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Dev blog: Strategic Cruisers and You

First post
Author
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#101 - 2017-06-01 14:09:18 UTC
Elassus Herron wrote:

Lastly, something I'd like to suggest (someone upthread mentioned it as analogous to the Nestor, maybe?): give T3Cs a dedicated subsystems bay to carry rigs and SSs, and allow them to provide fitting services to other T3Cs. Then, if you have a gang of them, and are packing enough spare parts, you can re-fit SSs along with everything else on the fly, allowing T3Cs to fill their role of being adaptable and versatile, even while in enemy territory with no docking available.


Oh please this. I still remember my first flight into W-Space with a Legion. I had this crazy idea to fly with a Stealth-Legion, but to refit using stored subsystems and a mobile depot and run sites. But of course this meant my first flight was also rather short, since the tiny bit of free cargo space left over after carrying just a couple subsystems was filled up basically instantly.

Having a dedicated bay for refits would be even better than just making the cargo space larger.
Toxic Fuzz
Fuzz Industries
#102 - 2017-06-01 16:22:37 UTC
Pi Prophet wrote:
Let me tell you about T3 cruisers.

In Providence every night the Tengus roam through our territory. They can't be bubbled, can't be locked, and are cloaked. They carry cynos. They are the perfect scout ship. They lurk around, completely uncontested, like drones over Afghanistan. until they find a miner to pick on. Then they cyno in a fleet of 20 and hotdrop on the guy. Then as quick as they came, they cyno out, and the tengu persists to terrorize our region. We set up frigate camp with double sensor boosters and scripts for insta-lock, with heavy dps fleets. I haven't caught one yet We were in a fleet of 200 and we just had to pass by, because there wasn't a thing we could do to catch it. It is completely unfair to have a ship that powerful with the attributes of an interceptor. Even interceptors can't fit covert ops cloak. I am not even talking about their tank or firepower, just their inability to be caught. The nerf to the sig radius and mass will help our fast lock interceptor pilots tackle these things in a fair fight.

One solo pilot said he enjoys flying though gatecamps unharmed. Maybe there should be a cloaky nullified exploration ship. Just make it a frigate that can't fit cynos. Why should a cruiser fill the role of a scout in the first place?

No ship this powerful should be allowed to blast through our backyards terrorizing us without a way for us to defend ourselves.


What do you mean you cannot defend yourself? If they are opening a Cyno, and droping other ships on you then ship up, fly whatever you need to pilot to counter their 20 ships. You would have the same complaint it would seem, of any ship that can open a cyno and cannot be scanned down or d-scanned. Point is, there is a counter to your problem, to the cyno Tengu's you are talking about, but making nullification so that it captures all ships, there being no counter, would not be fair at all.

There should be a counter to every offensive or defensive strategy, regardless what you would like for people to believe there are counters to the effectiveness of someone opening a cyno and dropping a fleet on you. You are either just too lazy, too small, or too stuck in your ways to figure it our or imagine anything to counter it.

As a Tengu pilot, I get sick of hearing people whine and complain that they cannot catch a Tengu, and yet, there are plenty of examples of killmails of nullified Tengu's being caught and blown up. Dictor pilots get mad when they cannot catch every single ship they desire in their bubbles. They effectively block travel between systems. And yet, when a ship is able to disregard their bubbles they cry. Sometimes as I fly through their attempts to catch me in their bubble, and I see them rage in local, cursing the effectiveness of my tactics I imagine them standing on their office desk chair, trying to keep their balance as it rolls around, screaming, frothing at the mouth, jumping up and down while they jab their pointer finger at their computer screen blabbering about how interdiction nullification is unfair!

Personally I'm not about ganking anyone, not my thing, not my style. I understand their is a place in this virtual world for people who would play this game this way. But I also do not believe that there should be any ship without a counter. If you want to kill a Tengu there are ways to do it, a neut Strat is extremely well fitted for this exactly. Just man up, imagine something outside your static way of thinking, dream up a counter and stop crying about not being able to kill a ship because you absolutely refuse to imagine a way you can.

I say remove interdiction bubbles all together, you can still capture ships using insta lock and a warp scramble/web just as effectively as you can a warp bubble. So do away with them all together!
NImbex Diprivan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#103 - 2017-06-01 16:31:54 UTC
Pi Prophet wrote:
Let me tell you about T3 cruisers.

In Providence every night the Tengus roam through our territory. They can't be bubbled, can't be locked, and are cloaked. They carry cynos. They are the perfect scout ship. They lurk around, completely uncontested, like drones over Afghanistan. until they find a miner to pick on. Then they cyno in a fleet of 20 and hotdrop on the guy. Then as quick as they came, they cyno out, and the tengu persists to terrorize our region. We set up frigate camp with double sensor boosters and scripts for insta-lock, with heavy dps fleets. I haven't caught one yet We were in a fleet of 200 and we just had to pass by, because there wasn't a thing we could do to catch it. It is completely unfair to have a ship that powerful with the attributes of an interceptor. Even interceptors can't fit covert ops cloak. I am not even talking about their tank or firepower, just their inability to be caught. The nerf to the sig radius and mass will help our fast lock interceptor pilots tackle these things in a fair fight.

One solo pilot said he enjoys flying though gatecamps unharmed. Maybe there should be a cloaky nullified exploration ship. Just make it a frigate that can't fit cynos. Why should a cruiser fill the role of a scout in the first place?

No ship this powerful should be allowed to blast through our backyards terrorizing us without a way for us to defend ourselves.


It is enough to (combined) remove cyno ability and slow down nulified/cloaked warp speed. Complete solution for your complaint without versility nerf.
April rabbit
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#104 - 2017-06-01 16:57:21 UTC
Toxic Fuzz wrote:
... Sometimes as I fly through their attempts to catch me in their bubble, and I see them rage in local, cursing the effectiveness of my tactics...

What is this tactics actually? I hope it is more than putting proper subsystems and covert ops cloak? Cool
Gene Greyy
Pheonix Rising Corp
#105 - 2017-06-02 00:34:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Gene Greyy
Toxic Fuzz wrote:
I have noticed that CCP seems to be forcing people to play in Corporations, gearing all new content towards that end, pushing those of us who enjoy being solo players into a position where we will not advance or being to engage new content unless we join a corporation and play in mobs.

This has ultimately ruined most 1vs1 combat where groups gank singular players now instead of engaging in combat as it used to be.

It has created massive gate camps where the only way they can be avoided is to fit a Strategic Cruiser with interdiction nullification.

...

...

There are players who enjoy being able to play stealthy, to avoid forced battles and to be able to pick and choose their battles based on their STRATEGIC ability. Who enjoy being solo pirates, or who enjoy being able to enter a system and carefully plot and plan their way around all the offensive positions that attempt to catch them. It's the old game of cat and mouse. And yet, CCP again seems to be ignoring these players, and instead focused on forcing conflicts, forcing fights when this cat and mouse type play is so exhilarating.

If CCP goes through with changing these ships into something they are currently not. If they wish to de-evolve them into just another cruiser, if they are going to ruin solo gameplay or the ability to do combat sights solo, or all the other things the larger sig radius will ruin, the interdiction nullification removal will ruin, the reduction in the distance damage can be applied then there should be an option to recover those skill points so that they can be applied towards other things. Because honestly, these are the exact reasons why many of us have spent years of game play perfecting our skills in regards to strategic cruisers.

If CCPs ultimate goal is to ruin solo gameplay, I think they should come out and state it so, instead of silently removing all options for solo play, and forcing fights where they use to allow an option for a different type of gameplay.

...

TO say the very least I am not happy at all with the new suggested changes. Yet again just as with other ships it seems that CCP's true intent is to force people to join corporations, force people to play in mobs, force people to engage when otherwise they would prefer playing a different way, and to ruin ships that have a place in the game. And to leave wide gaping holes in a universe that if real would never allow them, would naturally fill those gaping holes with ships that excel at solo gameplay.

All new content, ships, changes, nerfs, "re-balancing" seem to be geared towards forcing solo players out of the game. It's been this way for years and it doesn't seem like it's going to change anytime soon. I fear that I am going to be looking for a new MMORPG to play in the very near future.




Well said!!! I'm grateful you posted this and very much appreciate your point-of-view. I've been feeling this way since about 2013 but, I've stuck with it thinking ...maybe...eventually... holding out a fools desperate hope... that CCP would eventually show some love for solo (or hell... I'd settle for small {less than 5} group play) game play.

Yet with every release, every patch, every feature, I felt like the devs were watching me play and taking bets on who could fork up my game worse. Frustration does not begin to describe my feelings. A close approximation, if you've ever watched bugs bunny and friends cartoons, there was this cat who would be minding his business trying to sleep or go get some food... just going about his day... and then out of nowhere, a young energetic puppy dog would sneak up on him... barking, growling, generally being a playful nuisance and the shock would send the poor cat flying through the air ending up with his hair standing on end, claws buried in the ceiling hanging upside down with this confused look like...what the F...just happened to me???? Hilarious, and wonderful entertainment for everyone else who chooses to be part of a mega corp/ mega alliance (not that there is anything wrong with that...if that's your thing, great, more power to you; in fact, without you, it would be a pretty boring game!!!) but.... Yeah, pretty much that.

And to those of you still laughing and getting ready to belittle and dismiss this post and then think of a new and clever way to ask for my stuff. I would simply ask, do you really want a game without uncontrolled/unsanctioned 1 on 1 combat (albeit rare, I admit) or just a challenging mouse to hunt??? Really??? And then the natural extension would be, how long till you get extremely bored with a game where you have just a few big alliances... Oh, wait... now serving big blue donuts and coffee, enjoy.

Notice, there is no hate toward anyone here, no snide comments on anyones particular style of play... I'm not suggesting anything particular with T3's at all; I'm only asking the devs to consider an alternative style of play and it does not have to come at the expense of anyone else's style of play (please remember it should be a sandbox and stop forcing a particular play style with the very large - and blunt - stick of game design!!!!).

It's just that I have a real love of this game and sadness at the lack of vision for something that used to really be a true sandbox game. It's not about safety (quite the opposite), it's not about isk, it's not about special favors!!!!!! It's about having fun and being able to choose how, when, and where I play (EDIT: OH yeah, almost forgot ...and have the tools to be able to survive/thrive)... no matter what anyone else is doing.

Again, thank you kindly for your post, I'm glad to know I am not alone.
Jimy F
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#106 - 2017-06-02 14:24:59 UTC
Pi Prophet wrote:
Let me tell you about T3 cruisers.

In Providence every night the Tengus roam through our territory. They can't be bubbled, can't be locked, and are cloaked. They carry cynos. They are the perfect scout ship. They lurk around, completely uncontested, like drones over Afghanistan. until they find a miner to pick on. Then they cyno in a fleet of 20 and hotdrop on the guy. Then as quick as they came, they cyno out, and the tengu persists to terrorize our region. We set up frigate camp with double sensor boosters and scripts for insta-lock, with heavy dps fleets. I haven't caught one yet We were in a fleet of 200 and we just had to pass by, because there wasn't a thing we could do to catch it. It is completely unfair to have a ship that powerful with the attributes of an interceptor. Even interceptors can't fit covert ops cloak. I am not even talking about their tank or firepower, just their inability to be caught. The nerf to the sig radius and mass will help our fast lock interceptor pilots tackle these things in a fair fight.

One solo pilot said he enjoys flying though gatecamps unharmed. Maybe there should be a cloaky nullified exploration ship. Just make it a frigate that can't fit cynos. Why should a cruiser fill the role of a scout in the first place?

No ship this powerful should be allowed to blast through our backyards terrorizing us without a way for us to defend ourselves.


Something is wrong with your story, if u have 200 ppl fleet, you will auto decloak any ship that jump to system. and if someone decide to live in null, but is new to game and don't know how to do in null, is his lack of knowlage. u can also declock that kinda ship at gate in small number of ppl if you know how, u angry me so much with that kinda things.
Arcin Hamir
Right Click Jump To
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#107 - 2017-06-02 14:35:08 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Arcin Hamir wrote:
Rather than some special rule for rigs on T3s that lets them be removed why not attach rigs (non-removeable ) to sub-systems?

Doing that would severely reduce the versatility of T3's.
Choice of subsystems and rigs is not always the same, it depends on what you want to do.


I rather thought that this was a major point of this entire review of T3s - I suggested this as it would allow for keeping the ship versatile but not creating a new rule for rigs (i.e. once you attach a rig to a sub-system that is it - nothing to stop you having several of the same sub-system with different rigs).
Mustache Dealer
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#108 - 2017-06-03 04:46:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Mustache Dealer
As a solo C3 farmer in a tengu that roams all over new eden, this is my typical routine:

1) Load up all needed subsystems (covert ops, nullification, emergent probe bonus, about 5-6 others). Load up MTU and mobile depo... space is very tight after this so I have to fill all 3 (4 if I drop the scan bonus sub) lows with cargo expanders. Whatever room I have left I'll fill with ammo.

2) I use a travel cloaky fit with the emergent sub to scan down sigs quickly as I travel through systems and check out wormholes. Once I find a decent one I'll scan down all the sigs to see how dangerous the hole might be.

3) Make a safe spot, deploy the depo and switch into my ratting or exploration fit.

4) When done ratting or if a hostile pops up on dscan, I warp back to the depo and quickly try to fit my cloak to hide out for a while or move on with everything in tow again.

Some QoL things I would love to see to make life easier for a nomad T3 explorer like me:

- Add a subsystem/rig only bay to T3s. Even shedding the 200-250m3 or so of cargo space is more ammo I can bring with me on a long trip. Make it big enough to fit at least 1 of every subsystem available for that T3. It'd be great to be able to fit some rigs in there too since we can swap them out now.

- I would love to be able to use the "strip fitting" function while in space like you can in stations. This would help with the repetitive dragging and dropping of modules and everything going offline all the time during the fitting process. Better yet, improve the saved fittings system while in space for T3s, so (as long as I have everything needed in cargo/sub bay) it will be a seamless process to switch between my ratting/exploration/cloaky travel fit with 1 or 2 clicks. The current state of fitting in space is really cumbersome and doesn't really work with T3s, especially when subsystems are getting switched out and altering your available slots throwing up a bunch of error notifications every single time. I would love not to have to manually drag/drop a dozen modules every time I need to switch out a fit.

- If the subsystem/rig refit bay idea doesn't work (or in addition to it), add an extra cargo bonus to the covert subsystem so there's a lot more room for hauling everything around on travel fits.

Looking forward to the overhaul next month. Swappable rigs will be excellent.
Blazemonger
Signal Cartel
EvE-Scout Enclave
#109 - 2017-06-04 23:39:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Blazemonger
Mustache Dealer wrote:

- Add a subsystem/rig only bay to T3s.


This.. CCPlease..

Oh, and allow T3C to refit from this bay without the need for Mobile Depot.. That by itself would give these ships so much more versatility. If as a balance you'd decide to immobalize the ship for say 30-40 seconds after a refit (call it recalibation timer or whatever) I can live with that as it would align with using a depot.

As a side note, I think having a separate ammo bay on cruisers and up would also not be a bad idea..


But the above may be a tad to progressive/radical for CCP to consider..
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#110 - 2017-06-05 03:20:12 UTC
Solo T3 Cruiser / Explorer Pilot here.

Gotta say CCP is definitely going overboard with all this so called Ship Re-balance stuff. When I started playing in 2008 I'd log into the game everyday for hours on end. However for the past couple of years now I've rarely log into the game. Seems to me Eve is no longer a player driven game where we can choose how we want to play it. Now it's all about how CCP wants us to play the game.

Goodbye to freedom of choice.

Ugh



DMC
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#111 - 2017-06-05 08:14:56 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Solo T3 Cruiser / Explorer Pilot here.

Gotta say CCP is definitely going overboard with all this so called Ship Re-balance stuff. When I started playing in 2008 I'd log into the game everyday for hours on end. However for the past couple of years now I've rarely log into the game. Seems to me Eve is no longer a player driven game where we can choose how we want to play it. Now it's all about how CCP wants us to play the game.

Goodbye to freedom of choice.

Ugh



DMC



In 2008, there was also a lot less choices of valid ships as certain ones were always considered the best of each class. Currently the ships are more balanced, meaning more of them are being flown.

Wormholer for life.

Erebus 'TheChin' Sundance
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2017-06-09 09:39:39 UTC

I have been following the focus group discussions and T3C work in progress sheet, what is clear is the difficulty CCP face here in making the ship less capable in certain group situations, but still a jolly good ship for solo activities. I must say I don't envy them in this.

The focus group seems to have turned out some good points, well done chaps, I had severe concerns the solo player perspective would be omitted completely. Good solid informative discussions and well put up arguments.

I suspect that this is more of a kill two birds with one stone approach. Due to the basic ship design CCP have been unable to release skins for this class of ship, while they do the physical redesign why not sort out the subsystems/stats to boot.

From the solo player perspective, It looks at this point like my jaunts into C4, C5 WH's will be harder, while harder is not a bad thing in anyway, in fact generally a good thing, I suspect with perpetual skill loss, it will turn out to be further into the realm of just not worth it anymore.

For my setup, I use a prot, it's fairly bling to help speed s**t up a bit. I currently use the interdiction/Drone Synth/Aug Cap/Nano Inj/Emergent locust subsystems. I'm sure fitting experts will have something to say about it but the reality is such that it gets in, does it's job, and gets out.
The interdiction sub is vital, without it it's good bye T3C fun in null/WH. I skip the covert sub, a solo player does not need cyno's etc, and getting the cloak skill to lvl5 helps speed up the time from uncloak to applying dps.
Once you are in the WH you don't even need to warp cloaked, it's a nice idea warping about unseen but you will always have to uncloak to do the sites. I have not had any issues with being stationary and cloaked while scanning.
I put 3 fed navy blasters in the highs, with a Med remote rep, salvager II and a faction cloak.
It's cap stable with the salvager, MWD and faction web running. Have to pulse the Med Armor Rep or Remote Rep depending on if the ship or drones are taking the hits.
It it by no means a perfect fit, it hits ~650 dps depending on drones used ofc, and with the MWD running it has a small whale sized sig of 880m. But it's such good fun.

Do we have any actual numbers for the sig increase? Or what the base lock ranges will be?

In regards the the reduction in available subsystems, improved ship info and swappable rigs I an not think of anything negative, but that's just me.

A little bit more cargo space would be nice... ...Or even better... ...a smaller TII mobile depot that can cloak...


...MWAAHahahahahahaha



Karmen Baric
Doomheim
#113 - 2017-06-16 15:01:32 UTC
Now that T3 will be fairly average, remove the skill loss part !!
Daniel Estrella
Intel Inc.
#114 - 2017-06-21 04:11:01 UTC
I have an idea what CCP could do regarding skillpoint loss. I think what is missing is options. So my idea is there should be an option like "cooldown timer" for strategic cruisers, to wait it out. I would say a proper timer would be like 2-4 weeks. Then you can chose between skillpoint loss and retraining the skills faster in 4-5 days or you decide to wait out the timer and have fun with it after timer runs out. You should get a warning if the timer is active that if you board the ship, you'll lose a skill by doing so. So it's up to you to decide.
dragonlord00420
Silver Guardians
Solyaris Chtonium
#115 - 2017-06-23 22:14:07 UTC
sorry if this question has been an asked and answered already but looking on test server i seen the enginering subsystem has been removed will we get the sp back from training those skills
Blazemonger
Signal Cartel
EvE-Scout Enclave
#116 - 2017-06-25 04:49:57 UTC
dragonlord00420 wrote:
sorry if this question has been an asked and answered already but looking on test server i seen the enginering subsystem has been removed will we get the sp back from training those skills


check your free SP on SiSi to find out..
noone kun
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#117 - 2017-06-25 14:22:52 UTC
i saw "subsystem bay" on tech 3 cruisers on singularity. it could be great to make it "fitting bay" and add role bonus to in-space refitting without mobile depot, nestor on carrier nearby. that would make those ships even more "flexible" - just as ccp wanted them to be. aslo, it will counter all that nerfs little bit.
Blazemonger
Signal Cartel
EvE-Scout Enclave
#118 - 2017-06-29 11:48:31 UTC
noone kun wrote:
i saw "subsystem bay" on tech 3 cruisers on singularity. it could be great to make it "fitting bay" and add role bonus to in-space refitting without mobile depot


This has been suggested/brought up several times by a number of people. Neither the FG nor CCP has pickd up on it or even brought it up in the FG discussion as there is no reference that I can find in the logs.

Seems it's not something considered viable by anyone but a number of players.
Kayle Saviant
Strategic Defense and Deployment Directive
#119 - 2017-07-01 08:27:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Kayle Saviant
As an Incursion FC, I would like to request the following feature from T3's (especially having had regard to the previous command boost rebalance).

Seeing as you are going to combine T3 command subsystem with a logi subsystem, what I would like to see is the following:

T3 Ship [Tengu/Loki esp, but any would work]

[High Slots]
Large Remote Shield Booster II (or armor for armor)
Large Remote Shield Booster II (or armor for armor)
Large Remote Shield Booster II (or armor for armor)
Large Remote Shield Booster II (or armor for armor)
Command Booster (esp in practical use for skirmish or info)

[Medium Slots]
1x 10MN AB
Adaptive Invuln II
Adaptive Invuln II
Cap or Something Mod (i.e. resist amp)
Cap Mod or room for Large Shield Extender

[Low Slots]
Damage Control II
Cap Mod
Cap Mod
Cap Mod

[Rigs]
Em / Expl Hole / I.e. Medium Anti Em Screen
Core Def Shield Extender /Trimark
Core Def Shield Extender /Trimark

Looking at subsystem skills the main thing would be comparative range, falloff and transfer effectiveness to existing logi.

Here is for hoping . . .
Kayle Saviant
Strategic Defense and Deployment Directive
#120 - 2017-07-01 12:24:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Kayle Saviant
SiSi Evaluation of 1/7/2017

T3 Logis Refit

[Loki, Loki-Stix]
Overdrive Injector System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Damage Control II

Large Cap Battery II
Large Cap Battery II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
10MN Afterburner II

Medium Remote Shield Booster II
Medium Remote Shield Booster II
Medium Remote Shield Booster II
Medium Remote Shield Booster II
Medium Remote Shield Booster II
Medium Remote Shield Booster II
Skirmish Command Burst II

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I

Loki Core - Augmented Nuclear Reactor
Loki Defensive - Augmented Durability
Loki Offensive - Support Processor
Loki Propulsion - Wake Limiter



[Tengu, LogiGu]
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Damage Control II

EM Ward Amplifier II
Large Cap Battery II
Cap Recharger II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
10MN Afterburner II

Medium Remote Shield Booster II
Medium Remote Shield Booster II
Medium Remote Shield Booster II
Medium Remote Shield Booster II
Medium Remote Shield Booster II
Medium Remote Shield Booster II
Skirmish Command Burst II

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II

Tengu Core - Augmented Graviton Reactor
Tengu Defensive - Supplemental Screening
Tengu Offensive - Support Processor
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst

So I got them cap stable T2 - we will of course upgrade them to faction

Can tinker with the fits to make them better - rigs in particular.

Large Remote Shield does 680 (x4)= 2720 (plus effectiveness boost)
Pithum A-Type Medium Remote Shield Booster does 508 (x6) = 3480

Reps comparable therefore

Tengu a little over 32 k tank on T2 / 212 m/s
Loki 23.8k tank with 260 m/s


http://imgur.com/a/9a48i

Interim Evaluation: Seems to be ok: Would like a smidge ( I guess about 2-3k ehp) more tank for both, but okayish

A basi is about 550, Scimi about 870, both Tengu with T2 AB 628 m/s, Loki with Gist A about 881