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Crime & Punishment

 
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Hi sec war deccers (pvp carebears)

First post
Author
Marcus Binchiette
Federal Vanguard
Evictus.
#61 - 2017-06-13 11:40:53 UTC
Natural CloneKiller wrote:
CMDR-HerpyDerpy Hurishima wrote:
You could have some fun by getting your entire corp together in cheap pvp fit ships and going out on a fuckfest on them XD say gf in local if you lose and **** :p would be a fun investment in their time and they might leave you alone if you **** on them



So true. Fight back and have some fun.


Not really. In this siduation the defenders have nothing to gain by combat. In most cases we are talking about hisec corps with low skilled characters and small wallets. Even if they did field a viable composition to effectively engage, there is still the sticking point in that they have no clear objectives which can be secured through such actions. Espeically when the impact of the wardec can be ENTIERLY MITIGATED by using neutral or NPC alts for trade and haulage.

EVE is one of those games which seems to accept and even encourage mismatched engagements - and this is in part due to the attitudes of it's player base. Who seem to worship their killboards without any consideration of the respective combat effectiveness of the beligerents. In such a game knowing which fights to take, and evading those you shouldn't are necessary combat skills.

By engaging the mercs you are giving them exactly what they want. The simplest and wisest course of action is simply to evade their efforts and let them die of boredom.
Aeryn Maricadie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2017-06-13 13:31:59 UTC
I thought wardecs cost like 50mil
Toxic Yaken
G0P-ST0P
P I R A T
#63 - 2017-06-13 13:34:43 UTC
Aeryn Maricadie wrote:
I thought wardecs cost like 50mil


They can range from 50m to 500m based on the size of the corporation/alliance getting wardec'd.

Curator of the Wardec Project - Join our Discord to join the discussions about Wardecs

Omar Alharazaad
Praetorian Cannibals
Cannibal Empire
#64 - 2017-06-13 15:11:24 UTC
It gets better than that.
If you're actively hunting a corp for example, I dunno, because you've been paid to... the costs go up.
Say your target corp has 100 members.
Also, lets suppose that the wardeccing corp has 10 active members at any given time... generous, i know... but let's go there.
Hunting corp wants to find people. Watchlist is gone.
Hunting corp uses locator agents. Each of their ten people online uses two characters twice an hour to locate from two different agents each.
That's 250k per use. So, speaking of course completely hypothetical... or maybe from direct experience, each player is burning 2 million isk per hour trying to find someone who is not docked in a station.... because you don't know if they are online or not, so docked tells you jack. They're madly rolling the dice in hopes of finding someone who is in space.
Now that 2 million isk only gets you the lowdown on 8 people, for that hour (or within five minutes).
So, with ten and their altts, you can get the passive location of 80 of the 100 players in that corp for a mere cost of 20 million ISK. Unfortunately, most of these people are offline, so if you do not by some miracle score a hit with your locator you repeat the process, prioritizing the few that you missed in the first place.
This is for a 100 man corp.
Now... let it sink in the effort and ISK sink for trying to find a viable target in a corp of 300... or maybe 500, or a thousand?

It's not worth it anymore. Before the watchlist changes the ISK sink for locates are significant but manageable.
Now, screw it, don't bother, just hump the pipes and hubs or find someone with a structure.... maybe they'll scout out the system your corp has it's office in and see what's going on there. Maybe a browse on the killboards to see where you like to die.

If you die to a war dec in high sec now you are bad and you should feel bad for being so bad. Douse yourself in shamepoo and cry in the corner of the shower because you suck. I don't mean that metaphorically, it can be proven mathematically on a freaking Etch A Sketch.

It Is Your Fault.

The only fix that will correct this is for you to stop being bad.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

Omar Alharazaad
Praetorian Cannibals
Cannibal Empire
#65 - 2017-06-13 15:24:44 UTC
Addendum.
BUT MAH STRUCTURE!!!!

Devils and Cavemen have already very eloquently demonstrated what happens if you organize a coordinated defense of your structure.
The evil mercs and their super heretical neutral logi DIE.

There is a catch, though. You have to WORK to make this happen.
As a former merc who took part in many a structure bash I can tell you with absolute certainty that 19 out ot 20 of those structures died unmanned, alone in the dark... wailing for help from their owners.
Said owners decided to dock up for the war and play GTA or world of tanks or some other ****...
They lost their things because they couldn't be arsed to put for the effort to keep them.
And the people who tore em down are the villains?

Hardly.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

Mike Adoulin
Adolescent Radioactive Pirate Hamsters
CODE.
#66 - 2017-06-14 02:43:53 UTC
Addendum To Omar's Rant:


And what makes it even harder to use locater agents is that As Far As I Know, if someone is docked up in a Citadel or Engineering Complex, they might as well be in a wormhole system.

IE, the locater agent reports 'out of area of influence'.

Which makes level 3/4 locater agents USELESS.

Also also, structure bashes and gate camps are the PVP version of mining........they are Teh Ebil.

Thanks, CCP.

*gives Hilmar The Bird*

Everything in EVE is a trap.

And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)

You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.

Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.

Omar Alharazaad
Praetorian Cannibals
Cannibal Empire
#67 - 2017-06-14 03:40:16 UTC
Huh.
Did not know that bit about locators and citadels.
Sounds like they just haven't touched the code for locator agents since before they added wormholes, so if they get a response they don't understand it's just 'out of my area of influence'.
It's too bad, because when they work properly they make for a viable and well-used isk sink.
As it stands now, they are broken to the point of non-functionality due to the continued addition of new things that they don't understand.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

Erin Davis
Not going Away
Intrepid Crossing
#68 - 2017-06-14 05:04:45 UTC
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
Huh.
Did not know that bit about locators and citadels.
Sounds like they just haven't touched the code for locator agents since before they added wormholes, so if they get a response they don't understand it's just 'out of my area of influence'.
It's too bad, because when they work properly they make for a viable and well-used isk sink.
As it stands now, they are broken to the point of non-functionality due to the continued addition of new things that they don't understand.


Not true. It simply says they are in X system in space.
Omar Alharazaad
Praetorian Cannibals
Cannibal Empire
#69 - 2017-06-14 05:17:18 UTC
ah, my learny bits are all aquiver.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#70 - 2017-06-14 05:51:57 UTC
I did post a few times in GD that people should go and sit in a WH system to be extra annoying when war decked, perhaps people are taking that advice, I just hope they are in something cloaky with a probe launcher with probes... I suggested it as part of the avoidance approach which was to wind up the merc trying to hunt because they would get unknown areas of space back when they looked and would think nah, won't war dec again because the target has access to WH space and can hang out there.

Also it would perhaps open up more interesting game play for them.

As almost all war deckers do no real target selection as such it is quite effective... And I did suggest that before the watch lists were removed by the way.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Mike Adoulin
Adolescent Radioactive Pirate Hamsters
CODE.
#71 - 2017-06-14 06:43:26 UTC
Erin Davis wrote:

Not true. It simply says they are in X system in space.



Glad they fixed it.

Helps abit.

Everything in EVE is a trap.

And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)

You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.

Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.

Molly Metal
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2017-06-18 13:00:26 UTC
KnightGuard Fury wrote:
Zanar Skwigelf wrote:
KnightGuard Fury wrote:
why do you guys perma dec people for no reason?



KnightGuard Fury wrote:
theres literally no point except wasting our time.


Is it no reason, or are they wasting your time? Please don't contradict yourself.

Also, last I checked some people like shooting spaceships without having to travel far from Jita.


yes, but when the people deccing dont kill most the people they war dec, why even dec at all?



Even though we haven't killed you guys often... we have killed you... and will continue to do so... warfare isn't just about blowing up a ship...sometimes it's more fun to "starve" your opponent until they submit...
Starrakatt
Celtic Anarchy
Dead Terrorists
#73 - 2017-06-18 21:20:04 UTC
Mike Adoulin wrote:
Erin Davis wrote:

Not true. It simply says they are in X system in space.



Glad they fixed it.

Helps abit.

I seem to remember reading this is on the 'fix it' list of structure fixes. That is, when you are docked in a citadel, you should show as 'docked up'.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#74 - 2017-06-21 17:02:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
Huh.
Did not know that bit about locators and citadels.
Sounds like they just haven't touched the code for locator agents since before they added wormholes, so if they get a response they don't understand it's just 'out of my area of influence'.
It's too bad, because when they work properly they make for a viable and well-used isk sink.
As it stands now, they are broken to the point of non-functionality due to the continued addition of new things that they don't understand.




This might explain why the graphic for entrance into a citadel is rather "wormholish". Chances are it's the same mechanic, being in a wormhole or in a citadel, as far as the locator agent is concerned. Appears it may have been addressed.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Dungheap
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#75 - 2017-06-23 00:05:10 UTC
KnightGuard Fury wrote:
ok to clear some things up:

1. some of my people are pvp'ers and some indy/miners
2. i have not been in the market in a while but have een building things and saving up.
3. we live in a low competition market and everyone and thier mothers are mostly miners/indy/mission runners.
4. our region is MH, the most lack luster region around.

no one has a real reason to hate us whether its me or anyone or thing else. **** all if i know why someone would really dec us besides looking for easy kills or just to annoy us.


5. you announce in teon local , you've cleared bosena of pirates , and it's now safe for missions and mining .. it sounds like you're an RP corp , who's looking for some pew . either of those are a good reason to be war dec'd .. Big smile
Marcus Binchiette
Federal Vanguard
Evictus.
#76 - 2017-06-23 01:41:44 UTC
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
It gets better than that.
If you're actively hunting a corp for example, I dunno, because you've been paid to... the costs go up.
Say your target corp has 100 members.
Also, lets suppose that the wardeccing corp has 10 active members at any given time... generous, i know... but let's go there.
Hunting corp wants to find people. Watchlist is gone.
Hunting corp uses locator agents. Each of their ten people online uses two characters twice an hour to locate from two different agents each.

That's 250k per use. So, speaking of course completely hypothetical... or maybe from direct experience, each player is burning 2 million isk per hour trying to find someone who is not docked in a station.... because you don't know if they are online or not, so docked tells you jack. They're madly rolling the dice in hopes of finding someone who is in space.
Now that 2 million isk only gets you the lowdown on 8 people, for that hour (or within five minutes).

....


Methinks your hunting skills need improvement if you require total reliance on locator agents to do your work for you. Finding out what sort of corporation you're dealing with, which systems they inhabit, and the activity levels of their membership is quite simple. All it requires is some zkillboard and statistics research on the corporation and it's members. Which should narrow your search to a selection of regions and likely systems.

With the additional use of some cargo scanning at major tradehubs to determine cargo types, and following said cargo ships back to their home system. Then putting some cloaking eyes on grid and in system it should be very easy to learn their movements and habits. Where they mine, and what sort of operations they run, and what assets they have. Follow this up with putting a spy in their corporation for best resutls in the weeks prior... If you aren't putting this level of effort into your reconnisance then your wardecs wont achieve the desired results.

I think you need to think less like a "PvP'er" and more like a war-fighter - and the basic fundamental of war is that intelligence is king. You can't shoot what you can't see. Futhermore, the lack of information, during war, can kill you.

Khromius
G0P-ST0P
P I R A T
#77 - 2017-06-23 02:48:13 UTC
Marcus Binchiette wrote:
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
It gets better than that.
If you're actively hunting a corp for example, I dunno, because you've been paid to... the costs go up.
Say your target corp has 100 members.
Also, lets suppose that the wardeccing corp has 10 active members at any given time... generous, i know... but let's go there.
Hunting corp wants to find people. Watchlist is gone.
Hunting corp uses locator agents. Each of their ten people online uses two characters twice an hour to locate from two different agents each.

That's 250k per use. So, speaking of course completely hypothetical... or maybe from direct experience, each player is burning 2 million isk per hour trying to find someone who is not docked in a station.... because you don't know if they are online or not, so docked tells you jack. They're madly rolling the dice in hopes of finding someone who is in space.
Now that 2 million isk only gets you the lowdown on 8 people, for that hour (or within five minutes).

....


Methinks your hunting skills need improvement if you require total reliance on locator agents to do your work for you. Finding out what sort of corporation you're dealing with, which systems they inhabit, and the activity levels of their membership is quite simple. All it requires is some zkillboard and statistics research on the corporation and it's members. Which should narrow your search to a selection of regions and likely systems.

With the additional use of some cargo scanning at major tradehubs to determine cargo types, and following said cargo ships back to their home system. Then putting some cloaking eyes on grid and in system it should be very easy to learn their movements and habits. Where they mine, and what sort of operations they run, and what assets they have. Follow this up with putting a spy in their corporation for best resutls in the weeks prior... If you aren't putting this level of effort into your reconnisance then your wardecs wont achieve the desired results.

I think you need to think less like a "PvP'er" and more like a war-fighter - and the basic fundamental of war is that intelligence is king. You can't shoot what you can't see. Futhermore, the lack of information, during war, can kill you.



And you speak from experience?
Omar Alharazaad
Praetorian Cannibals
Cannibal Empire
#78 - 2017-06-23 03:25:08 UTC
This method isn't bad, if you're just going to war with a single established entity for an extended period of time.
I thoroughly endorse it if it's just your corp dealing with a rival for reasons.

However, in the case of merc alliances that have anywhere from a handful to several dozen wars active at the same time... this just doesn't work.

Also, there is the whole factor of an employer wanting a war put on their competition and you coming back to them with 'sure, it'll only be two to three weeks of legwork and then we can start'.
I'm sure they'll be overjoyed.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

Clockwork Robot
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#79 - 2017-06-23 10:13:29 UTC
Khromius wrote:
Marcus Binchiette wrote:
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
It gets better than that.
If you're actively hunting a corp for example, I dunno, because you've been paid to... the costs go up.
Say your target corp has 100 members.
Also, lets suppose that the wardeccing corp has 10 active members at any given time... generous, i know... but let's go there.
Hunting corp wants to find people. Watchlist is gone.
Hunting corp uses locator agents. Each of their ten people online uses two characters twice an hour to locate from two different agents each.

That's 250k per use. So, speaking of course completely hypothetical... or maybe from direct experience, each player is burning 2 million isk per hour trying to find someone who is not docked in a station.... because you don't know if they are online or not, so docked tells you jack. They're madly rolling the dice in hopes of finding someone who is in space.
Now that 2 million isk only gets you the lowdown on 8 people, for that hour (or within five minutes).

....


Methinks your hunting skills need improvement if you require total reliance on locator agents to do your work for you. Finding out what sort of corporation you're dealing with, which systems they inhabit, and the activity levels of their membership is quite simple. All it requires is some zkillboard and statistics research on the corporation and it's members. Which should narrow your search to a selection of regions and likely systems.

With the additional use of some cargo scanning at major tradehubs to determine cargo types, and following said cargo ships back to their home system. Then putting some cloaking eyes on grid and in system it should be very easy to learn their movements and habits. Where they mine, and what sort of operations they run, and what assets they have. Follow this up with putting a spy in their corporation for best resutls in the weeks prior... If you aren't putting this level of effort into your reconnisance then your wardecs wont achieve the desired results.

I think you need to think less like a "PvP'er" and more like a war-fighter - and the basic fundamental of war is that intelligence is king. You can't shoot what you can't see. Futhermore, the lack of information, during war, can kill you.



And you speak from experience?



Poor form, man. Argue the concept, not the poster. If you have experience and know that his plan isn't viable, just say that.
What you're doing here is about as interesting as Armoury Trolling.
Mike Adoulin
Adolescent Radioactive Pirate Hamsters
CODE.
#80 - 2017-06-23 12:11:08 UTC
Khromius wrote:
Marcus Binchiette wrote:
wisdom


And you speak from experience?



I can, and he's right.

But right now the best way is to simply infiltrate the target corp with a spai.

There are also workarounds to losing watchlist ( you can still find out if someone is online...) but they are...tedious.

But yes, all of this takes time, and if you are McDeccing half the trade hub, you probably are going to have problems.

Everything in EVE is a trap.

And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)

You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.

Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.