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Crime & Punishment

 
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Hi sec war deccers (pvp carebears)

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Marcus Binchiette
Federal Vanguard
#81 - 2017-06-23 12:24:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcus Binchiette
Sure, I understand that. I'm just saying that you get what you put into it. So, if you're going for quantity over quality of wardecs then you're more likely to be engaged in a 'fishing expedition'. Whereby you camp target rich systems in the hopes of finding a kill.

If that works for you then by all means go for it. Though, it always amazes me how susceptible we all are to our own habits. A little knowledge, a little luck, and some educated guesswork can go a long way.

I mean. Heck, if you gave each of your members the assignment of scoping out a target. Maybe a couple of hours work with an alt over a week or two. You might get some pretty damned interesting results - and if you pay your hunters a bonus based on the outcomes of their respective wars the incentive would be there... Maybe if your merc corp got known for the ferocity of its wardecs people would pay more for your services. Just a thought.
Lord Razpataz
Devils Rejects 666
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#82 - 2017-06-23 23:34:53 UTC
Marcus Binchiette wrote:
Sure, I understand that. I'm just saying that you get what you put into it. So, if you're going for quantity over quality of wardecs then you're more likely to be engaged in a 'fishing expedition'. Whereby you camp target rich systems in the hopes of finding a kill.

If that works for you then by all means go for it. Though, it always amazes me how susceptible we all are to our own habits. A little knowledge, a little luck, and some educated guesswork can go a long way.

I mean. Heck, if you gave each of your members the assignment of scoping out a target. Maybe a couple of hours work with an alt over a week or two. You might get some pretty damned interesting results - and if you pay your hunters a bonus based on the outcomes of their respective wars the incentive would be there... Maybe if your merc corp got known for the ferocity of its wardecs people would pay more for your services. Just a thought.


In a perfect world.. yes.

But... from experience from running Devils for 6 years doing highsec merc jobs I have to say it is not that simple.
And I've had this discussion with people several times over the last year.. that apparently know better how mercs in eve operate. Shocked

But since you seem to know how it should done I have some questions:

(hypothetically, you are a CEO of a well known 50 man alliance with 10-20% activity)

1, How many contracts would you take on at the same time?
2, How many wars would you need to keep your guys fed with content/kills? Or what other content to keep them busy?
3, How long would you need for you research period before you could dec the target?
4, How much would you pay your hunters?
5, And finally.. how much would all that work cost per contract?

I tried my best holding on to the old school hunting but for the last 3 years most merc entities have chosen the easy way, aka blanket decs. That trend started way before the watchlist change, but after now the only viable way to do wardecs. Your way.. my way.. is just to much work for the members. Trust me.. I've tried.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#83 - 2017-06-24 08:39:51 UTC
Lord Razpataz wrote:
Marcus Binchiette wrote:
Sure, I understand that. I'm just saying that you get what you put into it. So, if you're going for quantity over quality of wardecs then you're more likely to be engaged in a 'fishing expedition'. Whereby you camp target rich systems in the hopes of finding a kill.

If that works for you then by all means go for it. Though, it always amazes me how susceptible we all are to our own habits. A little knowledge, a little luck, and some educated guesswork can go a long way.

I mean. Heck, if you gave each of your members the assignment of scoping out a target. Maybe a couple of hours work with an alt over a week or two. You might get some pretty damned interesting results - and if you pay your hunters a bonus based on the outcomes of their respective wars the incentive would be there... Maybe if your merc corp got known for the ferocity of its wardecs people would pay more for your services. Just a thought.


In a perfect world.. yes.

But... from experience from running Devils for 6 years doing highsec merc jobs I have to say it is not that simple.
And I've had this discussion with people several times over the last year.. that apparently know better how mercs in eve operate. Shocked

But since you seem to know how it should done I have some questions:

(hypothetically, you are a CEO of a well known 50 man alliance with 10-20% activity)

1, How many contracts would you take on at the same time?
2, How many wars would you need to keep your guys fed with content/kills? Or what other content to keep them busy?
3, How long would you need for you research period before you could dec the target?
4, How much would you pay your hunters?
5, And finally.. how much would all that work cost per contract?

I tried my best holding on to the old school hunting but for the last 3 years most merc entities have chosen the easy way, aka blanket decs. That trend started way before the watchlist change, but after now the only viable way to do wardecs. Your way.. my way.. is just to much work for the members. Trust me.. I've tried.


I was telling people that the trend started long before the watch list changes and I got told I was talking pap, I am glad to see you say that.

And I would agree that this is a lot of work, having done the research observation part myself on a few targets that a friend wanted blown up for revenge.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#84 - 2017-06-24 09:19:53 UTC
The full on deep legwork approach to war is a great idea in my opinion when it comes to a planned out long-term conflict with perhaps a rival corp that's making life unpleasant for you. This is exactly how you deal with matters on your own terms.
As far as merc work it just doesn't work.

Raz hit on an important point there when it comes down to the payment of hunters.

Analogy, years ago my father (who you may recall from the semi-infamous squirrel post) was running a T-shirt graphics design business. He took great pride in the quality of his work, which to be fair was superb. Unfortunately he was using vinyl transfers for ALL of his shirts. Now, to process a proper vinyl transfer requires a patient individual who is willing to take a razor sharp knife and excise everything that is not part of the design from the transfer plate. This was time consuming, to the tune of nearly an hour per transfer. Eventually I had to ask, after spending many hours hunched over and picking away with my little knife, 'hey... dad? How much do you charge per shirt on these?'. His response was that of a very reasonable price when it came to such shirts.
I blinked.
I braced myself.
I spoke.
'Dad, you do realize that what you charge for one of these shirts is less than what a menial laborer would expect as compensation for the time it took them to finish the job?'
He just looked at me.
Then comprehension set in.
There was literally no way for him to turn a profit this way unless he either did the job himself or conscripted family to perform the labor for free.
Fortunately, I had previous experience on the matter and explained the concept of screen printing to him... but I digress.

Folks talk about opportunity cost when referring to mining. This whole notion that the time you spend gathering those minerals is EXACTLY what makes them not actually free. The same can be applied when it comes to wardec costs. Eventually the labor costs to properly prosecute an effective war become so high that the consumer will no longer be able to afford it.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#85 - 2017-06-24 10:10:39 UTC
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
The full on deep legwork approach to war is a great idea in my opinion when it comes to a planned out long-term conflict with perhaps a rival corp that's making life unpleasant for you. This is exactly how you deal with matters on your own terms.
As far as merc work it just doesn't work.

Raz hit on an important point there when it comes down to the payment of hunters.

Analogy, years ago my father (who you may recall from the semi-infamous squirrel post) was running a T-shirt graphics design business. He took great pride in the quality of his work, which to be fair was superb. Unfortunately he was using vinyl transfers for ALL of his shirts. Now, to process a proper vinyl transfer requires a patient individual who is willing to take a razor sharp knife and excise everything that is not part of the design from the transfer plate. This was time consuming, to the tune of nearly an hour per transfer. Eventually I had to ask, after spending many hours hunched over and picking away with my little knife, 'hey... dad? How much do you charge per shirt on these?'. His response was that of a very reasonable price when it came to such shirts.
I blinked.
I braced myself.
I spoke.
'Dad, you do realize that what you charge for one of these shirts is less than what a menial laborer would expect as compensation for the time it took them to finish the job?'
He just looked at me.
Then comprehension set in.
There was literally no way for him to turn a profit this way unless he either did the job himself or conscripted family to perform the labor for free.
Fortunately, I had previous experience on the matter and explained the concept of screen printing to him... but I digress.

Folks talk about opportunity cost when referring to mining. This whole notion that the time you spend gathering those minerals is EXACTLY what makes them not actually free. The same can be applied when it comes to wardec costs. Eventually the labor costs to properly prosecute an effective war become so high that the consumer will no longer be able to afford it.


Omar, what that tells me is that a hunter killer group like DWA should be part of a larger less focused group such as VMG, where your more time expensive and difficult work would be supported by their blanket war decs and you would add value by the sheer fear factor that this large merc group does actually hunt instead of saying that they do and never in fact hunt except if it is a JF. There are such things as loss leaders that give value to the overall brand.

When I first started playing I was not aware of how much data was just handed to people on a plate, I was in NPC null and I was ratting, I thought well I need to hide my activity, so I blew up my wrecks, a week later while checking the map for kills I noticed that there was data on the number of NPC kills in system, I was pretty annoyed because it was just free intel enabling people to zero in on targets and I realised that this game was not quite what I thought it was, so at that point I monitored that map so that my kill rate of rats looked less attractive as compared to other systems.

It then becomes a matter of prespective in terms of what you are used to within the games mechanics. If the watch list had never existed in the prior format would you have developed into a hunter killer?

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Saeger1737
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#86 - 2017-06-24 10:34:29 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
The full on deep legwork approach to war is a great idea in my opinion when it comes to a planned out long-term conflict with perhaps a rival corp that's making life unpleasant for you. This is exactly how you deal with matters on your own terms.
As far as merc work it just doesn't work.

Raz hit on an important point there when it comes down to the payment of hunters.

Analogy, years ago my father (who you may recall from the semi-infamous squirrel post) was running a T-shirt graphics design business. He took great pride in the quality of his work, which to be fair was superb. Unfortunately he was using vinyl transfers for ALL of his shirts. Now, to process a proper vinyl transfer requires a patient individual who is willing to take a razor sharp knife and excise everything that is not part of the design from the transfer plate. This was time consuming, to the tune of nearly an hour per transfer. Eventually I had to ask, after spending many hours hunched over and picking away with my little knife, 'hey... dad? How much do you charge per shirt on these?'. His response was that of a very reasonable price when it came to such shirts.
I blinked.
I braced myself.
I spoke.
'Dad, you do realize that what you charge for one of these shirts is less than what a menial laborer would expect as compensation for the time it took them to finish the job?'
He just looked at me.
Then comprehension set in.
There was literally no way for him to turn a profit this way unless he either did the job himself or conscripted family to perform the labor for free.
Fortunately, I had previous experience on the matter and explained the concept of screen printing to him... but I digress.

Folks talk about opportunity cost when referring to mining. This whole notion that the time you spend gathering those minerals is EXACTLY what makes them not actually free. The same can be applied when it comes to wardec costs. Eventually the labor costs to properly prosecute an effective war become so high that the consumer will no longer be able to afford it.


Omar, what that tells me is that a hunter killer group like DWA should be part of a larger less focused group such as VMG, where your more time expensive and difficult work would be supported by their blanket war decs and you would add value by the sheer fear factor that this large merc group does actually hunt instead of saying that they do and never in fact hunt except if it is a JF. There are such things as loss leaders that give value to the overall brand.

When I first started playing I was not aware of how much data was just handed to people on a plate, I was in NPC null and I was ratting, I thought well I need to hide my activity, so I blew up my wrecks, a week later while checking the map for kills I noticed that there was data on the number of NPC kills in system, I was pretty annoyed because it was just free intel enabling people to zero in on targets and I realised that this game was not quite what I thought it was, so at that point I monitored that map so that my kill rate of rats looked less attractive as compared to other systems.

It then becomes a matter of prespective in terms of what you are used to within the games mechanics. If the watch list had never existed in the prior format would you have developed into a hunter killer?

Hunter killer would've still existed but would of just been for a specific time zone, making them the go to guy for time off the day and based off their successes so would the Merc corp or alliance reputation. If there was no watchlist prior I think there would be more goon Titans alive, I believe this is pretty much why the watchlist was changed, save the capitals, save the whales screw Everyone else.

MERC WITH A MOUTH, Send me DPS and my fleet will double it back! Special offer!
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#87 - 2017-06-24 11:03:19 UTC
Saeger1737 wrote:
Hunter killer would've still existed but would of just been for a specific time zone, making them the go to guy for time off the day and based off their successes so would the Merc corp or alliance reputation. If there was no watchlist prior I think there would be more goon Titans alive, I believe this is pretty much why the watchlist was changed, save the capitals, save the whales screw Everyone else.


It was more to do with stopping fights because people would stand down when all the caps started logging in, not to save capitals, in effect it did make null sec more interesting, but was another kick in the teeth for hisec. I keep hoping that CCP do something for those that actually hunt.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Lord Razpataz
Devils Rejects 666
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#88 - 2017-06-24 11:56:43 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
The full on deep legwork approach to war is a great idea in my opinion when it comes to a planned out long-term conflict with perhaps a rival corp that's making life unpleasant for you. This is exactly how you deal with matters on your own terms.
As far as merc work it just doesn't work.

Raz hit on an important point there when it comes down to the payment of hunters.

Analogy, years ago my father (who you may recall from the semi-infamous squirrel post) was running a T-shirt graphics design business. He took great pride in the quality of his work, which to be fair was superb. Unfortunately he was using vinyl transfers for ALL of his shirts. Now, to process a proper vinyl transfer requires a patient individual who is willing to take a razor sharp knife and excise everything that is not part of the design from the transfer plate. This was time consuming, to the tune of nearly an hour per transfer. Eventually I had to ask, after spending many hours hunched over and picking away with my little knife, 'hey... dad? How much do you charge per shirt on these?'. His response was that of a very reasonable price when it came to such shirts.
I blinked.
I braced myself.
I spoke.
'Dad, you do realize that what you charge for one of these shirts is less than what a menial laborer would expect as compensation for the time it took them to finish the job?'
He just looked at me.
Then comprehension set in.
There was literally no way for him to turn a profit this way unless he either did the job himself or conscripted family to perform the labor for free.
Fortunately, I had previous experience on the matter and explained the concept of screen printing to him... but I digress.

Folks talk about opportunity cost when referring to mining. This whole notion that the time you spend gathering those minerals is EXACTLY what makes them not actually free. The same can be applied when it comes to wardec costs. Eventually the labor costs to properly prosecute an effective war become so high that the consumer will no longer be able to afford it.


Omar, what that tells me is that a hunter killer group like DWA should be part of a larger less focused group such as VMG, where your more time expensive and difficult work would be supported by their blanket war decs and you would add value by the sheer fear factor that this large merc group does actually hunt instead of saying that they do and never in fact hunt except if it is a JF. There are such things as loss leaders that give value to the overall brand.

When I first started playing I was not aware of how much data was just handed to people on a plate, I was in NPC null and I was ratting, I thought well I need to hide my activity, so I blew up my wrecks, a week later while checking the map for kills I noticed that there was data on the number of NPC kills in system, I was pretty annoyed because it was just free intel enabling people to zero in on targets and I realised that this game was not quite what I thought it was, so at that point I monitored that map so that my kill rate of rats looked less attractive as compared to other systems.

It then becomes a matter of prespective in terms of what you are used to within the games mechanics. If the watch list had never existed in the prior format would you have developed into a hunter killer?


From experience people choose the easy way.. If a group of hunters have the option to have more content by sitting still and wait, they tend to do that.. Even the most skilled hunter will end up on a hub/gate with the other lazy *******...

There is a reason most merc groups these days have over 100 wars going, that is keep their lazy members fed with content.
How long do you think you would work your ass off while seeing your buddies blapping low hanging big juicy fruit without moving a finger before joining them?

This is why we (Devils) prided ourself on just doing the old school hunting instead of joining the "new trend", just because our guys didnt have any other option.. with the few focused wars sitting still and wait was not an option, you would get less content by doing that. (I lost alot of players joining other mercs over the years because of that.) But I would claim I had the most dedicated hunters in highsec.

I would say the former hunters using watchlist as a tool was content creators, without said tool... less content is made for the guys who cant bother to put some work into their kills.

Oh and Drac.. I have never said the "Trend" is a new thing, the point of our previous discussions has been that its now the only viable option. How can I claim to have been against hubcamping and blanket decs since I've started without it being there? The "Trend" started with Privateers I think, then 0rphanage, then Marmite, and now eventually everyone Blink
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#89 - 2017-06-24 12:28:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Lord Razpataz wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
The full on deep legwork approach to war is a great idea in my opinion when it comes to a planned out long-term conflict with perhaps a rival corp that's making life unpleasant for you. This is exactly how you deal with matters on your own terms.
As far as merc work it just doesn't work.

Raz hit on an important point there when it comes down to the payment of hunters.

Analogy, years ago my father (who you may recall from the semi-infamous squirrel post) was running a T-shirt graphics design business. He took great pride in the quality of his work, which to be fair was superb. Unfortunately he was using vinyl transfers for ALL of his shirts. Now, to process a proper vinyl transfer requires a patient individual who is willing to take a razor sharp knife and excise everything that is not part of the design from the transfer plate. This was time consuming, to the tune of nearly an hour per transfer. Eventually I had to ask, after spending many hours hunched over and picking away with my little knife, 'hey... dad? How much do you charge per shirt on these?'. His response was that of a very reasonable price when it came to such shirts.
I blinked.
I braced myself.
I spoke.
'Dad, you do realize that what you charge for one of these shirts is less than what a menial laborer would expect as compensation for the time it took them to finish the job?'
He just looked at me.
Then comprehension set in.
There was literally no way for him to turn a profit this way unless he either did the job himself or conscripted family to perform the labor for free.
Fortunately, I had previous experience on the matter and explained the concept of screen printing to him... but I digress.

Folks talk about opportunity cost when referring to mining. This whole notion that the time you spend gathering those minerals is EXACTLY what makes them not actually free. The same can be applied when it comes to wardec costs. Eventually the labor costs to properly prosecute an effective war become so high that the consumer will no longer be able to afford it.


Omar, what that tells me is that a hunter killer group like DWA should be part of a larger less focused group such as VMG, where your more time expensive and difficult work would be supported by their blanket war decs and you would add value by the sheer fear factor that this large merc group does actually hunt instead of saying that they do and never in fact hunt except if it is a JF. There are such things as loss leaders that give value to the overall brand.

When I first started playing I was not aware of how much data was just handed to people on a plate, I was in NPC null and I was ratting, I thought well I need to hide my activity, so I blew up my wrecks, a week later while checking the map for kills I noticed that there was data on the number of NPC kills in system, I was pretty annoyed because it was just free intel enabling people to zero in on targets and I realised that this game was not quite what I thought it was, so at that point I monitored that map so that my kill rate of rats looked less attractive as compared to other systems.

It then becomes a matter of prespective in terms of what you are used to within the games mechanics. If the watch list had never existed in the prior format would you have developed into a hunter killer?


From experience people choose the easy way.. If a group of hunters have the option to have more content by sitting still and wait, they tend to do that.. Even the most skilled hunter will end up on a hub/gate with the other lazy *******...

There is a reason most merc groups these days have over 100 wars going, that is keep their lazy members fed with content.
How long do you think you would work your ass off while seeing your buddies blapping low hanging big juicy fruit without moving a finger before joining them?

This is why we (Devils) prided ourself on just doing the old school hunting instead of joining the "new trend", just because our guys didnt have any other option.. with the few focused wars sitting still and wait was not an option, you would get less content by doing that. (I lost alot of players joining other mercs over the years because of that.) But I would claim I had the most dedicated hunters in highsec.

I would say the former hunters using watchlist as a tool was content creators, without said tool... less content is made for the guys who cant bother to put some work into their kills.

Oh and Drac.. I have never said the "Trend" is a new thing, the point of our previous discussions has been that its now the only viable option. How can I claim to have been against hubcamping and blanket decs since I've started without it being there? The "Trend" started with Privateers I think, then 0rphanage, then Marmite, and now eventually everyone Blink


Yeah I agree, I prefer to hunt people coming into our pocket rather than going hunting out and about, which is more difficult.

Sorry if you thought I meant you, you never said it was not a trend before the watch list change, but Ralph did in previous threads that I talked about this happening before the watch list change and I had other people saying I was wrong, just good to see you state it so directly which I liked a lot. I should point out that I knew people who were in the Privateers and Orphanage.

Have you had anything back from CCP on this?

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Lord Razpataz
Devils Rejects 666
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#90 - 2017-06-24 13:09:58 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Have you had anything back from CCP on this?

Well.. after months of bitching on a respons on the feedback thread we got this a year ago.
Since then its been there's nothing new.. other than repeats of the previous statement.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#91 - 2017-06-24 13:16:21 UTC
Lord Razpataz wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Have you had anything back from CCP on this?

Well.. after months of bitching on a respons on the feedback thread we got this a year ago.
Since then its been there's nothing new.. other than repeats of the previous statement.


Yeah I saw that and noted this:

Quote:

We think there is some potential for the return of similar, but counterable, functionality in the future. When we have concrete designs we'll share them with you and be very interested in your feedback.


I was hoping they had moved a bit more on this, oh well...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp