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Trade Bots

Author
Jacob Stiller
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2012-01-31 10:44:36 UTC
Trading Mathilda wrote:
If you want to loose money you buy their sell orders,


Maybe. The times I used this tactic, I was probably dealing with real players that got so fed up with my 0.01 isking (sometimes using multiple stacks to bypass the 5 minute timer), that they started undercutting by irrational amounts.
Steve Celeste
Doomheim
#22 - 2012-01-31 11:13:06 UTC
If CCP does nothing about the trade bots, then they are simply unbeatable, given that they are programmed well enough.

If you want a picture of the future, imagine a bot stamping on a human face — forever.
Dane El
Negative Density
#23 - 2012-01-31 12:29:30 UTC
Jacob Stiller wrote:
Trading Mathilda wrote:
If you want to loose money you buy their sell orders,


Maybe. The times I used this tactic, I was probably dealing with real players that got so fed up with my 0.01 isking (sometimes using multiple stacks to bypass the 5 minute timer), that they started undercutting by irrational amounts.


Is it the person that made the deep undercut or the guy who will list multiple orders of the same type so he can update more than every 5 minutes the one being irrational?

A market bot seems to be a chore to identify as we have so many people who work really hard to act just like bots. I don't bother to figure out if the competition is automated or just rabid. If my order is going to be covered constantly, its a big market and I have better things to do than play the most boring game of chicken ever via the Eve market.
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
#24 - 2012-01-31 12:32:40 UTC
Botting in eve is like speeding on the highway/motorway/autobahn, it's officially against the rules but loads of people do it and the police/ccp are relaxed with it as long as you don't smear it in their face.

You get plenty of warning in EVE if your doing something wrong. Botters currently get 3 warnings before even getting threatened with a ban. Take this how you see fit. 3 Warnings. I used to moan all the time about bots but now I don't, Meh they hardly effect the game.
Jacob Stiller
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2012-01-31 21:11:56 UTC
Dane El wrote:
Jacob Stiller wrote:
Trading Mathilda wrote:
If you want to loose money you buy their sell orders,


Maybe. The times I used this tactic, I was probably dealing with real players that got so fed up with my 0.01 isking (sometimes using multiple stacks to bypass the 5 minute timer), that they started undercutting by irrational amounts.


Is it the person that made the deep undercut or the guy who will list multiple orders of the same type so he can update more than every 5 minutes the one being irrational?

A market bot seems to be a chore to identify as we have so many people who work really hard to act just like bots. I don't bother to figure out if the competition is automated or just rabid. If my order is going to be covered constantly, its a big market and I have better things to do than play the most boring game of chicken ever via the Eve market.


I do admit it is a rather brutal way to make isk and I'm currently in the process of retiring to a more peaceful life as a manufacturer. But if you want to unload inventory in a place like Jita quickly, you've got to be willing to put up at least 2 orders.
OllieNorth
Recidivists Incorporated
#26 - 2012-01-31 21:38:25 UTC  |  Edited by: OllieNorth
I love it. "Define an Obvious Bot" "Um, well, I can't, but it doesn't matter, let me see everyone's name so I can know who to gank easier. I know an Obvious Bot when I see one." Much like the US Supreme Court's stance on obscenity. If you are losing to bots, find something else to play with. It's like complaining about lowsec griefers. Fly somewhere else.

And let's not forget, a lot of people are much better at making you miserable in the market than bots.

Edit: Market trading isn't PVP . . . youmustbenewhere.jpg
Rita Jita
Caldari Provisions
#27 - 2012-02-01 00:26:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Rita Jita
ffs, the reason i don't answer the question;

Quote:
Define an Obvious Bot


is because any argument i would give would have a counter argument, and another muppet saying something along the lines of "but that could be done by anyone"

and this brings right back to the point of the the thread,
Give us more ways to detect people using bots

and the fact that so many people are happy to just move along and subside to people cheating is another reason why its such a big problem.
And should be dealt with.

Founder of the "Haulers Channel"

Come Check It Out

Liberty Eternal
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2012-02-01 12:41:56 UTC
Trading Mathilda wrote:
A bot is stupid, normal players are smart


So what happens if a smart player uses a bot?


Rita Jita wrote:
Current forum user stats on one of the biggest bot sites
Online 18 Members and 53 Guests


Where is?
Rita Jita
Caldari Provisions
#29 - 2012-02-01 13:35:02 UTC
rather not advertise a bot site tbh mate, little research you can find them yourself

Founder of the "Haulers Channel"

Come Check It Out

Dane El
Negative Density
#30 - 2012-02-02 12:59:47 UTC
Rita Jita wrote:
ffs, the reason i don't answer the question;

Quote:
Define an Obvious Bot


is because any argument i would give would have a counter argument, and another muppet saying something along the lines of "but that could be done by anyone"

and this brings right back to the point of the the thread,
Give us more ways to detect people using bots



What magic tools could CCP give us to identify bots?

Lots of traders operate like bots. They will:

* Constantly refresh the market to quickly update their orders to stay on top.
* Post multiple orders to bypass the 5 minute modify timer.
* Update their order to be the same amount lower than the next order every time.
* List a new order as soon as the old one was completed.
* Do all of that for obscenely long periods of time.

Really the only way I see to detect them is to access the server logs and see if they're doing that for periods of time simply not possible for a human or detect the interaction from the bot program in the client. Neither of those will CCP ever give you the ability to do.
TheBlueMonkey
Be Nice Inc.
Prismatic Legion
#31 - 2012-02-02 14:00:07 UTC
People are "out tradering you" thus they must be bots?

Please explain what makes you susspect they're a bot.

Personally I love bot hysteriea and I'd love it if CCP released actual numbers for things
No La
Greased Lightning Engineering
#32 - 2012-02-02 14:00:38 UTC
Dane El wrote:


Lots of traders operate like bots. They will:

* Constantly refresh the market to quickly update their orders to stay on top.
* Post multiple orders to bypass the 5 minute modify timer.
* Update their order to be the same amount lower than the next order every time.
* List a new order as soon as the old one was completed.
* Do all of that for obscenely long periods of time.

Really the only way I see to detect them is to access the server logs and see if they're doing that for periods of time simply not possible for a human or detect the interaction from the bot program in the client. Neither of those will CCP ever give you the ability to do.

I agree, I think you would be surprised how many people you think are bots actually are real players.
Never underestimate the ability of people to put up with tedious mind numbing tasks.
Rita Jita
Caldari Provisions
#33 - 2012-02-02 14:00:57 UTC
well i think having the names of people trading on the market would help with identifying the people who are trading round the clock non stop don't you ?

Founder of the "Haulers Channel"

Come Check It Out

Rita Jita
Caldari Provisions
#34 - 2012-02-02 14:03:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Rita Jita
Quote:
Please explain what makes you suspect they're a bot.


OMG again with the pointless question, the fact is people use bots
make it easier to detect these people by showing trader names in market window.

Founder of the "Haulers Channel"

Come Check It Out

Trading Mathilda
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#35 - 2012-02-02 15:24:08 UTC
Rita Jita wrote:
OMG again with the pointless question, the fact is people use bots
make it easier to detect these people by showing trader names in market window.


that makes no sense at all. How easy would it be to identify a margin trading scammer then?
This will take away a lot of fun from the game. People love to get scammed but if you show the trader names in the market overview there is a big probability that people wont let them selves get scammed anymore.
Jan VanRijkdom
House VanRijkdom Trading Conglomerate
#36 - 2012-02-02 15:50:23 UTC
Bots are annoying.

That being said, I still make plenty of isk trading.

There are many items to be traded, they're not all 'botted'.

.

SgtGoodEnd
BTSK
#37 - 2012-02-02 16:29:26 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Botting in eve is like speeding on the highway/motorway/autobahn, it's officially against the rules but loads of people do it




German autobahns have no general speed limit, just saying...


OllieNorth wrote:
Edit: Market trading isn't PVP . . . youmustbenewhere.jpg



Hmm, let's elaborate on this for little while, I place an order in the market, this other guy/gall adjusts his/hers in order to undercut mine, we keep doing this, well, like forever, that is what? Solo play? Could have given better examples I'm sure, however, I'm tired and ran out of weed, so am a bit cranky at the moment. Youneedtogetyourfactsstraight.jpg
Terajima Kazumi
Perkone
Caldari State
#38 - 2012-02-03 18:47:19 UTC
I am skeptical that the 'obvious market bots' are actually market bots. Coding a bot that behaves like a human is trivially easy; adding slight, pseudo-random variation in delays between actions, writing algorithms to avoid manipulation by other players; using multiple accounts to control the same market; frequently cancelling poorly performing orders to seek out and identify better orders. This last one is probably key. Humans tend to stubbornly stick to the orders they have active rather than seek out new ones (this is why, when you discover a new item to exploit and nobody else is buying it, it takes a few days before you're competing with a lot of people). It takes a lot more effort to hunt out new orders than to update existing ones. A bot doesn't have this shortcoming though. It could scan the market rapidly and tirelessly, cancelling the orders that under preform in favor of greener pastures and in the process, regularly shift ISK and activity around to avoid drawing suspicion.

At least, these are the sorts of things that I would do if I were going to write a market bot, and I've only given the problem a few minutes of though. I'd like to think my fellow code monkeys (yes, even the ones that write bots) are intelligent enough to write intelligent bots.

At any rate, market manipulation is where the real money is at. It's much more lucrative and much less time consuming than .01 ISKing. And given the level of intelligence that is required to perform this activity well, I don't think you'll see any market bot sophisticated enough to compete with you at it.
Maxpie
MUSE LLP
RAZOR Alliance
#39 - 2012-02-03 21:42:38 UTC
I believe 'obvious bots' are the ones that .01 up the top order instantly and every time. When I used to trade a bit, from time to time I would see this. Regardless, it's silly to claim they don't exist - I just did a quick Google in another tab and it seems pretty clear. We need more tools to detect cheaters - many of us would (and do) actively go after them and report them. I can only think of one reason why someone wouldn't want us to do so.

No good deed goes unpunished

Jacob Stiller
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2012-02-03 22:43:09 UTC
Maxpie wrote:
I believe 'obvious bots' are the ones that .01 up the top order instantly and every time. When I used to trade a bit, from time to time I would see this. Regardless, it's silly to claim they don't exist - I just did a quick Google in another tab and it seems pretty clear. We need more tools to detect cheaters - many of us would (and do) actively go after them and report them. I can only think of one reason why someone wouldn't want us to do so.


Bingo. A human can be very efficient at updating orders over reasonable periods of time but noone can keep it up 23.5/7.
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