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Balancing Feedback: Capital Ships

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Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#801 - 2012-01-30 07:49:40 UTC
Isbariya wrote:
well the csm minutes as well as the old ask us everything thread said you guys are thinking
about letting supercarriers dock at outposts.
Sounds fine to me, but in my opinion they should be able to dock at regular stations, too.
The reason is that it would be an big advantage for alliances with sov.
Make it even and allow supers to dock at npc stations as well or don't let them dock at all.
We have been fine all these years, we'll be fine then.
So all or no one !


Would be good to have as a monument achievement for an outpost thats for sure.

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H3llHound
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#802 - 2012-01-31 22:32:05 UTC
rofl, everygoons start bitching around when a 90B space-**** is slapping them in the face. Winter has come, gone and nothing happend. Maybe for summer you want to be able to fit XL guns on your almighty subcap fleets. Adapt and start cynoing in dreads en masse...worked once before. Or maybe all the ships should just track like a dread in siege :rolleyes:
stagz
Perkone
Caldari State
#803 - 2012-02-01 05:15:22 UTC
there is no reason for a super carrier to not be able to have a full set of bombers and fighters.
its utterly ridiculous.

+1 for bringing back 20 and 20.
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#804 - 2012-02-02 07:33:11 UTC
stagz wrote:
there is no reason for a super carrier to not be able to have a full set of bombers and fighters.
its utterly ridiculous.

+1 for bringing back 20 and 20.



This.

20/20 for summer/winter

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I'm Down
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#805 - 2012-02-03 00:35:19 UTC
The tracking formula in combination with Webs is what's borked in this game. Anyone who think's titan gun tracking changes will fix the problem is just clueless about the actual issue and how experienced players can abuse tracking.

As for dread tracking, you can get it to basically 70% of titan tracking...which is still crazy high tracking when you understand mechanics.

Not to mention, with capitals in their current state, it's incredibly easy to drop them on others, and much much harder to counter drop vs an organized opponent. Everyone experienced in Supercap Warfare knows it's really just a measure of DD calculations and interdictors.
Shaak Ti
Star.Men
Fraternity.
#806 - 2012-02-05 09:59:44 UTC
stagz wrote:
there is no reason for a super carrier to not be able to have a full set of bombers and fighters.
its utterly ridiculous.

+1 for bringing back 20 and 20.


+1
Klytior Am'jarhs
Amarrian Retribution
#807 - 2012-02-05 13:23:25 UTC
Supers are to fight other capitals. That is what they need to do, no reason at all why they should have fighters.
Bonny Lee
State War Academy
Caldari State
#808 - 2012-02-05 15:27:39 UTC
I actually do like the ideas that supers are only working with a full fleet to back them up.
=> 3-4 supers for a full fleet. problem solved.
If they come without fleet they cant use weapons.
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#809 - 2012-02-07 00:21:20 UTC
Klytior Am'jarhs wrote:
Supers are to fight other capitals. That is what they need to do, no reason at all why they should have fighters.


If thats the case then sub caps are there to fight other subcaps, no reason at all they need to be able to target supers or caps.

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Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#810 - 2012-02-07 09:02:58 UTC
You are wrong right there... To make a game fun and balanced it's okay to allow small ships a hero role against bigger ships, but you have to be very carefull about making the bigger ships able to bully the small ships.
It's all about creating a game where bigger isn't necesarily better...
Shadowsword
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#811 - 2012-02-07 15:52:16 UTC
Headerman wrote:
Klytior Am'jarhs wrote:
Supers are to fight other capitals. That is what they need to do, no reason at all why they should have fighters.


If thats the case then sub caps are there to fight other subcaps, no reason at all they need to be able to target supers or caps.


Subcaps already can't fight caps without hugley outnumbering them, so your point is irrelevant. Them being able to target supercaps is useless if you can't achieve anything with it on your own.

A more relevant comparaison would be to have battleships being able to switch whenever they want between Large, anti-BS guns and small, anti-frig guns. It's not done for balance purposes, to avoid solopwnmobiles. And there is no reason for supercaps to escape that balance rule just because they cost a bit to build.

Don't forget that supercaps are two sizes above battleships.
Draconus Lofwyr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#812 - 2012-02-07 18:06:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Draconus Lofwyr
Shadowsword wrote:
Headerman wrote:
Klytior Am'jarhs wrote:
Supers are to fight other capitals. That is what they need to do, no reason at all why they should have fighters.


If thats the case then sub caps are there to fight other subcaps, no reason at all they need to be able to target supers or caps.


Subcaps already can't fight caps without hugley outnumbering them, so your point is irrelevant. Them being able to target supercaps is useless if you can't achieve anything with it on your own.

A more relevant comparaison would be to have battleships being able to switch whenever they want between Large, anti-BS guns and small, anti-frig guns. It's not done for balance purposes, to avoid solopwnmobiles. And there is no reason for supercaps to escape that balance rule just because they cost a bit to build.

Don't forget that supercaps are two sizes above battleships.



really, all it takes is one hictor and a super is dead eventually, just hold it in place till the kill fleet arrives.

but some already can, t2 ammo allows for those changes, drone boats like the domi can carry a full range of drones for that, so so much for that argument. Also BS's are 2 sizes above frigates, your point ( but a supercarrier is technically a tier 2 carrier, so only 1 and a bit above a battleship )
Msgerbs
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#813 - 2012-02-08 05:14:56 UTC
Draconus Lofwyr wrote:
really, all it takes is one hictor and a super is dead eventually, just hold it in place till the kill fleet arrives.

but some already can, t2 ammo allows for those changes, drone boats like the domi can carry a full range of drones for that, so so much for that argument. Also BS's are 2 sizes above frigates, your point ( but a supercarrier is technically a tier 2 carrier, so only 1 and a bit above a battleship )
Oh no a Gallente ship is versatile whatever shall we do?! Drones can be killed quickly by frigates, there's your balance.
Draconus Lofwyr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#814 - 2012-02-08 15:53:57 UTC
Msgerbs wrote:
Draconus Lofwyr wrote:
really, all it takes is one hictor and a super is dead eventually, just hold it in place till the kill fleet arrives.

but some already can, t2 ammo allows for those changes, drone boats like the domi can carry a full range of drones for that, so so much for that argument. Also BS's are 2 sizes above frigates, your point ( but a supercarrier is technically a tier 2 carrier, so only 1 and a bit above a battleship )
Oh no a Gallente ship is versatile whatever shall we do?! Drones can be killed quickly by frigates, there's your balance.


and so can fighters. and fighter bombers. but supercarriers have no other weapon options. perhaps we should allow weapon subsystem targeting on other ships? how would you like your rack of missles or lasers to be taken out?
HELIC0N ONE
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#815 - 2012-02-08 21:38:22 UTC
Draconus Lofwyr wrote:
really, all it takes is one hictor and a super is dead eventually, just hold it in place till the kill fleet arrives.


Look at how dumb you are.

(all it takes is one heavy neut and that hictor loses its tackle and the supercarrier escapes)
CrimsonChrono
Comms Black
Pandemic Horde
#816 - 2012-02-09 01:23:38 UTC  |  Edited by: CrimsonChrono
One thing that I would like to see is a change to the Naglfar, right now I think it is probably the worst of all the dreads. With the split damage type (Projectiles/Missile). First off to get full use of the ship you have to max out 3, 7x skills (Capital Projectile, Citadel Cruise, and Citadel Torpedo) each with there own large class weapon 5x skill that needs rank V. Which is a huge amount of skill points needed, far more then needed with any other ship. Also with the split damage type you have to waste lots of low slots trying to get any use of the missiles, wasting much needed low slots for other mods, lets face it capital missiles suck with out a ship bonus.

I suggest get rid of the missiles all together, why not get rid of the useless missiles and put on two more turrets, and bring its dps in line with the other dreads.

For example I have a friend I fly with a lot, we have same skill points, V in all things for our dreads and all gunnery skills. We are pretty much the same in every way except their dread does 2x the dps that the Naglfar does. If the Naglfar was given 3 turrets and no missiles it would be an improvement but it would still be lacking. With 4 projectile turrets it would be brought in line with the other dreadnaughts.

Suggested fittings
5 High Slots - 4 Turret hardpoints - 0 Missiles
6 Med Slots
6 Low Slots

I love the Naglfar but it never gets used because it sucks compared to the other dreads. It takes way to much time and skill points to fly properly, fitting is difficult to chose between damage or tank. Just get rid of the split damage type and make it like the other dreads.
Draconus Lofwyr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#817 - 2012-02-09 04:10:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Draconus Lofwyr
HELIC0N ONE wrote:
Draconus Lofwyr wrote:
really, all it takes is one hictor and a super is dead eventually, just hold it in place till the kill fleet arrives.


Look at how dumb you are.

(all it takes is one heavy neut and that hictor loses its tackle and the supercarrier escapes)



and without resorting to name calling, see the new t2 hictor point range and the ability to stay outside of even officer heavy neuts range. this point counterpoint can go on all day.

To be honest, the changes didn't change the way supers are used, just the way they dies when not in battles. They are still being used in massive numbers, and still being abused. the EHP nerf did nothing but speed the inevitable death a little. The nerf just made sure that they WILL get deployed in mass numbers. Again relegating supers to the tool of the major powers.
HELIC0N ONE
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#818 - 2012-02-10 00:04:51 UTC
Draconus Lofwyr wrote:
HELIC0N ONE wrote:
Draconus Lofwyr wrote:
really, all it takes is one hictor and a super is dead eventually, just hold it in place till the kill fleet arrives.


Look at how dumb you are.

(all it takes is one heavy neut and that hictor loses its tackle and the supercarrier escapes)


and without resorting to name calling, see the new t2 hictor point range and the ability to stay outside of even officer heavy neuts range. this point counterpoint can go on all day.


If the hictor is using its heavy point, then even better: remote ECM burst to break its lock and you're free to go.
Charles Edisson
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#819 - 2012-02-10 13:00:16 UTC
Shadowsword wrote:
Headerman wrote:
Klytior Am'jarhs wrote:
Supers are to fight other capitals. That is what they need to do, no reason at all why they should have fighters.


If thats the case then sub caps are there to fight other subcaps, no reason at all they need to be able to target supers or caps.


Subcaps already can't fight caps without hugley outnumbering them, so your point is irrelevant. Them being able to target supercaps is useless if you can't achieve anything with it on your own.

A more relevant comparaison would be to have battleships being able to switch whenever they want between Large, anti-BS guns and small, anti-frig guns. It's not done for balance purposes, to avoid solopwnmobiles. And there is no reason for supercaps to escape that balance rule just because they cost a bit to build.

Don't forget that supercaps are two sizes above battleships.



Following this logic a BS should not be able to shoot a cruiser sized hull.
Shadowsword
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#820 - 2012-02-10 15:18:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Shadowsword
Draconus Lofwyr wrote:
really, all it takes is one hictor and a super is dead eventually, just hold it in place till the kill fleet arrives.


"All it takes", eh?

You have a strange definition of those words, when you mention a killer fleet in the same sentence.


Pray tell, what are the supercap's friends doing while that kill fleet is on it's way? Sipping tea somewhere?


My point still stand, there is no subcap ship that can do anything it itself to a supercap. And because of that, there is no balance justification for giving supercaps the ability to slaughter subcap ships.

You want to defend yourself against subcap ships? CCP want you to do it with a subcap escort, end of argument.