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-1 for noobs that did not trained any valuable skill besides the ones used to rat or plex. I have been training for combat for 5,5 years and I think I have the right to complain. So a lot of other vets have. This is nothing else than add game time to spend to the gamers without adding any extra content.

I believe that reimbursement of skills comes into play for something trained unneccessarily, like perhaps BS 5 for some (if they wish).

The simple solution, to fulfil what we have been explicitly told, will simply be to give you the same level in all racial destroyer and BC skills as you currently have in the non race specific skill.

First, I do like the idea behind the stuff presented in the dev blog.

So, training ship skills ...

CCP Point of view
- Spaceship Command ... (nearly) all you need to know about flying a spaceship
- Advanced Spaceship Command ... filling up the gaps
- Racial Ship skills (frigate, destroyer, cruiser, ...)

Real life:
- car driving licence ... one for valid for all kinds of cars, no matter which "country" tag they have
- lorry drifing licence ...

- left hand drive experience
- right hand drive experience

So, in real life cross training (licences) are not necessary but mostly you'll have more experience with either left or right hand driving.

From my point of view, the ship size skills correspond to the driving licences while racial handling skills could correspond to the experience (left or right hand drive).

This way the skills would be more "natural", cross-training would be easier, and you wouldn't have to introduce a **** load of new skills each time you come up with something new.

Strategic Cruisers and Subsystems skills were a good example, besides having the racial strategic cruisers skill.

However, you are the ones developing the game, we players will either contiune playing or leave, but I ask you to go the whole way, if you want to rework ship skills, not just half the way as you proposed in the dev blog.

edit: I like the ****

I agree that the end of the curren Tier system is a good thing however CCP should really think twice about tweaking the skills as proposed. (Side note, are Cyclone, Ferox, Prophey, and Brutix going to have a spike in mineral costs to build?)



Suposedly CCP wants to encourage players for pew pew, but this change would only speed up capitals in that regard.
(Getting people into covetors a bit faster isn't a bad thing though either on the industrial front.)

Why would you take the Destroyers and the BCs, which are the most adaptive classes for testing out other races hardware and wreck it? If this is being done for the proposed purpose of skill standardization, why not take the revese approach and consolidate the rest of the racial ship skills instead? (Yes it would cheapen the game.)

The Destroyers and the BCs always made sense to be a generic skill since there weren't any true specialty roles. It was all combat, combat in different ways of course, but still all just combat. If CCP were to put in racial BC skills, it would be tolerable if they put in at the exact same time a new wave of BCs (and destroyers) that filled the gaps, ie a tech 1 BC ECM ship that fits between blackbird and scorpion.

However, this in turn really cheapens the purpose and the nature of the T2 ships, which have mostly been filling this role for the combat support side to date.

If CCP plans to simply put in additional combat ships, then I would say dont bother adjusting the skills at all. (Please do put the combat ships in though.) If the new ships provide other values besides direct damage in combat, then only at that point should racial skills realistically be considered, and even then only after careful weighing against impacts on T2 ships.

I havnt seen any mention that you will get all races BC to 5 if you have BC 5 already.

Cyprus, that appears to be exactly what they are proposing, giving you level 5 in all the racial variants (if you already have level 5 in Destroyers or BC).

Now that the issue of skillpoint reimbursement has been resolved with CCP promising not to screw us out of our ships, I am not as opposed to this change as I was before, but I still think it is going the wrong way. As a small to med (10 to 50 pilot) gang FC, I feel obligated to say that CCP's listed examples are horrible. If CCP changes the ship stats to allow for them to function properly in the roles they're saying, we're going to end up with MASSIVE changes being necessary to certain ships, and those changes will result in a whole new breed of pwn mobile. The best example I have is the megathron, if it becomes mobile enough to be a main battleship, it will be incredibly powerful.

If CCP wants to change ships and create new roles, they need to abolish the tier system, but they don't need to replace it with a bunch of new pseudo titles that require entire reworks of dozens of ships. They need to tap the minds of some of our best FCs, DBRB, Shadoo, Lucian James, are names that come to mind and see what they have to say about the current state of things and then go from there. I say this because the ideas CCP is presenting today are crap.

I personally have no problem with the notion of racial Destroyer/Battlecruiser skills, however, any transition is going to cause pain for one group or the other.

Take a pilot with level 5 in all subcap skills,
Option 1 gives him all the skills needed to keep flying his ships at the same level, which means he'll get a huge bump in skillpoints. However, the younger pilots without highly trained Dessy/BC skills will get less of a bonus and thus they will be negatively impacted by this scheme.

Option 2 simply reimbursing SP would leave him/her unable to fly ships, it will however be fairer to the younger pilots.

So, putting on my CSM hat I offer a Counter Proposal to the Skill Changes:
1 Keep Destroyers and Battlecruisers as a non-racial skill, so CCP doesn't need to poke at character skills
2 Make Destroyers 4 a pre-req for injecting racial cruiser skillbooks (not for flying ships)
3 Make Battlecruiser 4 a pre-req for injecting racial battleships skills (again, not necessarily for flying BS)
4 Modify all destroyers and battlecruisers to take bonuses from the two relevant skills:
Coercer 10% Bonus to Small Energy Turret Tracking Per Level Of Destroyer Skill, -10% reduction in energy turret capacitor usage per level of Amarr frigate
Brutix 5% Bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage per level of Gallente Cruiser, 7.5% bonus per level of Battlecruiser.


I do like the idea of the racial versions, but adding it at this stage will negatively impact the younger players more than the older players, CCP needs to keep the new blood in the game.

Ok this thread needs some love now.


SKILLS:

• Destroyer and Battlecruiser reimbursement: it has been said before, but allow us to repeat again, that we do not want to cut ships you can already fly. Thus, having BC skill at 5 would mean you get all four variations at 5.


• BS skill at IV for capitals: alright, there is good feedback on that. Point is to make the progression consistent by requiring a skill at 4 to train for the next, higher size class, and 5 for tech 2 ships. If we feel it becomes suddenly too easy to train for capitals, we can always compensate by adding that time back on one of the other, support skill prerequisites for them. Same reasoning applies for freighters. The point of this blog is to specifically discuss such matters before moving forward with them, and for this, you are welcome.

CONFUSING BLOG PICTURES:

• Confusion between the skill tree change and the ship tree charts: the skill change displays where we want to bring you in the long term future with the overhaul, while the ship tree chart display the current, in-game TQ ship tree. We will show the updated, long term ship trees in the next blogs when they have been fleshed out a bit.

CSM NOT INCLUDED?!:

• I will be honest by saying this is due to my own failure here, please do not blame CCP, or any other employee on that matter. I just plainly and simply forgot to include them in the feedback process; I know that sounds incredibly stupid, unbelievable or even naive, but you have to realize that between various work duties, procedures that have to be followed, internal meetings and reviews, random design emergencies, questions that pop-up from your team, plus being split into different projects that have to be finished in time, you are bound to forget things in the heat of the moment for being tremendously busy.

I will not attempt to justify myself however, this was a professional blunder on top of showing a serious lack of courtesy toward them as individuals, but also as elected representatives of the player base.

Yes, I do fully acknowledge the value they could have brought to this blog before it was released. Trust me, had I remembered about it, this would have been done as it would have saved a lot of confusion here .

That is why, not only as a CCP employee, but also as an individual, I would sincerely like to apologize to every and each member of the CSM I forgot to include here. CSM, feel free to smack me in the back of my head during Fanfest to remind me that being absent-minded has life threatening, rage inducing consequences that should be avoided at all costs.

We will keep monitoring this thread and post updates in the next days if there are more issues coming up.

Thank you CCP Ytterbium for clarifiing once and for all.