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Why isn't EvE's player base growing?
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#101 - 2012-02-06 21:22:34 UTC
5p4c3 M4n wrote:
Ok.. you missed the point entirely.

"THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO LIKE CAREBEAR STUFF IN EVE!! THEY NEVER WANT TO PVP!!"
No, i think you missed the point completely. The things I listed that would have to be barred from a non-PvP area are all PvP activities that affect the rest of the game world and everyone in it. If people don't want to PvP, then they will have to stay away from those things. If they want to do those things, and thus affect everyone around them, then those around them should be allowed to affect those people right back — PvP.

Quote:
There should be a place with 0 pvp.
There is. It's called “Singularity”. Nothing you do there affects anyone else. There is a reason (besides the constant wipes, the odd patching and availability and the occasionally unstable nature of the code running there) why people don't do this: because without that PvP element, everything you do is meaningless.

Quote:
Like I said. Maybe the ore has much less yield. Maybe the ice belts actually get mined out and you have to wait for them to respawn or move to regular space. But some people would love this about eve.
Unfortunately, no matter how much they love it, letting them affect the rest of the game world “in peace” would be inherently bad for everyone and thus cannot be allowed.

Quote:
An interwebz spaceshipz game that "everyone" can enjoy.
Why does “everyone” need to be able to enjoy it?
Ai Shun
#102 - 2012-02-06 21:48:24 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
I know it's difficult to grasp, but, something that is performed by one in four characters is an improtant issue on itself. Also is important whatever do 67% of characters; even fi all them where nullsc alts, then hisec still would be important because it's where 67% of characters are, which woul beg questions as for why they are not in nullsec.


It is not that difficult. Trade alts for market scanning; one in each trade hub. There are 3 or 4 characters potentially. 0.0 needs a place to market some of their exclusive goods too. Then, add in the numbers for suicide ganking alts. They may swing each way. Then you have the haulers that ship the goods produced to convenient locations for a JF to pickup, etc.

I really think this is why using CONCORD security rating to determine demographics in any shape or form is dumb. Any decisions needs to be made not on where players are, but on what they do in space.
Ai Shun
#103 - 2012-02-06 21:51:14 UTC
5p4c3 M4n wrote:
There should be a place with 0 pvp.


Okay, say goodbye to missions, Incursions, mining, trade and everything else in EVE. Congratulations, you can now spend your entire subscription time spinning a ship.

Oh. Wait.

The current game mechanics allow you to do exactly that. It even gives you a counter so you can track your achievements.
Lili Lu
#104 - 2012-02-06 21:55:22 UTC
5p4c3 M4n wrote:
"THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO LIKE CAREBEAR STUFF IN EVE!! THEY NEVER WANT TO PVP!!"

This is simple. although these areas should be connected they should still exist. There should be a place with 0 pvp.

Like I said. Maybe the ore has much less yield. Maybe the ice belts actually get mined out and you have to wait for them to respawn or move to regular space. But some people would love this about eve.

Eve has never had non-potentially-pvp areas. The game is well known to have pvp and the potential loss of virtual assets from the pvp (or even from the pve for that matter) everywhere in the game, even high sec. Anyone coming to this game with an expectation such as you used all caps for is plainly stupid. Besides, it is possible to avoid pvp in empire, but not entirely. To want to escape the possibility of losing virtual assets, then go play some other game.

FFS the carebear activities are essentially making weapons. Even if all you did was mine and build industrials you would be furthering the market chain for weapons. To expect that those weapons won't ever get turned on you at some point is delusional. The potential for loss provides the excitement. I think even the poeple you think you are championing, if they trully examined the motivation for being here, would conceed that it is what brought them and what keeps them here despite all the complaining.

5p4c3 M4n wrote:
Tippia wrote:
5p4c3 M4n wrote:
This would make eve what it needs to be.
…and what is that, exactly?


An interwebz spaceshipz game that "everyone" can enjoy. If ccp keeps catering to the whiny losers that "just want to blow stuff up" then eve will die in a fire sooner rather than later.

What do you want, a special olympics where everyone is a winner and noone loses a race? Again, anyone in this game has to expect that they will lose a ship and not get it back. They will eventually lose a pod and not get their implants back. That is what is advertized. And that is what has made it a game worth playing for those that have been here.

As to the OP. Growth? Who says it has to grow. It is a mature game. It has already gone through it's childhood years. If it slowly increases in numbers, fine. If it stays at a steady state, fine also. Either way it survives. Here's hoping it has a long adulthood. Eventually it will die, everything does. Enjoy what it has been, is, and hopefully will continue to be.

Noone should worry unless it starts sloughing off huge numbers of players. That nearly happened with the incarna crap where the game was not being true to itself. Spaceman would have it not be true to itself, which would lose it its existing playerbase. If such a change were to occur CCP would have to be damn sure they could capture enough instant gratification whores that would somehow not get bored and proceed to the next shiney game.
David Grogan
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#105 - 2012-02-06 21:55:43 UTC
Hans Hoff wrote:
I started playing EvE just over 3 years ago.
There always seems to be the same amount of players at the same time of day, which is slightly over 50K at around 22:00 down to 20K at around 09:00. This has not changed in all this time, so I'm wondering What's up?
Could it be that players get frustrated about the limitations and leave, or basically the game lacks something to keep enough people interested?
Theories?


monoclegate saw alot of bitter vets quit eve

then the northern coalition got spanked by drf and many more bitter vets quit eve

then supernerf came out and more bitter vets left

then plex prices became too expensive (500mil+) so more accounts were let go unsubbed

most of the bitter vets that left haven't returned

the ratio of new players joining vs bitter vets leaving has been fairly even since crucible came out

so population growth has now stagnated... but at least its no longer on the decline.

Everytime you buy something that says "made in china" you are helping the rising unemployment in your own country unless you are from china, Buy locally produced goods and help create more jobs.
RedLion
State Constructions
#106 - 2012-02-06 22:20:02 UTC
I can confirm Eve is dead. Send me your isk.
Rath Kelbore
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#107 - 2012-02-06 22:28:27 UTC
Fer DeLance wrote:
The game hasn't really moved foward in the last 2-3 years. Yes, new ships and modules have been introduced, but after all, they do mostly what was done before, just in a different, or a better, or an easier, or a cheaper way. What difference would it make for a 2-3 years old player to save isk and buy a Talos, and not just pay a few iskies more and buy a more durable Mega or Hyperion? Sure it would be good for a change, sure it will be fun for a couple of months, but it's again the same old thing.

So old players get bored and new players get socked by the complexity of the game. For EVE to grow, CCP needs to both make it a lot easier for new players to beggin, and a lot more interesting for old players to stay.

Why not make it that there are ships, modules, or even areas of EVE that need the character to be of certain age to access? Or that is takes combined skills, time, missions completed, security status reached etc ect, to unlock certain abilities, or skils and modules? I may not be describing this correctly, what i want to say, is give old players some long-term goals to achive, either PVE goals or even PVP goals.

And fix the stupid Neutal RR thing. As long as it exists i have sworn to never talk about EVE to anyone new. I mean it...



Didn't read the whole thread so I don't know if this was already taken care of. The bolded part, you realize it's already that way?

Want a caldari navy raven? You need to get enough LP by running a certain number of missions with a certain corporation to get that raven. "No cuz I bot it on markeet!". You bought it on the market from somebody who did all the aforementioned things to get the raven. Same with faction modules.

Certain secruity status reached? Ever try to drop a POS in high sec? For that matter, ever try to go into high sec when your sec status isn't at the right number?

I'm not hatin on you but if you had something else in mind that isn't already the way it is, some elaboration is needed.

I plan on living forever.......so far, so good.
Fer DeLance
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#108 - 2012-02-08 02:19:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Fer DeLance
Rath Kelbore wrote:
Fer DeLance wrote:
The game hasn't really moved foward in the last 2-3 years. Yes, new ships and modules have been introduced, but after all, they do mostly what was done before, just in a different, or a better, or an easier, or a cheaper way. What difference would it make for a 2-3 years old player to save isk and buy a Talos, and not just pay a few iskies more and buy a more durable Mega or Hyperion? Sure it would be good for a change, sure it will be fun for a couple of months, but it's again the same old thing.

So old players get bored and new players get socked by the complexity of the game. For EVE to grow, CCP needs to both make it a lot easier for new players to beggin, and a lot more interesting for old players to stay.

Why not make it that there are ships, modules, or even areas of EVE that need the character to be of certain age to access? Or that is takes combined skills, time, missions completed, security status reached etc ect, to unlock certain abilities, or skils and modules? I may not be describing this correctly, what i want to say, is give old players some long-term goals to achive, either PVE goals or even PVP goals.

And fix the stupid Neutal RR thing. As long as it exists i have sworn to never talk about EVE to anyone new. I mean it...



Didn't read the whole thread so I don't know if this was already taken care of. The bolded part, you realize it's already that way?

Want a caldari navy raven? You need to get enough LP by running a certain number of missions with a certain corporation to get that raven. "No cuz I bot it on markeet!". You bought it on the market from somebody who did all the aforementioned things to get the raven. Same with faction modules.

Certain secruity status reached? Ever try to drop a POS in high sec? For that matter, ever try to go into high sec when your sec status isn't at the right number?

I'm not hatin on you but if you had something else in mind that isn't already the way it is, some elaboration is needed.


My sec status is at the right number (5.0, doesn't get better), i have two, or so, millions LP points that i don't really know where and what to spend them for, i can drop poses in many many systems, "earning" a Caldari Navy Raven isn't much of a goal for me, maybe a weeks work etc etc... And there are many old characters like me. We need something beyond 5.0 security status, we need something beyond 2.000.000 LP points... The game needs to move forward. New things must happen, like unexplored areas, like new races, like Jovian space, like 9th slot, like 11th implant... That's what i mean by moving forward, not making another intermediate class of ships that goes between BS and BC, and does this and that better. Things like the ones i described may keep a portion of old players occupied for some time...

I have read all the posts... there is too much theoretical analisys of what is going on and what is going wrong, but only very few and general suggestions (Mostly the usual things about sandbox, how to force everybody in low-sec and null sec, and how a two days old character can perform miracles in PvP). We need practical suggestions and solutions.
Montragar
Perkone
Caldari State
#109 - 2012-03-11 22:47:14 UTC
Is it because of the learning curve or the pvp ?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#110 - 2012-03-11 23:25:05 UTC
ISD Grossvogel sent me here, he said hello.
Ai Shun
#111 - 2012-03-11 23:30:21 UTC
Montragar wrote:
Is it because of the learning curve or the pvp ?


Came here from your failed thread.

Why do some people like spinach and others don't? Why do some people own Ferraris and others do not?

Different games will have appeal for different segments of the market. EVE Online is not a theme-park MMO like Star Wars: The Old Republic or World of Warcraft. It targets a completely different mindset of player.

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the concept of EVE Online; it is just a different game and does not appeal to the mass market. It requires a specific type of player and those players are, according to CCP's own data, fairly loyal once they comprehend what the game really involves.
Kehro Urgus
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2012-03-11 23:48:44 UTC
Hans Hoff wrote:
I started playing EvE just over 3 years ago.
There always seems to be the same amount of players at the same time of day, which is slightly over 50K at around 22:00 down to 20K at around 09:00. This has not changed in all this time, so I'm wondering What's up?
Could it be that players get frustrated about the limitations and leave, or basically the game lacks something to keep enough people interested?
Theories?

Seems like CCP doesn't do much marketing for EVE. SWTOR has the Star Wars franchise behind it and WoW is advertised farily extensively. Unless one keeps a keen eye on the MMO gaming industry they will likely not have even heard of it. The only reason I ever heard about EVE was a random comment on an other MMO forum several years before I signed on and nothing since. On a whim I decided to check it out one night and to my surprise it was still around.

Yeeee! 
Ai Shun
#113 - 2012-03-12 00:03:43 UTC
Fer DeLance wrote:
My sec status is at the right number (5.0, doesn't get better), i have two, or so, millions LP points that i don't really know where and what to spend them for, i can drop poses in many many systems, "earning" a Caldari Navy Raven isn't much of a goal for me, maybe a weeks work etc etc... And there are many old characters like me. We need something beyond 5.0 security status, we need something beyond 2.000.000 LP points... The game needs to move forward. New things must happen, like unexplored areas, like new races, like Jovian space, like 9th slot, like 11th implant... That's what i mean by moving forward, not making another intermediate class of ships that goes between BS and BC, and does this and that better. Things like the ones i described may keep a portion of old players occupied for some time...

I have read all the posts... there is too much theoretical analisys of what is going on and what is going wrong, but only very few and general suggestions (Mostly the usual things about sandbox, how to force everybody in low-sec and null sec, and how a two days old character can perform miracles in PvP). We need practical suggestions and solutions.


Will your "solution" not lead to the type of moving goalpost that infects theme park games?

I'm struggling to articulate this, but when I think of World of Warcraft or the like I see Gear Score, grinds and the drive to "earn" that next +10 or +20 on an item just so you can attack the next bit of content. There seems to be a need then for constant content that is consumed at much different rates; it just seems like a fundamentally flawed model. How many times can you increase the level cap before older content becomes obsolete and painful and the barrier to entry for new players is too great?

It seems to me that EVE got that balance right through the combination of training and the lack of the features that draws players to games like the above. It really puts the goals in the hands of each player where they need to decide those goals for themselves within the sandbox.

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#114 - 2012-03-12 00:20:00 UTC
J Kunjeh wrote:
Keno Skir wrote:
Yeah i agree. EvE is hard and most often too complicated for the very young to understand fully. It takes a special sort of dedication to play this game since most/all goals are set by yourself and there is no end other than what you decide the end to be.


Translation: to get any real satisfaction out of Eve, you must be unemployed and living in your grandma's basement because it required 10 hours/day and a job and social life are difficult to fit in for the truly dedicated Eve player.



There is a difference between eve being complicated and eve taking allot of time. Lots of the time people have to spend in eve - scouting for fights or waiting for fleets to form - is pretty mundane. I anticipate ccp will speed up our ability to get pvp quickly when they revamp faction war.

Eve was actually losing players due to the incarna move. Its hard to turn that around and start picking up numbers again. But I think they will do that.

Plus incarna introduced some bugs that still have not been worked out. This includes the client freezing up at certain inopportune times - like when you are trying to warp your pod out.

And yes null sec has been very tame since bob disolved. So there hasn't been any news where lots of capitals are destroyed and that tends to peak new players interest. I don't do null sec, so I don't know why null sec has been so boring for so long - risk averse leaders or ccp mechanics - or both.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Jas Dor
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#115 - 2012-03-12 00:22:53 UTC
I thought eve subs finally broke 400K recently. That's not growing quickly but not dead either. Maybe the launch in the Japan and Dust will bring in some more people.
Valentyn3
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#116 - 2012-03-12 00:49:41 UTC
Eve as a game only appeals to a very narrow audience. Unless they drastically change the nature of the game it will always be this way and will only really ever grow in relation to the number of total mmo customers available.

Unless they make the combat more fps'y or make non-pvp areas, they will probably never see people from demographics other than the ones they have now.

I don't always use hax. But when I do, it's because I'm an NPC.. http://i.imgur.com/PUZou.jpg
Ai Shun
#117 - 2012-03-12 00:52:42 UTC
Valentyn3 wrote:
Eve as a game only appeals to a very narrow audience. Unless they drastically change the nature of the game it will always be this way and will only really ever grow in relation to the number of total mmo customers available.

Unless they make the combat more fps'y or make non-pvp areas, they will probably never see people from demographics other than the ones they have now.


I agree with that. However, I think projects like Dust 514 will extend the EVE Universe (And thus the CCP subscriber / player base) without having to modify the core principles of EVE Online too much. That way they get the best of both worlds.

Now, if they could add WiS as an add-on to EVE Universe like Dust, with its own gameplay and objectives and implement a RTS layer between Dust and EVE FiS I'd be a very, very happy camper.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#118 - 2012-03-12 00:54:07 UTC
Eve is growing, certainly if you consider the average population since Incarna was released. Here's my proof: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com/2012/02/02/crucible-mission-accomplished/ - and if ~words~ isn't good enough, here's a pretty picture: http://liangnuren.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/chart_1.png

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#119 - 2012-03-12 00:57:54 UTC
Valentyn3 wrote:
Eve as a game only appeals to a very narrow audience. Unless they drastically change the nature of the game it will always be this way and will only really ever grow in relation to the number of total mmo customers available.

Unless they make the combat more fps'y or make non-pvp areas, they will probably never see people from demographics other than the ones they have now.


I don't know if I agree with this. You would consider Rift a 'main stream' game, yet Eve Online actually has more subs and a significantly higher PCU. Consider: http://wp.me/p1WQ0O-4I

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Valentyn3
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#120 - 2012-03-12 01:08:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Valentyn3
Liang Nuren wrote:
Valentyn3 wrote:
Eve as a game only appeals to a very narrow audience. Unless they drastically change the nature of the game it will always be this way and will only really ever grow in relation to the number of total mmo customers available.

Unless they make the combat more fps'y or make non-pvp areas, they will probably never see people from demographics other than the ones they have now.


I don't know if I agree with this. You would consider Rift a 'main stream' game, yet Eve Online actually has more subs and a significantly higher PCU. Consider: http://wp.me/p1WQ0O-4I

-Liang


I just mean the idea of a player driven sandbox is "OMG win" to a lot of people until they find out that there is only one server, it's a pvp server, and everything you own is destructible. Once you get through all that it leaves only a small portion that either see this as a plus or aren't bothered by it enough to stop.

I'll admit I don't know much about Rift but it's been my experience that any mmo that doesn't establish a solid player base either was just plain bad or tried to emulate another successful game which is almost always a farce.

A lot of mmo'ers have been lulled into the "Giant shoulder pads ftw" style of game play and when they hear that not only do giant shoulder pads not mean an automatic win in eve but that they can be atomized, people get turned off easily. Or at least that has been my experience with the people I know who play games religiously.

I don't always use hax. But when I do, it's because I'm an NPC.. http://i.imgur.com/PUZou.jpg