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[June] Fighter Damage Reduction

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Ezio Sotken
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#1301 - 2017-06-10 18:54:57 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Valdr Auduin wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mary Timeshift Jane wrote:
Quote:


600% more ISK entering the game.


So what's the problem, everyone gets rich, buys all toys they ever dreamed of and we all can have great time of CAPITAL fun.
Instead you suggest to keep people poor, limit themselves to what frigs? Dessies? Cruisers.. rarely people take BC, and BS not happening on large scale roam unless Alliance OP.

Instead we could all have titans and bash each other left and right.

I suggest you get out of your small mind, small man, small world mentality. We could be living like gods, like we deserve to!


You do not get rich this way. Please learn some basic economics. Increasing the money supply has long been associated with rising prices so that the increase income and the increase in prices cancel each other out.

Don't believe me, this is precisely why we had stagflation around the early 1970s. There used to be a macro statistical relationship between the inflation rate and unemployment. Higher inflation => lower unemployment. Policy makers used this to try and counter act the business cycle. Problem is people figured out that higher wages and higher prices did not lead to an economic gain. This can be seen by looking at the household/individual's budget constraint:

P(y)*Y + P(x)*x = w*H

if P(y) and P(x) and w (the price for good y, x and the wage respectively) all double you get:

2*P(y)*Y + 2*P(x)*x = 2*w*H.

This can be re-written as:

2*[P(y)*Y + P(x)*x] = 2*w*H.

Basic algebra tells us that the 2's cancel, that is we are, in the end, left with

P(y)*Y + P(x)*x = w*H.

That is the original budget constraint. Now once people figure this out--i.e. they no longer suffer from money illusion that inflation-unemployment trade off I talked about disappeared and we ended up with higher inflation and higher unemployment which in turn lead to the political concept known as the misery index.

So pull your head out of ass.

Edit: To be clear why that post is so freaking stupid. Why don't we do this in real life? Because most people and most leaders of countries do not want to end up like fecking Venezuela or Zimbabwe with run away hyperinflation.


I can live with that reasoning, but how do you answer to carriers not being viable for fighting things?


That is the trick. Keep them from injecting too much ISK into the game and make them PVP viable. One draconian solution is just keep them out of the anomalies. Somebody else suggested a hull penalty when ratting (note the penalty could be to payouts not the ships functionality). I find both of these rather uninspiring, but probably better than what we have now.



What I would like to see is some actual capital sites. Disallow caps from warping to normal anomolies, and add cap only anoms. Make them to the style of sleeper sites, but toned down so they can be solo'd. Also adding in a cap anom that requires more than one, maybe a fax too owuld be fun actually.
Devon Stone
Doomheim
#1302 - 2017-06-10 18:57:37 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:


That is the trick. Keep them from injecting too much ISK into the game and make them PVP viable. One draconian solution is just keep them out of the anomalies. Somebody else suggested a hull penalty when ratting (note the penalty could be to payouts not the ships functionality). I find both of these rather uninspiring, but probably better than what we have now.



Apparently goon don't need to be concerned about PVP viability cause while camping in a station you'll see little difference
Acend Isagar
0ffline Corporation
#1303 - 2017-06-10 18:59:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Acend Isagar
I started playing this game 3 years ago. At first I had absolutely no ******* clue what I was doing, trained into a wolf bc i thought the ship looked dank, went to lowsec and ofc went boom bc some leet campers had to penetrate me. I was completely shocked and amazed at the same time, then I was hooked and read so much EVE related stuff that I thought my brain would stop working any time. Got into a stratios, joined a corp, found out about new upcoming changes and meta gaming. I then came in touch with a former CSM and my whole EVE journey seemed to be getting better and better and I was very happy with throwing cash down CCP's throat. Then 2 years ago the shitshow slowly started to begin, I always had my niche, from smartbombing to blopsing to wh raping and some changes made me upset, like when I was about to finally get in a dread and live in a C5 wormhole when the drifter patch hit. But you adapt, you try to give feedback and hope the best. I joined da best lowsec Corp SnuffldOut to enjoy some epic content and there was more then a shitton. Dank fights over towers, massive nullsec Tidi **** when Mittens started going insane with his viceroyal plans and the war with ShadowCartel. Now looking back, the moment everything began to fall apart was with the introduction of Skill Injectors and the ******** feature called Citadels. I am not here to tell you something new, but for the first time I feel like we all have been let down by a corporation that used to actually try to provide content. Now we have a cash grabbing bunch of devs that promote asset safety and 100 citadels in every system. With citadels you nearly killed all the aspects of the game I used to enjoy and I was willing to adapt and since SO MANY of your players feel the same I thought changes would come, but instead the insane cash grabbing tactics kept getting into play and now that so many players injected their carrier and rorqual pilots since there is NOTHING else to you just decide to nerf everything and my question is, what then? This so called outrage is not directed to any specific change, it's the fact that you as a company stopped having a vision for this game and are circling around the broken state of the game we have right now instead of implementing the drastic changes that are needed. You don't even have to come up with the solutions, since every half decent player can write you a list of what is wrong in EVE and ideas to fix it, take the ones you like the best and can manage to implement and make a poll for the people to vote and give feedback. I have finally decided to unsubscribe my accounts aswell because there is no reason to play a game with a team of devs so out of touch with their player base. CCP, all we ask is to get your **** together, get an employee to actively interact with the community and maybe after the 2 worst years this game has experienced start to listen to your unbelieveably loyal and invested player base. I love this game more then words can explain and most players feel the same but it just sickens me what your greed is doing with it. I hope this post can atleast change some minds, so we can all start on improving the game together, instead of milking it until the servers go down. I love every single one of you, the best community there is.
Fly safe o7
uninstall 01
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1304 - 2017-06-10 19:00:03 UTC
read my name, do it to the game
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1305 - 2017-06-10 19:01:15 UTC
Cismet wrote:

Your final line was describing yourself? There have been many other suggestions for how to fix it that don't involve destroying Carriers for both PVP and PVE.


No, it was aimed at the idiots suggesting things like: nerf all bounties. That is compounding a bad decision with and even worse one. Or the one's trying to claim that having a 6 fold increase in ISK entering the game is not going to cause problems. Those jerks are literally destroying the purchasing power of everyone else's ISK for their benefit. There is very serious stupid in this thread...stupid from people who don't understand even rudimentary economics.

Cismet wrote:
Two excellent ones are capping tick sizes and diminishing returns on bounty payouts. The latter has the benefit of removing the problem of afk-droneboaters from the ISK stream. The problem isn't the concept that the money stream needs to go (Though the actual net money going into the system is +15T ISK, not 60, but by all means continue to spout the histrionics you were so adamantly against earlier), the problem is the method and demographic targeted. Why don't you try not being a monumental tool and be constructive, rather than just insult people who are justifiably angry by a MASSIVE nerf for which they aren't even necessarily the problem.


Some issues with this:

First off if this applies to everyone it is taking a bad idea and compounding it and applying it to those who are not the problem. Second, the cap/diminishing return is not a one and done number. It will have to continuously monitored and changed regularly as players change in game behaviors. Look at my signature, the idea of getting it "just right" even with constant monitoring is going to be problematic. You'll know how much ISK has entered the system, but you won't necessarily know how much is going too, so your policy will always be looking backwards, not forwards. In other words, it assumes a degree of information that nobody possesses not even the Devs.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Mary Timeshift Jane
Doomheim
#1306 - 2017-06-10 19:03:04 UTC
uninstall 01 wrote:
read my name, do it to the game


Your permit on CODE. right to exist is long overdue, transfer the isk now or suffer the consequences.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1307 - 2017-06-10 19:03:31 UTC
Devon Stone wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


That is the trick. Keep them from injecting too much ISK into the game and make them PVP viable. One draconian solution is just keep them out of the anomalies. Somebody else suggested a hull penalty when ratting (note the penalty could be to payouts not the ships functionality). I find both of these rather uninspiring, but probably better than what we have now.



Apparently goon don't need to be concerned about PVP viability cause while camping in a station you'll see little difference


You don't read very well do you?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Aries Stark
The Organization of Fire and Steel
Elementium Alliance
#1308 - 2017-06-10 19:04:09 UTC
Can we see data charts showing specifically what ships are being used to pull in this isk?
yeah we see that bounty payouts skyrocketed (now that you made it easier for players to fly supers and carriers so more people are actually doing it) but i don't see any information on exactly how players are making these bounties.


Are titan ratters the real problem but you've gone and lumped them in the same category as carriers?
who knows, you're not showing us specific data.


I'm skeptical that these changes will sway the incoming amount of isk into the game by a noticeable amount.
The changes only seem to increase the time players will have to spend out there ratting each day since you're not exactly presenting any alternative isk sink.
In fact you're kind of discouraging the use of these large vessels which will in-turn result is less flown and less lost in combat.
Thus adding to the problem of us not having anything fun to take our isk away.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1309 - 2017-06-10 19:05:34 UTC
Mestori Anar wrote:
If the problem was bounties, wtf are nerfing the ship?!?!?!?!
Keep the ship as is, and then do a logarthmic drop for bounties. The higher tick you get, the lower your next tick will be for x amount of time. That way casuals who rat for an hour or so can still get their income while the guys who are truly the 1% of the 1% will see their ticks drop dramatically if they are constantly super ratting.

I am nowhere near the 1% of the 1% and these changes absolutely suck.


Because bounties were not a problem before the carrier changes. Yes bounties injected alot of ISK, but not to the degree we are seeing now. Prior to the change it was around 40 trillion ISK being injected, not it is nearly 70 trillion ISK.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Fringilla Shepard
#1310 - 2017-06-10 19:06:15 UTC
Oh crap, why me? I not living in nulls... bye Archon :(
I want my drones back! Take of your crappy fighters!
-2 subscribers
Mikkhi Kisht
Vanity Thy Name Is
#1311 - 2017-06-10 19:06:32 UTC
CCP came for overview icons. Those that cried foul were told, HTFU.

CCP forced a new shiny camera on the game client. It's still not as functional as the 'Classic' one was. Those that complained? HTFU or GTFO.

Same routine for the probe scanning.

Ditto for Nerfs that slammed HighSec 'Scrubs' the hardest (simply due to where game populations tend to pile up). It's suck it up or shove off. Null PvP is the only legit play style in Eve.

Skill Injectors and granulated Plex leading the charge to Pay2Win/Excel? Push back against the idea of a quick buck earned rather than long term planning? That it would quickly lead to precarious imbalances ingame? Those are tinfoil rantings, get over it & love the new fast-track to capital ship shinys.

Carriers are about to get their taste of the Nerf Bat.

Oh no! Not right! Not fair! Not wanted!

Myself and others were laughed at when it was our sacred cows getting turned into low grade hamburger. Now it's your ruminate at the chopping block. I'm sorry. I think this is a rotten (and ineffective!) way to solve some problem. That it's heavy handed, mean spirited, and just plain wrong. The problem has solutions, I wonder why the worst one is the one chosen to make live.

But I'm going to say to those hollering, wailing, and gnashing a lot of teeth, what I was told when I griped.

Evolve or die, HTFU, suck it up or shove off.

**

It's a bit different when it's your shiny about to get DXed, huh. Sorry about that. Not much I can do, I'm just a HighSec Scrub.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1312 - 2017-06-10 19:08:03 UTC
Backz Banny wrote:
Devon Stone wrote:
Backz Banny wrote:
so, one thing nobody seems to have touched yet:

why is there more money? maybe because people became "more productive".
just like in the real ******* world, where the available monetary supply has to be increased just
because society became more efficient and productive, because there is more stuff being built, faster and more cost effective.




You're right goon, they do need to nerf bounties by 50% and faction drops by 75% along with fighter nerfs.



yeah, and put npc sell orders at fixed prices for every item. and buff mission income.

did you even read what i wrote, that it all was about more isk SINKS to adjust the amount of money in the game?
i **** you no kiddo, it's like talking to a potted plant about the inner workings of a nuclear power plant -.-


That is another alternative, pump up the sinks. Problem with this though is that it does not necessarily penalizes those who ARE injecting ISK into the system. That new guy looking to buy the battleship skill book is unlikely to be injecting hundreds of billions of ISK into the economy...so why should the cost of the skillbook double so that some guy who has billions of ISK already can go on getting even more?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Mary Timeshift Jane
Doomheim
#1313 - 2017-06-10 19:09:35 UTC
Aries Stark wrote:
Can we see data charts showing specifically what ships are being used to pull in this isk?
yeah we see that bounty payouts skyrocketed (now that you made it easier for players to fly supers and carriers so more people are actually doing it) but i don't see any information on exactly how players are making these bounties.


Are titan ratters the real problem but you've gone and lumped them in the same category as carriers?
who knows, you're not showing us specific data.


I'm skeptical that these changes will sway the incoming amount of isk into the game by a noticeable amount.
The changes only seem to increase the time players will have to spend out there ratting each day since you're not exactly presenting any alternative isk sink.
In fact you're kind of discouraging the use of these large vessels which will in-turn result is less flown and less lost in combat.
Thus adding to the problem of us not having anything fun to take our isk away.




Supers are more common now that engineering complexes are available. All the boys can have their toys they ever dreamed of. Ratting Titans aren't a thing yet, because they still cost 70bil+.. and you need couple months of supercarrier ratting to reach that. And that takes a lot of effort, which I'm gonna put it in just to get better ticks and enjoy couple of months avoiding nerfhammer until more people reach that level and it starts to bother CCP again.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1314 - 2017-06-10 19:11:49 UTC
Devon Stone wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Devon Stone wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


Actually, I agree. Nerfing the DPS is too heavy handed. Something has to be done, but this is probably not it. Every player who has a carrier and uses it just for PVP is screwed over by this. Same with players with supers. They too get screwed if they are just using it for PvP.


Goon and surrogates crying again, where did the drone touch you?

PVP as in you sitting in your POS bubble cowering goon? Or when your meat shields failed or fled you cowering all over the map station camping?

The only thing goon and alts are concerned about is ISK and the RMT they make from it.

So go ahead goon, tell us where the drone touched you cause you were all for drone nerfs.


Your post is very muddled...on the one hand you are implying that because I am in GSF I am interested in only making ISK. On the other you are implying I hate drones and ratting even though I agree this nerf is probably not the right way to go regarding the flood of ISK flowing into the game and potential bad effects that could have.

Maybe you should sit down with an adult and have them help you figure things out.


Oh no goon - definition 'stupid person', you cried for drone nerfs cause someone blew up your internet space ship.

Now the follow up to the overpowered fighter situation. Just as drones were nerfed, now fighters will come in line with the drone nerfs you cried your eyes out about.

Sorry carebear isk farmer, you'll just have to farm harder.


I have not cried for drone nerfs. Maybe some Goons have, but then your bigotry is showing.

As for the fighter nerf, I agree that there is a problem with regards to the money supply so your ISK farming comment is simple stupid and wrong. I do not agree that the nerf to the PVP side of carriers/supers is warranted.

You are just flat out wrong and/or stupid and a bigot too.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Laenatus
ElitistOps
Deepwater Hooligans
#1315 - 2017-06-10 19:15:45 UTC
CCPS response to customer feedback: "Shut Up And Let It Happen"
Papa Sotken
Nothing Comes To Mind
Snuffed Out
#1316 - 2017-06-10 19:18:47 UTC
No

Zebra Corp
Darkligh 81
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1317 - 2017-06-10 19:22:16 UTC
Seems to me like CCP is clutching at straws on this one.

As for this nerf though. It's not really well thought out.

I supported the previous carrier nerf as it eliminated AFK Carrier ratting, which I do agree was the right move.

I carrier rat to support 2 accounts with my extremely limited play time (Agriculture- so it's 24/7/365, most days I am working 15 hours). The last month or so I have barely managed to sub the accounts due to RL so I guess my eve time is up with a 20% knock to income.

Anyway. CCP- have some logic here. You need subs to make the company money, either via PLEX or RL money.

PLEX is $19.99
A sub is $14.95

So someone like me ends up paying you an extra $5 per account.

However if I cannot afford a plex after the 20% nerf that means you will get $0 per account, so you're counting pennies and loosing pounds and I am sure that is the same for a good few other players.

Aside from that If I am going to be forced to cut back on something IRL and pay a sub, it won't be for this game. It would be for someting I could play with the missus.

Anyway those are my thoughts. Luckily my carriers insurance runs out just before my next sub. So i guess there's going to be some kills and a carrier loss just nowTwisted
Green Backs
HIgh Sec Care Bears
Brothers of Tangra
#1318 - 2017-06-10 19:22:21 UTC
i truly believe you guys are trying to completely screw up this game so no one wants to play except alpha accounts ....WHY MAKE SO MANY STUPID CHANGES TO THE GAME LIKE THIS ALL THE TIME ///////////// IF IT ISNT BROKEN DONT FIX IT ..
Chevy Caputtos
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#1319 - 2017-06-10 19:25:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Chevy Caputtos
This PR blunder has probably cost CCP more in lost subscribers than the supposed supercarrier ratting RMTers. My subscription will not continue much longer if CCP continues to mistake ignoring players for knowing better.

Seriously, what other company would alienate their highest paying and most invested players? Much less reply to a paying customer's inquiries by calling them an "edgelord" and posting cat pictures.
Ezio Sotken
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#1320 - 2017-06-10 19:31:53 UTC
1330+ comments by now, vast majority in full disagreement with this nerf, many even sharing potential fixes that are actually good. Dunno what else to say really. Put in my own 2 cents many times now on this thread.