These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Upcoming Feature and Change Feedback Center

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[June] Fighter Damage Reduction

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Gumby Taron
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#1281 - 2017-06-10 18:10:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Gumby Taron
Crash 888 wrote:
how is pvp screwed by this?

Your dps is reduced, but so is the enemy dps. Everyone remains in the same relative position.

What difference does it make?



Yea maybe if everyone in this game only flew carriers (hint:they don't)

This really hurts small scale pvp groups and their ability to fight numeric odds using higher SP and isk investment into ships such as carriers and super carriers, and it strengthens large capital heavy alliances such as PL, NC. and GSF who have the numbers to not be affected by the damage cuts.

What this won't hurt is the the influx of isk into the game which is the real problem driving the changes. As someone who super rats, I can just invest the isk into afk VNI characters and make the same if not more isk within the current mechanics (I'm already considering doing this).



Basically, the changes don't do anything but negatively affect the best part of the game (PVP), while they are not effective at countering the intended problem.
Backz Banny
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#1282 - 2017-06-10 18:13:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Backz Banny
so, one thing nobody seems to have touched yet:

why is there more money? maybe because people became "more productive".
just like in the real ******* world, where the available monetary supply has to be increased just
because society became more efficient and productive, because there is more stuff being built, faster and more cost effective.

so if ccp wants to keep the liquid isk ingame constant (the reasoning behind that being questionable), but people simply got
more productive, maybe introduce some FUKIN SINKS.

quick example: like many bees out there i was looking forward to that cool hazard control skin for my nid (oh ****, you got me there, i DO rat in a carrier).

i can buy it for a metric shtton of real money. i can buy it for isk, but that just moves isk to someone else who spent real money.
either way, no isk leaves the system.

if i could have bought that skin for isk, with the current conversion rate of plex to isk, from some ******** npc feggit -> boom, ISK LEAVING THE SYSTEM.

but oh noooo, then ccp could not make the quick buck/cashgrab on cosmetics (really, creating the whole line of skins took them maybe 2 days of a single artist's work).


so, buying cosmetics and other **** that does not increase your actual net worth and power ingame for isk from npcs, that would go a long way in solving ccp's problem of people being too rich because they "work" too much and too good in this game.

and nobody would feel shat on because only his way of grinding isk to spend on actual gameplay would be singled out and hit.
Mary Timeshift Jane
Doomheim
#1283 - 2017-06-10 18:14:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Mary Timeshift Jane
blaedin jordan wrote:
Mary Timeshift Jane wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mary Timeshift Jane wrote:
Quote:


600% more ISK entering the game.


So what's the problem, everyone gets rich, buys all toys they ever dreamed of and we all can have great time of CAPITAL fun.
Instead you suggest to keep people poor, limit themselves to what frigs? Dessies? Cruisers.. rarely people take BC, and BS not happening on large scale roam unless Alliance OP.

Instead we could all have titans and bash each other left and right.

I suggest you get out of your small mind, small man, small world mentality. We could be living like gods, like we deserve to!


You do not get rich this way. Please learn some basic economics. Increasing the money supply has long been associated with rising prices so that the increase income and the increase in prices cancel each other out.

Don't believe me, this is precisely why we had stagflation around the early 1970s. There used to be a macro statistical relationship between the inflation rate and unemployment. Higher inflation => lower unemployment. Policy makers used this to try and counter act the business cycle. Problem is people figured out that higher wages and higher prices did not lead to an economic gain. This can be seen by looking at the household/individual's budget constraint:

P(y)*Y + P(x)*x = w*H

if P(y) and P(x) and w (the price for good y, x and the wage respectively) all double you get:

2*P(y)*Y + 2*P(x)*x = 2*w*H.

This can be re-written as:

2*[P(y)*Y + P(x)*x] = 2*w*H.

Basic algebra tells us that the 2's cancel, that is we are, in the end, left with

P(y)*Y + P(x)*x = w*H.

That is the original budget constraint. Now once people figure this out--i.e. they no longer suffer from money illusion that inflation-unemployment trade off I talked about disappeared and we ended up with higher inflation and higher unemployment which in turn lead to the political concept known as the misery index.

So pull your head out of ass.

Edit: To be clear why that post is so freaking stupid. Why don't we do this in real life? Because most people and most leaders of countries do not want to end up like fecking Venezuela or Zimbabwe with run away hyperinflation.


Good stuff, don't understand that formula at all. I'm not a friend with math, but Im a friend to 420 (read 'till the end, judge me later)... and I've seen realities other than ours where people don't jew on each other, don't monetize every service, move, every hello or every smile, because people in those higher up realities chose collaborative creation of the universe instead of greed infested junkyard.

Remember Eve tyrannis trailer? - Creation is so precious, greed so destructive. Your choice will make a difference.

So what keeps you choosing greed all the time? In our reality people define profit as taking from others and adding to their own.... to me profit is sharing with others for the benefit of all.

I build carriers for my friends free of charge, here and there I ask for cash for plex, they happily share that with me. Most carriers I build for them are free of charge. I already enjoy the activities of mining, ratting themselves as well as occasional pvping. I ratted in super to get isk only to make one time investment into BPOs. Now I put them on endless copy cycles on all my available slots and when my friends need some I throw it at them for free. Like haha, I don't even care. I cycle planets each day over xy toons, drop on a pile to corp for free anyone can build anything out of it. I do it cause it takes only 15minutes a day, and adds a great benefit.

Life is easier for everyone and everyone enjoys themselves way more. They're also pretty chill and it's fun to be around people like that... after all, what is life to you? What you gotta prove and to whom and why?

I chose to pursue creation of a world where everything is easy going, free of charge or very cheap, where everyone can have fun without having to struggle to have some fun.

Now feel free to judge me how terrible of a person I'm for doing that terrible forbidden <- \o/ ...stuff irl.
"


The most irrelevant post in the entire thread, most of us don't share your communistic world view- nobody I know is going to build carriers free of charge. I don't work for free in real life, I'm not doing it in video games, neither do my mates. Back to the point, these changes are terrible. They're a lazy approach to solve a problem that's going to be easily circumvented by just ditching carriers and hopping into marauders for some other ship that can clear anoms just as fast.

What they're doing to endgame ships is in truth, unjustifiable and I know dozens of people that are quitting the game for as a result of it. I've never seen anything like the hate I'm hearing in comms, it's shocking how many people are fed up with CCP ignoring our CSM reps and to make divisive, dramatic changes like the one proposed.


I agree with you on that a lot of my attitude comes from 420. It can me zone out to the point I just sit and stare in front of me into space and I will be having most awesome times with my own thoughts or the tiniest details like watching a bug crawl across the table or leaf dangling around on a branch of a tree in the wind lol. And I sit, I breath, I drink and eat and by that alone I'm thoroughly amused and life's beautiful. Don't need much else.

So pardon my ignorance of not finding a point in clinging to pixel ships, or virtual currency of isk like yourself. I come from a different
world. lmao
Mariza vonAmdonen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1284 - 2017-06-10 18:15:12 UTC
Nevase Prometeus wrote:
If you need to reduce ISK storming in system for equal why not reduce all bounty in every level mission. Make fraction items is the reasons for players to rat not bounty.



because its not only carriers that are ratting, and they dont want to reduce ISK from all over the spectrum of ratters. A wise decision.
Crash 888
TRINTEX
#1285 - 2017-06-10 18:17:14 UTC
Gumby Taron wrote:
Crash 888 wrote:
how is pvp screwed by this?

Your dps is reduced, but so is the enemy dps. Everyone remains in the same relative position.

What difference does it make?



Yea maybe if everyone in this game only flew carriers (hint:they don't)

This really hurts small scale pvp groups and their ability to fight numeric odds using higher SP and isk investment into ships such as carriers and super carriers, and it strengthens large capital heavy alliances such as PL, NC. and GSF who have the numbers to not be affected by the damage cuts.


Yet somehow small groups managed to play the game from 2003-2016 before these hilariously op fighters were introduced.
Devon Stone
Doomheim
#1286 - 2017-06-10 18:18:55 UTC
Backz Banny wrote:
so, one thing nobody seems to have touched yet:

why is there more money? maybe because people became "more productive".
just like in the real ******* world, where the available monetary supply has to be increased just
because society became more efficient and productive, because there is more stuff being built, faster and more cost effective.




You're right goon, they do need to nerf bounties by 50% and faction drops by 75% along with fighter nerfs.
Valdr Auduin
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1287 - 2017-06-10 18:20:06 UTC
cosmetics are such trash, some sort of decal art I could see, but simple pallette swaps don't make me want to spend RL money for the plex, they aren't even skin variations same for avatar accessories, I'll pay isk for the ones I want, but those're mostly for RP reasons, not some fashion minigame

I pay for my sub, that's the end of my luxury spending on this game
blaedin jordan
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1288 - 2017-06-10 18:21:12 UTC
"I agree with you on that a lot of my attitude comes from 420. It can me zone out to the point I just sit and stare in front of me into space and I will be having most awesome times with my own thoughts or the tiniest details like watching a bug crawl across the table or leaf dangling around on a branch of a tree in the wind lol. And I sit, I breath, I drink and eat and by that alone I'm thoroughly amused and life's beautiful. Don't need much else.

So pardon my ignorance of not finding a point in clinging to pixel ships, or virtual currency of isk like yourself. I come from a different
world. lmao"

You're forgiven. Eve needs space hippies for capitalists to kill; balance is a good thing. Seriously though, I hope CCP shows some love for the community and stalls these massive nerfs until our CSM's can become more involved--it's shocking how they were not involved in these proposed changes. Why do we even have the elections if the developers are just going to ignore us and do things like this to it's playerbase? I mean, 20% damage nerf...wtf CCP?
Valdr Auduin
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1289 - 2017-06-10 18:25:22 UTC
blaedin jordan wrote:
"I agree with you on that a lot of my attitude comes from 420. It can me zone out to the point I just sit and stare in front of me into space and I will be having most awesome times with my own thoughts or the tiniest details like watching a bug crawl across the table or leaf dangling around on a branch of a tree in the wind lol. And I sit, I breath, I drink and eat and by that alone I'm thoroughly amused and life's beautiful. Don't need much else.

So pardon my ignorance of not finding a point in clinging to pixel ships, or virtual currency of isk like yourself. I come from a different
world. lmao"

You're forgiven. Eve needs space hippies for capitalists to kill; balance is a good thing. Seriously though, I hope CCP shows some love for the community and stalls these massive nerfs until our CSM's can become more involved--it's shocking how they were not involved in these proposed changes. Why do we even have the elections if the developers are just going to ignore us and do things like this to it's playerbase? I mean, 20% damage nerf...wtf CCP?

agreed, massive fluctuations like that introduce reactionary instability in the markets, high-end players adapt and move on, and then scammers extend those disruptions via their disinfo marketing- a slow taper on fighter damage followed by a hard stop once CCP feels they hit the right reduction would be smarter than a massive utility cliff like this
Backz Banny
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#1290 - 2017-06-10 18:31:40 UTC
Devon Stone wrote:
Backz Banny wrote:
so, one thing nobody seems to have touched yet:

why is there more money? maybe because people became "more productive".
just like in the real ******* world, where the available monetary supply has to be increased just
because society became more efficient and productive, because there is more stuff being built, faster and more cost effective.




You're right goon, they do need to nerf bounties by 50% and faction drops by 75% along with fighter nerfs.



yeah, and put npc sell orders at fixed prices for every item. and buff mission income.

did you even read what i wrote, that it all was about more isk SINKS to adjust the amount of money in the game?
i **** you no kiddo, it's like talking to a potted plant about the inner workings of a nuclear power plant -.-
blaedin jordan
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1291 - 2017-06-10 18:37:12 UTC
Backz Banny wrote:
Devon Stone wrote:
Backz Banny wrote:
so, one thing nobody seems to have touched yet:

why is there more money? maybe because people became "more productive".
just like in the real ******* world, where the available monetary supply has to be increased just
because society became more efficient and productive, because there is more stuff being built, faster and more cost effective.




You're right goon, they do need to nerf bounties by 50% and faction drops by 75% along with fighter nerfs.



yeah, and put npc sell orders at fixed prices for every item. and buff mission income.

did you even read what i wrote, that it all was about more isk SINKS to adjust the amount of money in the game?
i **** you no kiddo, it's like talking to a potted plant about the inner workings of a nuclear power plant -.-



Some people are just incapable of comprehending A --> B ---> C therefore A --> C no matter how many times you explain it. I agree with you though, isk sinks are a far better way of moving forward versus nerfing carrier damage by a whopping 20%. I'm not even talking about the changes to rorqs or supercaps either, but hitting carriers that hard is just foolish b/c anyone with an ounce of common sense should know it's not going to move the game any closer to solving the isk saturation issue they say they are trying to correct. PEOPLE WILL JUST USE DIFFERENT SHIPS TO DO THE SAME THING -- I mean come on CCP, don't hit our beloved capitals that hard out the gates. I mean, start small and work your way up--that's basic, how do you miss that?!
Devon Stone
Doomheim
#1292 - 2017-06-10 18:39:04 UTC
Backz Banny wrote:
Devon Stone wrote:
Backz Banny wrote:
so, one thing nobody seems to have touched yet:

why is there more money? maybe because people became "more productive".
just like in the real ******* world, where the available monetary supply has to be increased just
because society became more efficient and productive, because there is more stuff being built, faster and more cost effective.



You're right goon, they do need to nerf bounties by 50% and faction drops by 75% along with fighter nerfs.



yeah, and put npc sell orders at fixed prices for every item. and buff mission income.

did you even read what i wrote, that it all was about more isk SINKS to adjust the amount of money in the game?
i **** you no kiddo, it's like talking to a potted plant about the inner workings of a nuclear power plant -.-


I'm agreeing with you that fighter nerfs are needed to curb the goon farming machine. It's ruining the game.

So NERF those Fighters CCP ++ - goons agree
Ezio Sotken
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#1293 - 2017-06-10 18:39:25 UTC
Backz Banny wrote:
Devon Stone wrote:
Backz Banny wrote:
so, one thing nobody seems to have touched yet:

why is there more money? maybe because people became "more productive".
just like in the real ******* world, where the available monetary supply has to be increased just
because society became more efficient and productive, because there is more stuff being built, faster and more cost effective.




You're right goon, they do need to nerf bounties by 50% and faction drops by 75% along with fighter nerfs.



yeah, and put npc sell orders at fixed prices for every item. and buff mission income.

did you even read what i wrote, that it all was about more isk SINKS to adjust the amount of money in the game?
i **** you no kiddo, it's like talking to a potted plant about the inner workings of a nuclear power plant -.-


You know, I generally find amusements in comment chains, this one was one of the best so far. Love your line about the potted plant.

Anyway, IMO the fighter nerf in paticular is not a PVE nerf rather a PVP one in reality. Gonna make me very sad.
blaedin jordan
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1294 - 2017-06-10 18:42:24 UTC
Devon Stone wrote:
Backz Banny wrote:
Devon Stone wrote:
Backz Banny wrote:
so, one thing nobody seems to have touched yet:

why is there more money? maybe because people became "more productive".
just like in the real ******* world, where the available monetary supply has to be increased just
because society became more efficient and productive, because there is more stuff being built, faster and more cost effective.



You're right goon, they do need to nerf bounties by 50% and faction drops by 75% along with fighter nerfs.



yeah, and put npc sell orders at fixed prices for every item. and buff mission income.

did you even read what i wrote, that it all was about more isk SINKS to adjust the amount of money in the game?
i **** you no kiddo, it's like talking to a potted plant about the inner workings of a nuclear power plant -.-


I'm agreeing with you that fighter nerfs are needed to curb the goon farming machine. It's ruining the game.

So NERF those Fighters CCP ++ - goons agree


It doesn't hit Goons the hardest, I promise you it's going to hit renting corps and start-up players trying to make their first couple of billions more than a massive, rich alliance with resources galore. It's the lower tier players that are going to be clobbered the most by this, no doubt.
Mestori Anar
International Brotherhood of Teamsters
Federated Alliance of Mafias
#1295 - 2017-06-10 18:43:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Mestori Anar
If the problem was bounties, wtf are nerfing the ship?!?!?!?!
Keep the ship as is, and then do a logarthmic drop for bounties. The higher tick you get, the lower your next tick will be for x amount of time. That way casuals who rat for an hour or so can still get their income while the guys who are truly the 1% of the 1% will see their ticks drop dramatically if they are constantly super ratting.

I am nowhere near the 1% of the 1% and these changes absolutely suck.
Cismet
Silent Knights.
LinkNet
#1296 - 2017-06-10 18:45:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Cismet
Teckos Pech wrote:
Alright, since 99.99% of the people posting in this thread cannot look at the f-u-king data. Here is the latest

MER: in terms of the money supply http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/70577/1/9a_sinksfaucets.png

Here is the graph of the time series: http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/MER/May_2017/9b_isk.float.3.png

Note how much ISK was added to the economy in May? Over 64 trillion ISK.

Now, lets just go look back in time at September 2016.

Same set of graphs:

http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/70577/1/9a_sinksfaucets.png
http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/70577/1/9b_isk.float.3.png

How much ISK was added: 11.4 trillion ISK.

Now since most of you seem to be innumerates we are talking about a 6 fold increase in the amount of ISK entering the game.

600% more ISK entering the game.

Maybe this is ham handed, but it is too much ISK entering the game. This kind of trajectory, if sustained would be very, very bad.

Perhaps CCP should simple bar carriers and supers from ratting. You cannot warp into the anomaly. That way there is no need to mess with DPS, and we address the ISK problem.

I doubt this will work for many of the entitled self-righteous twats in this thread though.


Your final line was describing yourself? There have been many other suggestions for how to fix it that don't involve destroying Carriers for both PVP and PVE.

Two excellent ones are capping tick sizes and diminishing returns on bounty payouts. The latter has the benefit of removing the problem of afk-droneboaters from the ISK stream. The problem isn't the concept that the money stream needs to go (Though the actual net money going into the system is +15T ISK, not 60, but by all means continue to spout the histrionics you were so adamantly against earlier), the problem is the method and demographic targeted. Why don't you try not being a monumental tool and be constructive, rather than just insult people who are justifiably angry by a MASSIVE nerf for which they aren't even necessarily the problem.

EDIT: I don't even pilot Carriers, and I can see that this is the most ham-fisted "solution" to a problem that has many other solutions if they just sat down and thought about it for 5 minutes.
Ezio Sotken
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#1297 - 2017-06-10 18:48:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Ezio Sotken
Mestori Anar wrote:
If the problem was bounties, wtf are nerfing the ship?!?!?!?!
Keep the ship as is, and then do a logarthmic drop for bounties. The higher tick you get, the lower your next tick will be for x amount of time. That way casuals who rat for an hour or so can still get their income while the guys who are truly the 1% of the 1% will see their ticks drop dramatically if they are constantly super ratting.

I am nowhere near the 1% of the 1% and these changes absolutely suck.


I take my thanny out to rat maybe a hour or two at most at a time, and I am NOT even near the 1% of the 1%. I do own a few caps, but its just a carrier, fax, and dread. Now, my carrier I use for both ratting and PVP when it is called for (or when I am not in the mood to dorp the fax or dread) now it can ONLY be used for isk making because TY CCP you just made it so no alliance no matter how big will want to use carriers anymore. They already were the Red Headed Stepchild of caps, now it will be worse.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1298 - 2017-06-10 18:51:25 UTC
Valdr Auduin wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mary Timeshift Jane wrote:
Quote:


600% more ISK entering the game.


So what's the problem, everyone gets rich, buys all toys they ever dreamed of and we all can have great time of CAPITAL fun.
Instead you suggest to keep people poor, limit themselves to what frigs? Dessies? Cruisers.. rarely people take BC, and BS not happening on large scale roam unless Alliance OP.

Instead we could all have titans and bash each other left and right.

I suggest you get out of your small mind, small man, small world mentality. We could be living like gods, like we deserve to!


You do not get rich this way. Please learn some basic economics. Increasing the money supply has long been associated with rising prices so that the increase income and the increase in prices cancel each other out.

Don't believe me, this is precisely why we had stagflation around the early 1970s. There used to be a macro statistical relationship between the inflation rate and unemployment. Higher inflation => lower unemployment. Policy makers used this to try and counter act the business cycle. Problem is people figured out that higher wages and higher prices did not lead to an economic gain. This can be seen by looking at the household/individual's budget constraint:

P(y)*Y + P(x)*x = w*H

if P(y) and P(x) and w (the price for good y, x and the wage respectively) all double you get:

2*P(y)*Y + 2*P(x)*x = 2*w*H.

This can be re-written as:

2*[P(y)*Y + P(x)*x] = 2*w*H.

Basic algebra tells us that the 2's cancel, that is we are, in the end, left with

P(y)*Y + P(x)*x = w*H.

That is the original budget constraint. Now once people figure this out--i.e. they no longer suffer from money illusion that inflation-unemployment trade off I talked about disappeared and we ended up with higher inflation and higher unemployment which in turn lead to the political concept known as the misery index.

So pull your head out of ass.

Edit: To be clear why that post is so freaking stupid. Why don't we do this in real life? Because most people and most leaders of countries do not want to end up like fecking Venezuela or Zimbabwe with run away hyperinflation.


I can live with that reasoning, but how do you answer to carriers not being viable for fighting things?


That is the trick. Keep them from injecting too much ISK into the game and make them PVP viable. One draconian solution is just keep them out of the anomalies. Somebody else suggested a hull penalty when ratting (note the penalty could be to payouts not the ships functionality). I find both of these rather uninspiring, but probably better than what we have now.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Devon Stone
Doomheim
#1299 - 2017-06-10 18:53:44 UTC
blaedin jordan wrote:

It doesn't hit Goons the hardest, I promise you it's going to hit renting corps and start-up players trying to make their first couple of billions more than a massive, rich alliance with resources galore. It's the lower tier players that are going to be clobbered the most by this, no doubt.



Goon cried for drone nerfs

time to bring fighters in line cause they are overpowered

Time for CCP to nerf fighters
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1300 - 2017-06-10 18:54:30 UTC
Isuro Tanaka wrote:
Sure seems like a lot of "1 % of 1%" people here...hmmm.


Because Quant probably got that wrong. Not literally wrong, in terms of ratters it might be 1% of the 1%, but not everyone who owns a carrier rats in a carrier or even rats to make ISK. I used to own a carrier, rarely ratted in it (and this was back with the old fighters under Dominion sov when I was in IT Alliance...so way back, and the amount of ISK I made was probably less than 200 million ISK). So a nerf like this would screw me over if I still had a carrier even though I am not part of the problem. And to give credit to whom it belongs, this objection was first raised by Surrendermonkey dozens of pages back.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online