Warfare & Tactics

In a broader sense.
So what we want is a system?
That combines some or all of what ?
PvP
Missions
Plexing

We want a way to control/change/interact with it?

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May be a triangle that hes a level of influence with each other?
Or should some other format based sovereignty control influence some or all?
PvP
|......\
|........\
|..........\
|............\
|..............\
|................\
|..................\
|....................\
Plexing--------Missions

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Or we want parts fixed or Iterated or ignored?
plexing
PvP
rewards
GGC interactions with certain acts
Missions
NPC interaction in .5-1.0 systems
Sovereignty

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Are any parts too mutually exclusive?
Should any be?

Are you kidding me??? Really because someone sucks at PVP means they shouldn't PVP??? Can you say elitist for me. I'll through this in the "I dont have a rational argument so I will just talk jibberish bucket"

Where did my post saying that I spent a month losing ships have anything to do with your response? I was pointing out an example that refutes the idea that FW missions should be based on VP or PVP.......not a rationale about how many kills you have....again Elitist maybe?

Once again...what is wrong with farming. You can farm asteroids, you can farm belts, you can farm ANY TYPE OF LVL 4.

This whole vendetta over missions clearly is coming down to "people are sinking my lp to isk ratio". The argument for FW missions has been completely torn apart and your argument (and others about fw missions needing a nerf bat of some type) are completely ridiculous. They are not logical nor address any of the results/changes that I have mentioned would happen.

The common tone is "I dont care people shouldnt be able to use lowsec for isk) that is the problem and the words you are screaming however you sugar code it.

Get over it.

You can also blob up a system and run level 5s risk free in low sec. And anyway comparing FW missions to other low sec missions that notoroiously have horrible participation is not really a good measure is it?

How is the risk reward of fw missions compared to high sec level 4s? I think its pretty balanced. High sec incursions? Its stupid to run FW missions.

How is the risk reward of fw missions compared to carebearing in sov null sec? I don't have any first hand knowledge but I think it's in line. There is much more risk doing fw missions because the systems are much more crowded. When I hear null sec bears complaining about afk cloakers I don't even know what to think. If I tried to only do FW misssions in completely empty systems I would likely only make about 10 million isk per hour. Not only do we have to do missions in busy systems we send up a beacon as to where we are. "dinners ready!!!"

From what I hear npc null sec missions are also in line.

Wormhole pve? I think they are making much more than fw missions for very little in the way of risk. If the risk was high they wouldn't be flying billion isk ships. That is the true test. One nice thing about bombers is they are cheap as is a speed tanking frigate. Why do we care about them being cheap? Risk.

You can catch bombers if that is what you are after. Its boring work yes. But if you are going to try to be a pirate and actually catch defenseless pve ships than you should have a bit more time on your hands - working as intended.

That is where you are wrong they are safe because YOU AS A PLAYER are not doing anything about. CCP gave you a loaded gun and said hunt them down. You say.....meh its a bomber so whatever.

Your problem not mine. It has been said before "You are lazy" the ability to stop fw missioning is there.

You as a pilot are allowing the missioner safe haven.


edit: Thats fine to disagree but stop going out and trying to change something that is working as intended.

Here's the standard argument: If FW missions are so easy, why don't all the carebear L4 mission runners run them? FW missions are self correcting. They are easy, so people put their alts into them and module prices go down. As they go down people will decide to do other things to make their isk.

Give me the ability to fail FW missions and I will personally remove all these damn carebear alts from the Caldari militia! Do it!

I'm not apologizing for bringing up bombers. I wouldnt keep saying that if there werent a 48 page threadnought that is chock full of complaints about how easy FW missions are. This thread is simply one of the dozen offshoots that have splintered off regarding FW over the years.

I was merely apologizing because for whatever reason, in this thread I've come off sounding like a know-it-all or someone who cares about myself above the group, and that I should take responsibility for.

The bottom line is - I DONT think we can agree on everything as a community, even plexing itself is still controversial as there are those that think its 98% fixed and those that still think it needs to be overhauled.

When I say we as a community need to approach CCP with one voice, I don't mean we approach CCP with one set of proposed fixes. That will never happen, not through my efforts, or anyone elses. Every faction has its own activities in their own sector, own issues, and own ideas for what needs to be fixed first.

I don't think a proper community representative needs to have unity on how to fix Faction Warfare to be effective. The bottom line is that we all share some very strong cultural values, the most important being that we are here in FW because we enjoy the small-scale PvP that it fosters, and that we don't have the patience for complicated 0.0 style politics or the emptiness of 0.0 space. These are core values that have been completely missed at the uppermost level of CCP and the CSM - and while we've succeeded in convincing them to begin working on FW again, we have not been able to get across why the plan proposed in the minutes will destroy the feature as we know it.

No one in this thread nor in the main threadnought is seriously arguing that CCP "gets it" with regards to Faction Warfare. So we have a choice. We can bicker about the details all day long - missions, plexes, rewards, you name it - and still fail to achieve a single unified solution. If that becomes the requirement needed to say "the FW has a voice, listen to it" and push this at the CSM level - we can just stop wasting our time now and admit defeat, and allow another nullsec-dominated council to elect itself this spring and decide what happens to us this summer.

I can't live with that, and I dont think you guys can either. My efforts instead have been to keep the conversation going - whether we agree or not. The longer we discuss - unity or otherwise, the more effective ideas float to the surface. That's how brainstorming works. We only fail when we stop talking and walk away.

So yes, missions are totally on the table for discussion, Bomber. So are plexes. So are Sov consequences. All of them matter, and all of them are worthy of debate.

The most important thing to me at this point isn't in getting my ideas implemented, or getting us all to agree (both objectives would fail), its getting us all to work together to send the message to CCP that this is our feature, not nullsec's.

That objective is certainly within our grasp, but ONLY if we leave the animosity towards one another on the server and respect each other for taking the time to share feedback and ideas for the sake of the feature we all love. I have not always lived up to that standard, admittedly, and I appreciate everyone here that has spoken up to keep me in check.

Fair enough. I know full well not everyone will approve of my work. I just have to let the community majority decide that for themselves. I have only kept at this for so long because plenty of others have told me how much they appreciate what I am trying to do.

You are absolutely entitled to your opinions, I'm done arguing with you on them. There are plenty of others here that can respond to your comments, I don't have to do that myself, and I shouldn't if I can't stay respectful in the process. By all means, keep posting, you won't have another rebuttal from me, because this is the second time now you and I have butted heads and its not worth it to me to continue.

As for Ankhmorporkwhateverhernameis, I am unfamiliar with that individual. I wasn't always paying close attention to EvE politics, certainly not during my early days playing the game. There's no need to talk about them in this thread, which is about Warfare mechanics, but If anyone wants to send me a link to some information, I'm sure there's an entertaining story there.

This.

So, how do you make something rewarding that is tied to PVP, not PVE? Because if it is PVE it will be farmed by those who do not contribute to FW as a whole. And it needs a reward to encourage people to do it, and to finance the losses.

If the rewards at tied to pure PVP - just shooting people - it is easy to exploit. You just create an account in the opposing militia and shoot them over and over. So the reward cannot be linked to that.

So the question is, how do you create a system that is not easy to exploit, has ISK rewards, and contributes to FW?

This may have gotten lost with people spraying their superior factional pee pee on each other, but if they gave out LP for plexing, they could limit non-combatant farming by making them mission-based and placing restrictions on their frequency.

They could also "stamp" a system to a mission when you warp into a plex to prevent running away and opening a plex in another system for financial gain.

People would still do missions to make isk, but at least there would be an opportunity for positive peer pressure to do the plexes first to help out the war effort.

I think the reason there is less "FIX FW OMG" at the moment is because:

1) The two latest updates. They have brought a lot of people back online to check them out, temporarily bolstering activity across all of EVE, FW included.
2) A lot of the people in FW have moved on to other areas of EVE. I look in Minmatar Militia and while there are still a lot of old hats, there are a lot of faces missing in the crowd.

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Hans, I'm clearly biased having known you for a long time, but you are doing a phenomenal job in my opinion of attempting to take the viewpoints of four separate blocs of the FW community (which are divided even further in whatever cliques reside in the militias) and amalgamate a single unified opinion on current issues in Faction Warfare. There will always be those who disagree or those who are jealous of your positive progress for the state of FW.

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We can all agree that Plexes need to be reiterated. We can all agree that System Occupancy should mean something. We all agree that Faction Warfare isn't about the PvE, it's about the PvP the system engenders.

What we don't all agree on is how to go about improving Plexes, implementing meaningful System Occupancy and the type/regularity/scale of the PvP FW should be about.

However, the one sickness that ails FW is activity. I don't believe we would be complaining about FW if activity was high and PVP was around-the-clock. Change creates Publicity creates Interest creates Activity. At this point, I think any change that there is at least somewhat of a consensus on will be beneficial in attracting new interest and players to participate in Faction Warfare, something that needs to happen.