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Reason Why Removing Local would not fix the null botting.

Author
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#1 - 2012-02-06 08:44:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Fox
They can inhumanly D-scan with some uncanny coverage and if there is a newer entry than them they cloak up until number of entries matches them again.

Other attempts to avoid thier decection would also be met with better and more intelligent bots to be made.

That is all.

edit
I guess its not all

1 I am not advodacting against the removal of local just trying to counter one argument for local removal. Its neary stupid to remove a 'feature' because of botting alone. Reworked local for null would bring in a new level of thinking to null but it be much better if it brought a new level of stratagey.

2 I agree D-Scan needs to be fixed severly possibly made funner or infinitely much more useful.

edit 2
for those not wanting to read the whole thread


D-Scan of course doesnt tell hostiles from freindlies, has a cooldown of 5 seconds and has limited range.

However.... this proves that bots are quite capable of being a bit smarter than you give them credit for and honestly a simple bot is more than capable of counting +1 to d-scan results and then set panic mode. Where as you may forget to hit dscan before transition cloaking (to prevent from getting nailed yourself) and may not catch anything in local when they cloak up. The 100 or so bots may be perfectly clocking thier d-scan to one ever 0.05 of a second and then share thier results.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
#2 - 2012-02-06 08:48:54 UTC
What if the only time you would show up on d-scan is when you are 24km away from them?
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#3 - 2012-02-06 08:52:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Xorv
DScan doesn't give as much information and doesn't distinguish between friendlies and neutrals/hostiles and has a limited range. It wouldn't necessarily stop botting but it would make it harder. CCP could also add random false positives to DScan and keep everyone on edge, and bots inactive. ..(edit) also cloaked ships don't show up on DScan. ..not sure how I left that one out, because it alone would make botters lives miserable.

Anyway, there's more reasons to remove Local Chat intel than just addressing bots, as far as I'm concerned that would just be a bonus side effect not the purpose of removing Local Intel.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#4 - 2012-02-06 08:55:52 UTC
The real reason removing local is a terrible idea is that Null Income for real players is based on Anomalies which do not require probes to find.

WHs work without local because:
1) The income is higher
2) The income is based on sites that need to be probed down, so there's a chance of catching the probes or probe ship on DScan

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2012-02-06 09:17:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
no man
ask any guy who lives in a wormhole
pressing d-scan is the ultimate in player skill
no AI could emulate such a feat
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2012-02-06 09:18:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
RubyPorto wrote:
The real reason removing local is a terrible idea is that Null Income for real players is based on Anomalies which do not require probes to find.

WHs work without local because:
1) The income is higher
2) The income is based on sites that need to be probed down, so there's a chance of catching the probes or probe ship on DScan

3) mass limitations
4) no cynos
5) can destroy entry point with use of large ships once a hostile is detected
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#7 - 2012-02-06 09:40:47 UTC
My bomber laughs at you.
Ocih
Space Mermaids
Somethin Awfull Forums
#8 - 2012-02-06 09:45:20 UTC
This like most things is an after thought. Had it been considered 6 years ago they could have made local like wormholes where you arent in local untill you speak up and that feature goes away as soon as you add an outpost to the system. Null sec would look much different than it does now had that been done.

It's always easier to look back and say what should be and should have been done different. Doing anything to local now would be huge, much bigger than anyone can predict. As for bots, that was never a part of local debates but they didnt build EVE to be anti bot, they built it to be played. Bots were built based on what was given to them. It didn't matter what CCP did, the bots would have adapted.
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#9 - 2012-02-06 12:12:47 UTC
people who want local removed should just move into a wormhole and stfu
local information is also vital for people who actually wants to pvp, used for hunting targets, specially for chasing someone through several systems...! unless CCP drasticly improves Dscan. removes cloaking, and much more, local should remain in non wormhole space

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934

I'thari
#10 - 2012-02-06 12:19:25 UTC
I suspect it's much simplier: any bot program will just have access to info server sends to client... and client knows who is in system in any given time and where he is (at least if old vid with GM menu is to be belived). So, by removing local you won't change anything for bots, but real people will have more trouble telling if there's one in system...

Disclaimer:

Every single character used in this post is a work of fiction. Any similarities with real-world alphabet, or - god forbid - language is purely unintnetional!

Razin
The Scope
#11 - 2012-02-06 12:25:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Razin
Nova Fox wrote:
They can inhumanly press Dscan every second and if there is a newer entry than them they cloak up until number of entries matches them again.

That is all.

It's pretty clear the the current d-scan needs to be reworked for delayed local. This is stated in pretty much every topic advocating delayed local.

For example, my preference for the new d-scan would be to have the auto passive and the manual active modes (with some range and detectability tradeoffs for both), where the liberal use of the active scanner would tun your ship into a warpable signature.
Honnete Du Decimer
#12 - 2012-02-06 12:26:43 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
2) The income is based on sites that need to be probed down, so there's a chance of catching the probes or probe ship on DScan


Combat site - no need D-scan give most ISK.

D-scan horrible. Press many many time. So broken, only crazy game make player do like this. Then they have cloak Warp To. Sad

PMS [:p]

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#13 - 2012-02-06 12:36:57 UTC
Honnete Du Decimer wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
2) The income is based on sites that need to be probed down, so there's a chance of catching the probes or probe ship on DScan


Combat site - no need D-scan give most ISK.


Are you talking about WH space or Null? Cause Anoms in WH space pay a pittance compared to Sigs. Also, the sentence you quoted referred quite clearly to WH space.

I swear, I think you're English is steadily worsening. I could've sworn you were able to use definite articles not two days ago. And parse-able sentence structures yesterday.

Quote:

D-scan horrible. Press many many time. So broken, only crazy game make player do like this. Then they have cloak Warp To. Sad


Yeah. That was part of my point... and then what's this about cloaked warp ins? That's why you've been d-scanning for probes this whole time.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Razin
The Scope
#14 - 2012-02-06 12:37:49 UTC
I'thari wrote:
I suspect it's much simplier: any bot program will just have access to info server sends to client... and client knows who is in system in any given time and where he is (at least if old vid with GM menu is to be belived). So, by removing local you won't change anything for bots, but real people will have more trouble telling if there's one in system...

So, the GM client couldn't possibly request this info from the server?
Buruk Utama
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#15 - 2012-02-06 13:03:31 UTC
I'thari wrote:
I suspect it's much simplier: any bot program will just have access to info server sends to client... and client knows who is in system in any given time and where he is (at least if old vid with GM menu is to be belived). So, by removing local you won't change anything for bots, but real people will have more trouble telling if there's one in system...


Pretty much this. Bots monitor the data coming into the client and when someone enters the system your client is forcefully updated. The bots recognize this signature change and therefore know immediately that someone came into system and to dock up or start their friend/foe subroutine before docking up.
seany1212
Drunkendis Order
#16 - 2012-02-06 13:32:17 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Are you talking about WH space or Null? Cause Anoms in WH space pay a pittance compared to Sigs. Also, the sentence you quoted referred quite clearly to WH space.
.


lol, you're doing it wrong.

No local in null would shake things up a bit, for those alliances that build bubble fortresses on gates for there anomaly/mining ops would have to actually start manning the gates but it will never happen because the carebear nullsec'ers will cry too hard Roll
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#17 - 2012-02-06 13:36:51 UTC
seany1212 wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Are you talking about WH space or Null? Cause Anoms in WH space pay a pittance compared to Sigs. Also, the sentence you quoted referred quite clearly to WH space.
.


lol, you're doing it wrong.

No local in null would shake things up a bit, for those alliances that build bubble fortresses on gates for there anomaly/mining ops would have to actually start manning the gates but it will never happen because the carebear nullsec'ers will cry too hard Roll


lmao you think people mine in nullsec like peasants

you're dumb

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Honnete Du Decimer
#18 - 2012-02-06 13:37:40 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Are you talking about WH space or Null? Cause Anoms in WH space pay a pittance compared to Sigs. Also, the sentence you quoted referred quite clearly to WH space.

I swear, I think you're English is steadily worsening. I could've sworn you were able to use definite articles not two days ago. And parse-able sentence structures yesterday.


Combat site - do many with dedicate salvage ship.

English - I am in work. Less time check and think.

RubyPorto wrote:

Yeah. That was part of my point... and then what's this about cloaked warp ins? That's why you've been d-scanning for probes this whole time.


Scan many worm hole before people are log on. Catch in combat site. Only chance see come is time for enemy warp.

PMS [:p]

seany1212
Drunkendis Order
#19 - 2012-02-06 13:44:06 UTC
Andski wrote:
seany1212 wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Are you talking about WH space or Null? Cause Anoms in WH space pay a pittance compared to Sigs. Also, the sentence you quoted referred quite clearly to WH space.
.


lol, you're doing it wrong.

No local in null would shake things up a bit, for those alliances that build bubble fortresses on gates for there anomaly/mining ops would have to actually start manning the gates but it will never happen because the carebear nullsec'ers will cry too hard Roll


lmao you think people mine in nullsec like peasants

you're dumb


mine hulls, duhhh P
Razin
The Scope
#20 - 2012-02-06 13:46:00 UTC
Buruk Utama wrote:
I'thari wrote:
I suspect it's much simplier: any bot program will just have access to info server sends to client... and client knows who is in system in any given time and where he is (at least if old vid with GM menu is to be belived). So, by removing local you won't change anything for bots, but real people will have more trouble telling if there's one in system...


Pretty much this. Bots monitor the data coming into the client and when someone enters the system your client is forcefully updated. The bots recognize this signature change and therefore know immediately that someone came into system and to dock up or start their friend/foe subroutine before docking up.

You don't get the point because you are too stupid. No biggie, here it is simplified: bots detect changes in system population because we have instant local. Hope that helps.
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