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Putting the D back into Democracy
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Tiger Would
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-02-15 11:08:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiger Would
Upcoming days, i will be using this thread to oultine how the CSM processes can be shaped so a broader range of players can take part in CSM processes.

I will be updating this thread throughout the CSM 7 elections.



The initial Campaign message can be found here:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=66277&find=unread


Chapters:

First Chapter: Putting the D back into Democracy

Second Chapter: Carrots on a stick

Once you think you have it all, you have actually become ignorant towards everything else.

T. Would
Tiger Would
Doomheim
#2 - 2012-02-15 11:08:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiger Would
Putting the D back into Democracy

By now you should have a pretty good idea about my agenda in regards to the CSM.
If you did somehow miss it, just follow the link in OP of this thread. There are a few issues that need to be addressed. I realize it is not as cool as some others, who talk about explosions and stuff, but everything they say is about what they care about most within the game EvE online and certainly not what the majority of the player base wants.

I am running for CSM with an alt, not only to protect my main corporation. It also should show it is not important what character I use, it is about the person behind the character. The person behind the character should be able to cash in on the function CSM suppose too have, linking the player base to CCP and vice versa and just be the mechanism and nothing else. The alt also emphasizes, i have no face, I don’t need a face or opinion, since I am just the mechanic linking you guys to CCP and vice versa. I am supposed to be blank. I am suppose too have the competences to bring order in chaos (getting the essence out of the issues raised, present them to you if I got it right and get you in touch with CCP…..and vice versa.)

The CSM’s job should be to get the player base involved, be a portal for CCP to be handed ideas in a structured form which originate daily from the player base. At the same time a CSM’s function should be about a way for CCP to have someone organizing the flow of information, gathering the thoughts of the player base and inform the player base in turn of the outcome.
A CSM should not have his or her ideas be the filter within this process. Rather guide, structure the information stream, instead of voicing an opinion that should represent the entire player base but does not because of this filter (call it ego). We have all seen what it can lead to.

There are some CSM’s currently who do this by the best of their knowledge and capabilities within the current construct for the CSM processes. But many people feel there are also CSM’s that do not seem to have any intentions on leaving out there opinion and rather use the process to gain an advantage within the game EvE online. This makes people not being bothered with CSM elections. It makes people not getting involved. The number of people actually putting in a vote the last elections shows this to be true.

I have spoken with many people now, who , after readin my campaign message, started a conversation with me expressing these concerns. They feel they would absolutely love it if they would see a candidate trying to help them and trying to help CCP and not themselves. They would actually get involved if they felt there was a candidate who will push for this CSM revamp where democracy means something and their voice will actually be heard. They found my approach refreshing and they are the majority.

So, how exactly would I like to restructure the CSM processes?

Well, the processes in itself are not the problem as such, they could and probably should be polished a bit when the changes are made that I will be suggesting (pushing for).The problem lies with the people using the processes. I think my role would be best described as a portal. I would dissect the ideas & suggestions forum for example, looking for ideas the player base has that keep coming back and has many people responding to them. I would than start a thread consolidating the particular issue raised.

After a lot of feedback has been received I would than get in touch with CCP about it. I would try to set a date for an online roundtable with some of the CCP Dev’s. I would than start inviting people who have brought a lot of detail to the discussion regarding the issue raised, to sit at this online roundtable. I would than make notes and work them out to publish them later, but it would be you who would be doing the talking, not me! This way, a broader range of people from the player base get to speak with the Dev’s and will be heard without my ego filtering your ideas.

At the same time, I would be listening to CCP, taking the issues they would like to see addressed. I would again talk to you, the player base, to discuss this. Once we found common grounds, structured the discussed issue to provide feedback to CCP, another online roundtable with the players that showed an interest in the subject with the CCP Dev’s would then be organized. Again letting you do the talking to prevent me from being a filter.

To give you an example:

Not too long ago i came across this particular thread by a guy called Mors Sanctitatis:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=59357

It is about making the mining profession interesting again. I would definitely look this person up and start discussing the matter. Than get more people into that discussion. Once the idea has been worked out together with you guys, I would organize the online round table so this person has a chance to discuss it with the developers.
Of course this is a crude outlined example and it needs polishing for sure, not to mention feedback from CCP in regards of them wanting this kind of change. But if I understood the last meetings minutes properly, they are very interested in new ideas on how to organize the CSM!

In the next reserved section I will be talking about another thing I would press for. Expect it to be up by Saturday. In advance I can say it will be about my focus on getting new subscribers to stay involved and not leave the game because it is virtually impossible to see you actually can become anything you want within EvE. It will also discuss how the game needs more carrots on a stick at strategic points within the game, so people get a sense of evolving and getting closer to ambitions they might have….stay tuned!

Once you think you have it all, you have actually become ignorant towards everything else.

T. Would
Tiger Would
Doomheim
#3 - 2012-02-15 11:08:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiger Would
Carrots on a stick

Although realizing EvE Online is a sandbox game, EvE Online is also no stranger to PvE content. That said; let us have a look at carrots on a stick. They seem to be either missing, the pole is too long or the previous horse already ate the carrot. Although this is partly through one’s own perception, it is how EvE online is generally perceived from a new player point of view.

And it is not just new players either. On the way to achieve your ambitions, whatever they might be, there are many points n time where you wonder if you are progressing at all. In the previous “chapter” I have already touched the subject on how ideas and feedback can be extracted from a broader spectrum of the player base. As an example I took an idea from a player called Mors Sanctitatis.

It is not just An idea that would be discussed at a roundtable. It also has the potential to fulfill the “carrot on a stick” function. I will again take this this idea of Mors Sanctitatis to show what I mean by a “carrot on a stick”. This however can be applied to many other parts of the game, for example bounty hunting, sovereignty etc.

The carrot on a stick within the idea from Mors Sanctitatis about mining:
Mors suggests a few things in this thread:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=59357
Mors is talking about a mechanic which would allow you to strike it rich. He suggests that a chance, however small, should exist where you can find "super-ultra-mega-compressed-hyper-density-quantum-tritanium", as he called it. The carrot on a stick in this part could be, The better your mining level and processing levels, the higher the chances are you will strike it rich in this regard (example: going from 1% to 5%. Also, Mors says, and I agree, striking it rich would stand out in a player’s memory.

Mors is also talking about asteroid fields being much bigger but 95% (as example) of the ore resides in only 5% of the asteroids (as example). Applying the “carrot on a stick” thought here could mean there are different asteroid belts in regards to the above mentioned percentages. (A 95/5%, a 90/10%, up to 50/50%) Mors is also talking about you will need to scan down these belts. This brings me to the point where I would say, higher skills means finding better belts through scanning.

Mors is also talking about spin rates of asteroids being tied to density of minerals within the asteroid and colored flecks to be able to see what kind of minerals can be had from the asteroid. Mors talked about this as a prevention of mining bots and as a means to make mining more interesting. It inherently has the carrot on a stick within it as it will take time for a player to notice the differences in spin rate as well as knowing which colors are connected to which minerals.

Now that you see what I meant by “carrot on a stick” on strategic times within EvE Online let us summarize:
So I will be searching the player forums to pick up on ideas or feedback in regards to game mechanics that keep coming up.
I will than consolidate the most detailed posts (and most realistic, technically speaking), and discuss it with the player base in order to obtain the essence.
The idea will need to meet the following criteria:
Will it be technically possible?
Does it make sense in EvE Online?
Does it add a carrot on a stick? (Optional)
Impact analysis

I will plan an online roundtable with CCP Dev.’s and invite the people who put in the larger part of the particular idea discussed and have helped shaping it to fit within EvE Online.

At that point I would only be taking notes and publishing them, providing CCP’s feedback to the players. Players would be the ones discussing the matter.

I hope you all now see how I would like to change the CSM processes. It is not about the processes in itself, it is more about the input and output part of these CSM processes that I like to change. The reason I am also looking for carrots on a stick, is to improve the player experience in regards to the feel of progression. This in turn would help new subscriptions, long term involvement, and goals becoming visibly obtainable which is a carrot on a stick in itself and perhaps the most important one missing.

If there are any questions, do not hesitate to ask n this thread, or send me an eve-mail.

Fly Safe! And do not forget to vote for Tiger Would.

Once you think you have it all, you have actually become ignorant towards everything else.

T. Would
Tiger Would
Doomheim
#4 - 2012-02-15 11:09:00 UTC
reserved

Once you think you have it all, you have actually become ignorant towards everything else.

T. Would
Tiger Would
Doomheim
#5 - 2012-02-15 11:09:10 UTC
reserved

Once you think you have it all, you have actually become ignorant towards everything else.

T. Would
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-02-15 11:10:46 UTC
you should consider running with your main

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Tiger Would
Doomheim
#7 - 2012-02-15 11:19:39 UTC
Andski wrote:
you should consider running with your main


I see what you mean, do not get me wrong.

I realise i am not mnaking it easy for myself running with an alt.
There are a few reasons ofcourse one of which is to protect the maincorporation and members within.

But, an other thing is, part of my campaign will also show that a CSM is not about the pixel pirate character, but about the person behind the character.

A CSM's job is to bridge the gap between the playerbase and CCP without having a face himself, sorta speak.
(Atleast that is how i see things)

But yes, you have a point, i am not making it easy for myself and this might very well not work out because of it.

Once you think you have it all, you have actually become ignorant towards everything else.

T. Would
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#8 - 2012-02-15 11:27:29 UTC
How can you expect the CSM process to change if you cant even take yourself seriously? Suppose protecting corp members is alright, but just sounds like you have already chosen what is more important.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Tiger Would
Doomheim
#9 - 2012-02-15 11:32:14 UTC
rodyas wrote:
How can you expect the CSM process to change if you cant even take yourself seriously? Suppose protecting corp members is alright, but just sounds like you have already chosen what is more important.


Yes the playerbase as a whole is more important and to be taken seriously.
Nobody should care what i think personally, they should just use me as their portal.

At the same time CCP should use me to gather around the playerbase and become involved.


I do not know what this has to do with me not taking myself seriously if that would be the case.

Once you think you have it all, you have actually become ignorant towards everything else.

T. Would
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#10 - 2012-02-15 11:42:17 UTC  |  Edited by: rodyas
Use more disney quotes.

Single we are just one small ant, together we are a hill of ants.
When you wish upon a star, your dreams come true.
We are all gonna be a real CSM
Whistle while you work making CCP listen to us.
Circle of life, of people daydreaming too much, and so CCP doesnt listen to them.

If you ever do meet CCP the only thing you should tell them, is your too afraid to do anything with your corp, cause everyone will make fun of them, that and you have dreams of being used as a portal. Might be a hit for lonely people at fanfest.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-02-15 11:51:22 UTC
It would be nice if the system was fair and all all player wishes where represented and not just those of null sec dwellers because the way it's going now, we'll have one group controlling the entire CSM in the near future.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Di Mulle
#12 - 2012-02-15 13:00:34 UTC
reserved
<<Insert some waste of screen space here>>
Johnny Marzetti
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2012-02-15 13:02:00 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
It would be nice if the system was fair and all all player wishes where represented and not just those of null sec dwellers because the way it's going now, we'll have one group controlling the entire CSM in the near future.


You're saying a system that doesn't hand you a candidate that people can unite behind on a silver platter without any serious effort besides making a forum post isn't fair?

I don't know what to tell you.
Tiger Would
Doomheim
#14 - 2012-02-15 13:05:16 UTC
rodyas wrote:
Use more disney quotes.

Single we are just one small ant, together we are a hill of ants.
When you wish upon a star, your dreams come true.
We are all gonna be a real CSM
Whistle while you work making CCP listen to us.
Circle of life, of people daydreaming too much, and so CCP doesnt listen to them.

If you ever do meet CCP the only thing you should tell them, is your too afraid to do anything with your corp, cause everyone will make fun of them, that and you have dreams of being used as a portal. Might be a hit for lonely people at fanfest.


We clearly do not see eye to eye on this.
Make fun all you want of it, it will not change my message.

Most people will vote for previous candidates, but i assure you, the talks i have had with random players who never bothered with the CSM elections, are actually interested now.

And me thinks it is actually frightening the hell out of you and those candidates that have a personal agenda instead of having the player base and the great game that is called EvE, on their mind.

Good day to you sir!



Once you think you have it all, you have actually become ignorant towards everything else.

T. Would
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-02-15 13:16:34 UTC
Johnny Marzetti wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
It would be nice if the system was fair and all all player wishes where represented and not just those of null sec dwellers because the way it's going now, we'll have one group controlling the entire CSM in the near future.


You're saying a system that doesn't hand you a candidate that people can unite behind on a silver platter without any serious effort besides making a forum post isn't fair?

I don't know what to tell you.


I'm saying that the CSM is a popularity contest and that is does not represent the wishes of the community as a whole.

We should have different people to represent the different parts of eve (High sec, low sec, null, Wormholes, industry etc.) so that more voices are heard.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Tiger Would
Doomheim
#16 - 2012-02-15 13:22:18 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
It would be nice if the system was fair and all all player wishes where represented and not just those of null sec dwellers because the way it's going now, we'll have one group controlling the entire CSM in the near future.


Rek, please follow this thread this election, it will contain the outline of how it can be done.
Upcoming days it will become clear how much more a CSM could add to the game!
How much you can add to the game!

Once you think you have it all, you have actually become ignorant towards everything else.

T. Would
Johnny Marzetti
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2012-02-15 13:26:45 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:

I'm saying that the CSM is a popularity contest and that is does not represent the wishes of the community as a whole.

We should have different people to represent the different parts of eve (High sec, low sec, null, Wormholes, industry etc.) so that more voices are heard.


All democracy is a popularity contest. The people in the various non-null parts of Eve need to get together and get behind just a few candidates or none of them will be represented. Every empire, lowsec, and wormhole nobody who decides to throw his hat in the ring for CSM reduces that area's chance of being represented at all on the CSM, and actually raisies the chance that gadflies and wackos like riverini and Xenuria will sit on the CSM in their place while the rest of the CSM is dominated by nullsec alliances.

I'm going to borrow the excellent slogan, "Step up, step back" and suggest that some of the lesser known candidates from the various underrepresented areas of Eve withdraw their candidacies and campaign on behalf of someone with similar views and a better chance of winning. Divide the wormhole vote and wormholes won't be represented. Divide the lowsec vote and lowsec won't be represented. The candidates' egos are what's causing that, not the "unfair popularity contest" you're complaining about.
Tiger Would
Doomheim
#18 - 2012-02-15 13:31:18 UTC
Quote:
The candidates' egos are what's causing that


That is exactly why i am taking my ego out of the equationAttention

Once you think you have it all, you have actually become ignorant towards everything else.

T. Would
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#19 - 2012-02-15 15:15:26 UTC
what on earth makes you think you've got such a volume of useful insight you need five reserved posts for it
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#20 - 2012-02-15 15:16:05 UTC
rather than a chinese fortune cookie fortune or something more appropriately sized

and that's generous, of course
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