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New dev blog: Rebalancing EVE, one ship at a time

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My Neutral Toon
Doomheim
#561 - 2012-03-06 21:07:33 UTC  |  Edited by: My Neutral Toon
Ntrails wrote:
My Neutral Toon wrote:
So. According to the new skill tree, I can skip interceptors and dictors and jump straight to heavy dictor?

http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Amarrshiptree2_1920.jpg

how does that make sense?


Being able to fly a heavy dictor without ever flying a smaller tackle ships?


Its not all about Skill Book progression, but CCP should be taking PLAYER SKILL PROGRESSION into account here too...




Hictors fly nothing like any of the small tacklers you mentioned, you are ********




How are they so different from each other that the skill training should NOT be related? A Hictor is just a larer version of the Dictor. They are both tackle/bubble ships. Hictor being a destroyer class and Dictor being a cruiser class that has greater firepower/defenses


Im guessing calling someone out as being less intelligent and then giving no explanation makes you smarter somehow?

...Can't. Tell. If ...Troll? Or Serious....

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Ravcharas
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#562 - 2012-03-06 21:08:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Ravcharas
Raneru wrote:
I cant wait for the Eve Newsletter email that proudly tells me that in the upcoming exciting expansion I'll be able to fly 15 less ships! Lol

It has repeatedly been clarified that this will not happen.

Any new player starting out will get less bang per skillpoint though, having to skill BC four times over instead of just once. Which is too bad really because whenever someone who is new to the game asks me what they should skill I usually tell them BC for that very reason - a hull size that is welcome in many different kinds of fleets, from small roams to large sov fights and also relatively quick to skill into.

So yeah, Malcanis Law strikes again.
Sovai Elaaren
KABS Deep Recon Unit
#563 - 2012-03-06 21:08:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Sovai Elaaren
This is probably one of the best dev blogs I've read. I think this is a great way to address the multitude of useless or under-utilized ships in Eve. I think the addition of racial skills is great. It is still not going to take a terribly long time to cross-train to other races, but if you want to be *awesome* in all races (i.e. all racial BCV), then yes, you need to invest the time to become *awesome*.

Obviously it gets a bit trickier with those who already are *awesome*, but I'm confident that CCP will work out something fair.

I also think that the people in this thread sperging all over their keyboards in nerd rage need to chill out.

Edit: I'm not sure about reducing the requirement for capital ships to BS IV, though.
Swearte Widfarend
Ever Vigilant Fountain Defenders
#564 - 2012-03-06 21:09:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Swearte Widfarend
Not sure I've seen this as I'm working through the pages. As far as ship skill requirements, take advantage of what exists.

Tech 1 ships (and Pirate/Navy ships) require the appropriate Tier 1 skill (frigate/destroyer/cruiser/battlecruiser/battleship) and a matching skill in Spaceship Command, but not the class below it.

To train for a frigate, you much have Spaceship Command 1
To train for a destroyer, you must have Spaceship Command 2 (not Frigate 4)
To train for a cruiser, you must have Spaceship Command 3 (not Destroyer 4)
etc.

For Tier two ships, you must Train Advanced Spaceship Command (the cost of this skill should come down to around 10 million +/-) and it has a pre-requisite of Spaceship Command 4 (instead of 5), in addition you need a baseline of the Tier 1 ship class you want to fly.
Tier 2 Frigate skills require Advanced Spaceship Command 1 and Frigate 4
Tier 2 Destroyer skills require Advanced Spaceship Command 2 and Destroyer 4
etc.

Then for the ship bonuses, map the bonuses based on the source ship type. So (for example) the Enyo:

Gallente Frigate Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret Damage per level

Assault Ships Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret Optimal Range per level
7.5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret Tracking Speed per level

If you only train Frigate to 4, you can still train into an Enyo, but you get less bonus to damage than someone who trains it to 5. WIth this model the skills and bonuses actually map with variation depending on skills. Of course this doesn't change anything for vets, but new players could get into an assault frigate faster but not fly it as well as someone who min/maxes the skills - providing new shiny ships in a variety of ways.

This also provides better use and balance of a 5-level skill (advanced spaceship command) that currently only has 3 useful levels (1, 4, 5)

Democracy is only as good as the despot managing the voting booth.
VaL Iscariot
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#565 - 2012-03-06 21:09:49 UTC
Thanks for dumbing the game down, CCP. You guys pull that **** with Capitals, Command Ships, and Battlecruisers, I'm done. I'm not spending four months training up all the battlecruisers to 5 and I really don't appreciate you 'streamlining' this game so a bunch of new fags can understand it better. Kick them in the ass and tell them to read a mother ******* book and stop giving away hand outs. Battleship V should be a requirement to fly a ******* capital ship. Comparing that to the progression to a Hulk places high in my top 5 boneheaded things CCP has said.

You should be making this game harder, not easier. Think about that before you **** everything up... again.
E man Industries
SeaChell Productions
#566 - 2012-03-06 21:10:21 UTC
I really like that rather than one tier sucking and we all use the other one that there would be ship lines.
Having a faster hull does nto mean it is weaker just diffrent. be really cool if this matched the sub faction lines...
Say brutor ships or bruto hulls tend to be more ganky where as thucker tend to be faster.

Shame all that is lost amungst all these pansies whining because they may have to train up a racial battle cruiser skill like we should have had to originally.
E man Industries
SeaChell Productions
#567 - 2012-03-06 21:11:39 UTC  |  Edited by: E man Industries
VaL Iscariot wrote:
Thanks for dumbing the game down, CCP. You guys pull that **** with Capitals, Command Ships, and Battlecruisers, I'm done. I'm not spending four months training up all the battlecruisers to 5 and I really don't appreciate you 'streamlining' this game so a bunch of new fags can understand it better. Kick them in the ass and tell them to read a mother ******* book and stop giving away hand outs. Battleship V should be a requirement to fly a ******* capital ship. Comparing that to the progression to a Hulk places high in my top 5 boneheaded things CCP has said.

You should be making this game harder, not easier. Think about that before you **** everything up... again.

hahaha dumbing down=more skills and needing to chose a faction to specialize.

oh noooooes having to speciallise is a races battle cruiser like any other ship in the game....what ever shall i do..

Really HTFU....
Gynoceros
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#568 - 2012-03-06 21:11:53 UTC
Svennig wrote:
Gynoceros wrote:
Most people here seem to be focusing on what skill reimbursement strategy CCP will be taking in response to this change. I'm not too concerned about that. I see no reason to believe that we will not be well compensated for our existing skill investment.

There is a much bigger problem with this change: the amount of training required to fly each race's T1 ship line dramatically increases.

Currently, the total amount of training required to get each race's T1 ship skills to V is 17x.

2x (faction frigate) + 0.5x (destroyers / 4 factions) + 5x (faction cruiser) + 1.5x (battlecruisers / 4 factions) + 8x (faction battleship)

Under the new proposal, training for that same ship line jumps to 23x.

2x (faction frigate) + 2x (faction destroyer) + 5x (faction cruiser) + 6x (faction battlecruiser) + 8x (faction battleship)

(More accurately, training a single faction takes the same time for each, but training each additional race adds the equivalent of an 8x skill to the requirement.)

As a result, the amount of training required to fly all races' T1 ships has increased by the equivalent of 4 Battlecruiser skills! That's unacceptable. Making players grind much more time to fly T1 ships is a bad thing for the game. It punishes both newer players and players who want to cross-train into a new race. I understand why you are making the changes and I support streamlining and simplifying the skill requirements, but you have to consider the rather massive amount of additional SP required by the players to fly the most basic ships under the new proposal.

There's a simple solution to the problem: reduce the training time for each T1 ship skill.

Faction Frigate (1x)
Faction Destroyer (2x)
Faction Cruiser (4x)
Faction Battlecruiser (5x)
Faction Battleship (7x)

That's a total of 18x, only a single 1x skill's worth of additional SP required per faction as the result of a few minor skill adjustments.

Benefits:

  1. Only a very minor increase in T1 ship skill requirements per faction
  2. Actually reduces skill requirements for Frigate -> Cruiser over the current skill tree, which empowers new players.
  3. Minimizes frustration for older players.
  4. Minimizes skill reimbursement amounts. Even the most generous reimbursement under this plan would require only one 4x skill's worth of SP.


This is interesting. It makes frigate V for newbs easy (too easy?) but is an interesting idea.


You are in Dreddit. Don't you want more newbs in Frigates? Pirate

The faction frigate skills are used for the most basic ships in the game, so I think it makes sense to change them to rank one. Plus it gives new players a sense of accomplishment to move up the Frigate -> Cruiser skill chain even faster while still keeping the overall skill requirements pretty much the same.
Alara IonStorm
#569 - 2012-03-06 21:12:07 UTC
E man Industries wrote:
I really like that rather than one tier sucking and we all use the other one that there would be ship lines.
Having a faster hull does nto mean it is weaker just diffrent. be really cool if this matched the sub faction lines...
Say brutor ships or bruto hulls tend to be more ganky where as thucker tend to be faster.

Shame all that is lost amungst all these pansies whining because they may have to train up a racial battle cruiser skill like we should have had to originally.

Big smile
The Economist
Logically Consistent
#570 - 2012-03-06 21:12:25 UTC
Val Vherosan wrote:

But the real question is if this is really, really the best you can do CCP? While the player base is screaming for the next Apocrypha do you honestly think this is the best way to spend your precious development time?


Wondering that myself.

There are only a limited number of teams with a limited amount of devs and their time is precious; we understand that different people have different areas of expertise and that not everyone can balance ships, or work on lag, or fiddle with the engine etc....but is this really the best way a portion of that valuable time can be invested?

Are you running so short on things to do that you need to make more work for yourselves, and not just more work, but something that's going to wind up being a big headache and require a needlessly complex fix to maintain the status quo for little to no actual payoff? Is the tier system really the only, or at least main, thing that caused AF balancing, for example, to take so long?
Messilina
People's Front of Matar
#571 - 2012-03-06 21:12:57 UTC
VaL Iscariot wrote:
Thanks for dumbing the game down, CCP. You guys pull that **** with Capitals, Command Ships, and Battlecruisers, I'm done. I'm not spending four months training up all the battlecruisers to 5 and I really don't appreciate you 'streamlining' this game so a bunch of new fags can understand it better. Kick them in the ass and tell them to read a mother ******* book and stop giving away hand outs. Battleship V should be a requirement to fly a ******* capital ship. Comparing that to the progression to a Hulk places high in my top 5 boneheaded things CCP has said.

You should be making this game harder, not easier. Think about that before you **** everything up... again.


Agreed. It becomes ever more obvious that the devs don't play eve, or at least they don't pvp, which is just as damning.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#572 - 2012-03-06 21:13:17 UTC
Raneru wrote:
I cant wait for the Eve Newsletter email that proudly tells me that in the upcoming exciting expansion I'll be able to fly 15 less ships! Lol


Well, I guess if you'd rather not have all the free skills given to you for some reason....

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Mitauchi
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#573 - 2012-03-06 21:13:34 UTC
Just curious what incentive do new players have to train BC5 of each race when before these changes it seems T3s are being used more as boosters than command ships. If these changes go through I think you will see command ships used even less. I recommend you change slot layouts on ships before you change all the skills to get into them. Just my opinion.
Tinkietoo
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#574 - 2012-03-06 21:14:13 UTC
Kingwood wrote:
The proposed changes remind me of World of Warcraft - being forced down a class route with little to no deviation. So yeah, rethink this, because it won't work the way you imagine it will work out.


This! If you screw this one up CCP, while trying to fix something that wasn't broken, you're going to lose the good will of the player base that you've only just started to regain.

And you sure are giving yourselves a heck of lot of rope to hang yourselves with...
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#575 - 2012-03-06 21:14:56 UTC
Messilina wrote:
VaL Iscariot wrote:
Thanks for dumbing the game down, CCP. You guys pull that **** with Capitals, Command Ships, and Battlecruisers, I'm done. I'm not spending four months training up all the battlecruisers to 5 and I really don't appreciate you 'streamlining' this game so a bunch of new fags can understand it better. Kick them in the ass and tell them to read a mother ******* book and stop giving away hand outs. Battleship V should be a requirement to fly a ******* capital ship. Comparing that to the progression to a Hulk places high in my top 5 boneheaded things CCP has said.

You should be making this game harder, not easier. Think about that before you **** everything up... again.


Agreed. It becomes ever more obvious that the devs don't play eve, or at least they don't pvp, which is just as damning.


All that is obvious is that you two have serious reading comprehension issues.

"If you can fly it today, you'll be able to fly it tomorrow."

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Aya Chelien
#576 - 2012-03-06 21:15:25 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:


No one is saying you have to retrain them. Our principle for the reimbursement here will be "if you could fly it yesterday, you can still fly it today". Ytterbium will post the further details of this once it's written up.




Oh, sweet. My biggest concern when I read this was getting locked out of my Hurricane. It's the only combat ship I can fly decently. But since that's not an issue, I'm on board.
Butzewutze
Doomheim
#577 - 2012-03-06 21:16:08 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Smoking Blunts wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
The skill requirement changes for destroyers and battlecruisers is very tricky to tackle indeed. We fully acknowledge having to re-train for ships you can already fly is not appealing at all.

As said in the blog, nothing is set in stone yet, we are considering various reimbursement options as this is still quite a high level change.



it not just not appealing its crazy.

pre patch i can fly all cs's and all dic's. post patch im ******. i either pick to fly a claymore or damnation or a vulture (eos is **** anyhow) and then im screwed for the next 80 odd days retraining for ships i could already fly.

you either reduce the ranks of the destroyer and bc skills so reimbursed skill points from the old cover all 4 races, or you just give people all 4 races.




We'll find a suitable reimbursement that makes everyone happy. I'm not terribly fussed about giving away a little extra if it moves we move the ship progression system into a better place.


Yeah, how generous of you to give us the "little extra" back from what we allready have. I dont know how everybody else thinks about this. But this looks like a "crosstrain"-nerf to me. After that patch it will take more time to see all the different ships in eve as before. Im sure ccp is gonna like this.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#578 - 2012-03-06 21:16:12 UTC
Messilina wrote:
VaL Iscariot wrote:
Thanks for dumbing the game down, CCP. You guys pull that **** with Capitals, Command Ships, and Battlecruisers, I'm done. I'm not spending four months training up all the battlecruisers to 5 and I really don't appreciate you 'streamlining' this game so a bunch of new fags can understand it better. Kick them in the ass and tell them to read a mother ******* book and stop giving away hand outs. Battleship V should be a requirement to fly a ******* capital ship. Comparing that to the progression to a Hulk places high in my top 5 boneheaded things CCP has said.

You should be making this game harder, not easier. Think about that before you **** everything up... again.


Agreed. It becomes ever more obvious that the devs don't play eve, or at least they don't pvp, which is just as damning.


What the heck? No dude, Tiericide is proof positive that they DO play and PVP.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Knug LiDi
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#579 - 2012-03-06 21:17:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Knug LiDi
Despite the howling wind about SP and BC 5, for me the single most important thing I saw in the blog was the image showing t1 (tech one) ships in the centre at the bottom with navy the pirate ships showing increasing improvement. T2 on the right showing increasing specialization and t3 on the left showing increasing flexibility

BUT OF CRITICAL IMPORTANCE was T2 being higher in "improvement" than T3

T2 ships are optimized for a single role - a T3 ship, being more flexible can do many things, and all those things better than t1 and possibly Navy ships. But they are not supposed to be "improved" enough to do T2 roles better than T2 ships

T2 logistic ships should be better than T3 ships in that role (repping)

T2 field command ships should be better than T3 ships in this role (brawling)

T2 fleet command ships should be better than T3 ships in that role (boosting)

A cov ops (scanner not stealth bomber) should be a better probing/scanning ship than a T3

Similarly for other T2 roles.

I look forward to seeing the changes that bring T3 ships below T2 ships, for that specific t2 role.

If only we could fall into a woman's arms

without falling into her hands
mechtech
Ice Liberation Army
#580 - 2012-03-06 21:18:15 UTC
This is awesome! Eve is almost 10 years old, I'm glad that you guys are finally going back and looking at core systems in order to make a more cohesive game. Right now Eve feels a bit disjointed, like some of the pieces (and ships) are kind of "glued" in.

I also hope you guys go back and do a difficulty overhaul. Lvl4 missions are a joke now that we have T3/rigs, incursions are an isk waterfall, cheap ships have no purpose because you can afford the loss of an insured BS in about an hour of playtime. Isk has devalued by at least 10x since I started playing (albeit it was in '05), and I feel as this continues to worsen, the game becomes less dynamic because so many cheaper options are simply obsolete in the face of ever increasing wallet sizes.

Keep it up! Refactoring the core system without making the game easier, that's what I hope to keep seeing!