter jets. They both use a flightstick. That's about where the similarities end.

Yes, and that is why you would need the racial specialization skills.

However someone flying an F-22 trying a MiG-35 would be much more skilled than someone flying a 787 trying out a MiG-35.

Nyan
Benjamin Hamburg
Chaos.Theory
#980 - 2012-03-07 03:58:09 UTC
I welcome this news arm wide open. Make sure that we stay operational with our ships tough. I don't want to know what will happen if 75% of our fleet find a message ''Miss required skills'' when trying to board their ship for a home def the day after the patch.

Removing Tier is also a great idea only if it's followed by concrete upgrade of lower tier ships. Newbie SHOULD be usefull in a Thorax or a Caracal if they can fly anything better than that. Just be creative and people will maybe enjoyed again flying other T1 cruiser instead of shinny Cynabal/Vagabond.