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[June] Fighter Damage Reduction

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Scath Bererund
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1261 - 2017-06-10 17:24:41 UTC
Look at all the 1% of the 1% players...

Lets see if ccp will listen for a change
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#1262 - 2017-06-10 17:25:38 UTC
Probably been said, but Fighters are ridiculously vulnerable to ECM.
I just shutdown a Wyverns damage output with a Kitsune.

hastag-justsaying-perhaps-there's-more-to-consider?

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1263 - 2017-06-10 17:32:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Mary Timeshift Jane wrote:
Quote:


600% more ISK entering the game.


So what's the problem, everyone gets rich, buys all toys they ever dreamed of and we all can have great time of CAPITAL fun.
Instead you suggest to keep people poor, limit themselves to what frigs? Dessies? Cruisers.. rarely people take BC, and BS not happening on large scale roam unless Alliance OP.

Instead we could all have titans and bash each other left and right.

I suggest you get out of your small mind, small man, small world mentality. We could be living like gods, like we deserve to!


You do not get rich this way. Please learn some basic economics. Increasing the money supply has long been associated with rising prices so that the increase income and the increase in prices cancel each other out.

Don't believe me, this is precisely why we had stagflation around the early 1970s. There used to be a macro statistical relationship between the inflation rate and unemployment. Higher inflation => lower unemployment. Policy makers used this to try and counter act the business cycle. Problem is people figured out that higher wages and higher prices did not lead to an economic gain. This can be seen by looking at the household/individual's budget constraint:

P(y)*Y + P(x)*x = w*H

if P(y) and P(x) and w (the price for good y, x and the wage respectively) all double you get:

2*P(y)*Y + 2*P(x)*x = 2*w*H.

This can be re-written as:

2*[P(y)*Y + P(x)*x] = 2*w*H.

Basic algebra tells us that the 2's cancel, that is we are, in the end, left with

P(y)*Y + P(x)*x = w*H.

That is the original budget constraint. Now once people figure this out--i.e. they no longer suffer from money illusion that inflation-unemployment trade off I talked about disappeared and we ended up with higher inflation and higher unemployment which in turn lead to the political concept known as the misery index.

So pull your head out of ass.

Edit: To be clear why that post is so freaking stupid. Why don't we do this in real life? Because most people and most leaders of countries do not want to end up like fecking Venezuela or Zimbabwe with run away hyperinflation.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Valdr Auduin
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1264 - 2017-06-10 17:36:20 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mary Timeshift Jane wrote:
Quote:


600% more ISK entering the game.


So what's the problem, everyone gets rich, buys all toys they ever dreamed of and we all can have great time of CAPITAL fun.
Instead you suggest to keep people poor, limit themselves to what frigs? Dessies? Cruisers.. rarely people take BC, and BS not happening on large scale roam unless Alliance OP.

Instead we could all have titans and bash each other left and right.

I suggest you get out of your small mind, small man, small world mentality. We could be living like gods, like we deserve to!


You do not get rich this way. Please learn some basic economics. Increasing the money supply has long been associated with rising prices so that the increase income and the increase in prices cancel each other out.

Don't believe me, this is precisely why we had stagflation around the early 1970s. There used to be a macro statistical relationship between the inflation rate and unemployment. Higher inflation => lower unemployment. Policy makers used this to try and counter act the business cycle. Problem is people figured out that higher wages and higher prices did not lead to an economic gain. This can be seen by looking at the household/individual's budget constraint:

P(y)*Y + P(x)*x = w*H

if P(y) and P(x) and w (the price for good y, x and the wage respectively) all double you get:

2*P(y)*Y + 2*P(x)*x = 2*w*H.

This can be re-written as:

2*[P(y)*Y + P(x)*x] = 2*w*H.

Basic algebra tells us that the 2's cancel, that is we are, in the end, left with

P(y)*Y + P(x)*x = w*H.

That is the original budget constraint. Now once people figure this out--i.e. they no longer suffer from money illusion that inflation-unemployment trade off I talked about disappeared and we ended up with higher inflation and higher unemployment which in turn lead to the political concept known as the misery index.

So pull your head out of ass.

Edit: To be clear why that post is so freaking stupid. Why don't we do this in real life? Because most people and most leaders of countries do not want to end up like fecking Venezuela or Zimbabwe with run away hyperinflation.


I can live with that reasoning, but how do you answer to carriers not being viable for fighting things?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1265 - 2017-06-10 17:38:53 UTC
Mary Timeshift Jane wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Mary Timeshift Jane wrote:
Quote:


600% more ISK entering the game.


So what's the problem, everyone gets rich, buys all toys they ever dreamed of and we all can have great time of CAPITAL fun.
Instead you suggest to keep people poor, limit themselves to what frigs? Dessies? Cruisers.. rarely people take BC, and BS not happening on large scale roam unless Alliance OP.

Instead we could all have titans and bash each other left and right.

I suggest you get out of your small mind, small man, small world mentality. We could be living like gods, like we deserve to!


Want to point this out as an example of the extreme short sightedness. The problem isn't some virtual spaceship attributes, its that people don't understand the basics of how money works.

If everyone has money, then money is worthless. Carrier and Super Carrier ratting (along with the afkability of null sec anoms) is turning ISK in EVE Online into Zimbabwe Money.. We ALL end up on a super stupid isk treadmill where we all have to grind more to get what we need in game because of this.

CCP's action will (at least partially) reverse this. Yes your super or carrier will be less good at burning down havens and sanctums, but it doesn't matter because eventually the isk in your wallet will have some actual value. CCP just needs to do something about afkability in null sec anoms (then tackle wealth generation in high sec with is too safe) and we'll all be sitting pretty economically.


Isk is just a mediator, and totally irrelevant in its core. What's relevant are materials needed to build things, and gathering those materials require time and effort. Minerals don't mine themselves, you know. If people don't mine y ou will have no ships to buy with all your isk whatever value it is. Promoting value of mediators is also misleading people and tricking them into believing isk is in any way relevant.


Yes, ISK is a facilitator of transactions, but if you print too much of it it destroys the purchasing power of said currency. When the government does it, it is called an inflation tax or seigniorage. When the government does it it destroys the pruchasing power of the money already in existence. When players do it with ISK it does the same thing but to other players. In short you are getting "rich" by making other players poorer. That is not game balance. You want the money supply to grow at about the same rate as the real economy--i.e. little to no inflation.

You really do not understand even the rudiments of monetary theory at all. For example, ISK is not a fiat currency, IMO, it is actually a synthetic commodity currency.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Isuro Tanaka
Perkone
Caldari State
#1266 - 2017-06-10 17:43:03 UTC
Sure seems like a lot of "1 % of 1%" people here...hmmm.
WhiteOrm
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1267 - 2017-06-10 17:44:14 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:

You do not get rich this way. Please learn some basic economics. Increasing the money supply has long been associated with rising prices so that the increase income and the increase in prices cancel each other out.


CCP Larrikin wrote:

This trend is unsustainable. Having such a large ISK faucet is bad for the economy, and this ISK faucet is concentrated to a relatively small number of players.


Nope. You DO get rich this way. Because when small number of players have many ISK it directly makes them rich. It is other players that become relatively poorer from ISK inflation etc. To put it simply you had a chance to become rich by becoming a carrier/super pilot (that is a long shot), but you have that chance no more.
Valdr Auduin
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1268 - 2017-06-10 17:44:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Valdr Auduin
Sudden thought, what if carriers get a larger grid? And I mean the space equivalent of "over-the-horizon'
Devon Stone
Doomheim
#1269 - 2017-06-10 17:53:57 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Devon Stone wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


Actually, I agree. Nerfing the DPS is too heavy handed. Something has to be done, but this is probably not it. Every player who has a carrier and uses it just for PVP is screwed over by this. Same with players with supers. They too get screwed if they are just using it for PvP.


Goon and surrogates crying again, where did the drone touch you?

PVP as in you sitting in your POS bubble cowering goon? Or when your meat shields failed or fled you cowering all over the map station camping?

The only thing goon and alts are concerned about is ISK and the RMT they make from it.

So go ahead goon, tell us where the drone touched you cause you were all for drone nerfs.


Your post is very muddled...on the one hand you are implying that because I am in GSF I am interested in only making ISK. On the other you are implying I hate drones and ratting even though I agree this nerf is probably not the right way to go regarding the flood of ISK flowing into the game and potential bad effects that could have.

Maybe you should sit down with an adult and have them help you figure things out.


Oh no goon - definition 'stupid person', you cried for drone nerfs cause someone blew up your internet space ship.

Now the follow up to the overpowered fighter situation. Just as drones were nerfed, now fighters will come in line with the drone nerfs you cried your eyes out about.

Sorry carebear isk farmer, you'll just have to farm harder.
Mary Timeshift Jane
Doomheim
#1270 - 2017-06-10 17:55:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Mary Timeshift Jane
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mary Timeshift Jane wrote:
Quote:


600% more ISK entering the game.


So what's the problem, everyone gets rich, buys all toys they ever dreamed of and we all can have great time of CAPITAL fun.
Instead you suggest to keep people poor, limit themselves to what frigs? Dessies? Cruisers.. rarely people take BC, and BS not happening on large scale roam unless Alliance OP.

Instead we could all have titans and bash each other left and right.

I suggest you get out of your small mind, small man, small world mentality. We could be living like gods, like we deserve to!


You do not get rich this way. Please learn some basic economics. Increasing the money supply has long been associated with rising prices so that the increase income and the increase in prices cancel each other out.

Don't believe me, this is precisely why we had stagflation around the early 1970s. There used to be a macro statistical relationship between the inflation rate and unemployment. Higher inflation => lower unemployment. Policy makers used this to try and counter act the business cycle. Problem is people figured out that higher wages and higher prices did not lead to an economic gain. This can be seen by looking at the household/individual's budget constraint:

P(y)*Y + P(x)*x = w*H

if P(y) and P(x) and w (the price for good y, x and the wage respectively) all double you get:

2*P(y)*Y + 2*P(x)*x = 2*w*H.

This can be re-written as:

2*[P(y)*Y + P(x)*x] = 2*w*H.

Basic algebra tells us that the 2's cancel, that is we are, in the end, left with

P(y)*Y + P(x)*x = w*H.

That is the original budget constraint. Now once people figure this out--i.e. they no longer suffer from money illusion that inflation-unemployment trade off I talked about disappeared and we ended up with higher inflation and higher unemployment which in turn lead to the political concept known as the misery index.

So pull your head out of ass.

Edit: To be clear why that post is so freaking stupid. Why don't we do this in real life? Because most people and most leaders of countries do not want to end up like fecking Venezuela or Zimbabwe with run away hyperinflation.


Good stuff, don't understand that formula at all. I'm not a friend with math, but Im a friend to 420 (read 'till the end, judge me later)... and I've seen realities other than ours where people don't jew on each other, don't monetize every service, move, every hello or every smile, because people in those higher up realities chose collaborative creation of the universe instead of greed infested junkyard.

Remember Eve tyrannis trailer? - Creation is so precious, greed so destructive. Your choice will make a difference.

So what keeps you choosing greed all the time? In our reality people define profit as taking from others and adding to their own.... to me profit is sharing with others for the benefit of all.

I build carriers for my friends free of charge, here and there I ask for cash for plex, they happily share that with me. Most carriers I build for them are free of charge. I already enjoy the activities of mining, ratting themselves as well as occasional pvping. I ratted in super to get isk only to make one time investment into BPOs. Now I put them on endless copy cycles on all my available slots and when my friends need some I throw it at them for free. Like haha, I don't even care. I cycle planets each day over xy toons, drop on a pile to corp for free anyone can build anything out of it. I do it cause it takes only 15minutes a day, and adds a great benefit.

Life is easier for everyone and everyone enjoys themselves way more. They're also pretty chill and it's fun to be around people like that... after all, what is life to you? What you gotta prove and to whom and why?

I chose to pursue creation of a world where everything is easy going, free of charge or very cheap, where everyone can have fun without having to struggle to have some fun.

Now feel free to judge me how terrible of a person I'm for doing that terrible forbidden <- \o/ ...stuff irl.
Valdr Auduin
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1271 - 2017-06-10 17:59:45 UTC
Oh, Jane, darling, you do realize what you're doing right? you're giving the greedy bastards free isk by dropping those BPCs everywhere. You're destabilizing the market with your goodwill; killing us with your kindness, as it were.
Sidrat Flush
KarmaFleet
#1272 - 2017-06-10 17:59:46 UTC
Mary Timeshift Jane wrote:


I build carriers for my friends free of charge, here and there I ask for cash for plex, they happily share that with me. Most carriers I build for them are free of charge. I already enjoy the activities of mining, ratting themselves as well as occasional pvping. I ratted in super to get isk only to make one time investment into BPOs. Now I put them on endless copy cycles on all my available slots and when my friends need some I throw it at them for free. Like haha, I don't even care. I cycle planets each day over xy toons, drop on a pile to corp for free anyone can build anything out of it. I do it cause it takes only 15minutes a day, and adds a great benefit.

Now feel free to judge me how terrible of a person I'm for doing that terrible forbidden <- \o/ ...stuff irl.


It's a nice thing to do.

You do realize they're selling them no the market right?

Its time to stand up against the bad empire based CEO telling falsehoods about what new characters can accomplish and pushing them towards an in game experience of drudgery and loneliness keeping them in the shadow of ignorance for at nest their own profit at worse apathy towards all the experiences that Eve has to offer.
Mary Timeshift Jane
Doomheim
#1273 - 2017-06-10 18:01:24 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:


You really do not understand even the rudiments of monetary theory at all. For example, ISK is not a fiat currency, IMO, it is actually a synthetic commodity currency.


All I understand about money is that it's utter crap, necessary evil for underdeveloped worlds like ours. And we need strive to find ways to get rid of it NOT cling to it or justify it by blahblah theories of how it's supposed to work.
Crash 888
TRINTEX
#1274 - 2017-06-10 18:04:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Crash 888
how is pvp screwed by this?

Your dps is reduced, but so is the enemy dps. Everyone remains in the same relative position.

What difference does it make? (unless there is someone who uses solely carriers and nothing else, just plain stupid)
Mary Timeshift Jane
Doomheim
#1275 - 2017-06-10 18:05:26 UTC
Valdr Auduin wrote:
Oh, Jane, darling, you do realize what you're doing right? you're giving the greedy bastards free isk by dropping those BPCs everywhere. You're destabilizing the market with your goodwill; killing us with your kindness, as it were.


No my friends build their caps and supers and titans from these bpcs. They are far too rich to bother selling bpcs lol. That's poor man's job to use it as means to get richer and transfer into more profitable production.
Like I said, because in my world people share with each other like we were all brothers, there's no poorminded greed jew mentality. And even if there was, then we help her/him raise to the same levels of our own riches so that s/he too can too enjoy life of abundance and have all they dream of.
Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort
#1276 - 2017-06-10 18:06:15 UTC
Isuro Tanaka wrote:
Sure seems like a lot of "1 % of 1%" people here...hmmm.


You realize you're on the EVE forums correct? So ya, this is a fraction of a fraction of the actual playerbase. The majority of which are HS players who don't give two ***** what null players cry about. And this is just crying about CCP balancing something people were foolish enough to throw RL money into to inject for under the delusion that it was actually going to stay broken.

If injectors were never introduced this would have never turned into such a massive problem. Just like rorqs would have enjoyed a few more months in the sun if we didn't suddenly have thousands of new perfect pilots popping up literally over night. CCP made the mistake of implementing them at all in the hopes it would help new players, which is definitively has, however it opened this can of worms which has made the gains arguably not worth it. Hell even limiting their use to just alpha-level skills would have been a better implementation than what we have.

Because people have spent real money there are those that feel entitled to their gold rounds more than ever before. Forgetting cost has never, should never, will never, be a factor in balance. Especially to the detriment of game health and stability. Anyone with the mindset that they deserve an imbalanced ship due to time or money spent to obtain it are better off just unsubbing.
Skill Deficiency
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1277 - 2017-06-10 18:07:05 UTC
I like this list of changes and support the direction CCP is taking the game. I like that these necessary changes were made despite there being some pushback from a few of the games players. Moving forward I would like carriers further reviewed as well as the subcaps and the variance in damage between one and the next. Drones as a weapons class probably need to be reviewed further as it hasn't felt right since the introduction of all the drone modules which made them a weapons group as opposed to supplementary dps - they move to primary form of dps for many subcaps and I don't think we should balance eve around some of the obscene DPS numbers we see some subcaps reaching. Overall very postiive changes and look forward to whats next. It is refreshing to see carriers get addressed as we better define the future of EVE PVP.
Valdr Auduin
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1278 - 2017-06-10 18:08:33 UTC
Injectors are too expensive, they don't help new players, they help plex-players.
blaedin jordan
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1279 - 2017-06-10 18:08:37 UTC  |  Edited by: blaedin jordan
Mary Timeshift Jane wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mary Timeshift Jane wrote:
Quote:


600% more ISK entering the game.


So what's the problem, everyone gets rich, buys all toys they ever dreamed of and we all can have great time of CAPITAL fun.
Instead you suggest to keep people poor, limit themselves to what frigs? Dessies? Cruisers.. rarely people take BC, and BS not happening on large scale roam unless Alliance OP.

Instead we could all have titans and bash each other left and right.

I suggest you get out of your small mind, small man, small world mentality. We could be living like gods, like we deserve to!


You do not get rich this way. Please learn some basic economics. Increasing the money supply has long been associated with rising prices so that the increase income and the increase in prices cancel each other out.

Don't believe me, this is precisely why we had stagflation around the early 1970s. There used to be a macro statistical relationship between the inflation rate and unemployment. Higher inflation => lower unemployment. Policy makers used this to try and counter act the business cycle. Problem is people figured out that higher wages and higher prices did not lead to an economic gain. This can be seen by looking at the household/individual's budget constraint:

P(y)*Y + P(x)*x = w*H

if P(y) and P(x) and w (the price for good y, x and the wage respectively) all double you get:

2*P(y)*Y + 2*P(x)*x = 2*w*H.

This can be re-written as:

2*[P(y)*Y + P(x)*x] = 2*w*H.

Basic algebra tells us that the 2's cancel, that is we are, in the end, left with

P(y)*Y + P(x)*x = w*H.

That is the original budget constraint. Now once people figure this out--i.e. they no longer suffer from money illusion that inflation-unemployment trade off I talked about disappeared and we ended up with higher inflation and higher unemployment which in turn lead to the political concept known as the misery index.

So pull your head out of ass.

Edit: To be clear why that post is so freaking stupid. Why don't we do this in real life? Because most people and most leaders of countries do not want to end up like fecking Venezuela or Zimbabwe with run away hyperinflation.


Good stuff, don't understand that formula at all. I'm not a friend with math, but Im a friend to 420 (read 'till the end, judge me later)... and I've seen realities other than ours where people don't jew on each other, don't monetize every service, move, every hello or every smile, because people in those higher up realities chose collaborative creation of the universe instead of greed infested junkyard.

Remember Eve tyrannis trailer? - Creation is so precious, greed so destructive. Your choice will make a difference.

So what keeps you choosing greed all the time? In our reality people define profit as taking from others and adding to their own.... to me profit is sharing with others for the benefit of all.

I build carriers for my friends free of charge, here and there I ask for cash for plex, they happily share that with me. Most carriers I build for them are free of charge. I already enjoy the activities of mining, ratting themselves as well as occasional pvping. I ratted in super to get isk only to make one time investment into BPOs. Now I put them on endless copy cycles on all my available slots and when my friends need some I throw it at them for free. Like haha, I don't even care. I cycle planets each day over xy toons, drop on a pile to corp for free anyone can build anything out of it. I do it cause it takes only 15minutes a day, and adds a great benefit.

Life is easier for everyone and everyone enjoys themselves way more. They're also pretty chill and it's fun to be around people like that... after all, what is life to you? What you gotta prove and to whom and why?

I chose to pursue creation of a world where everything is easy going, free of charge or very cheap, where everyone can have fun without having to struggle to have some fun.

Now feel free to judge me how terrible of a person I'm for doing that terrible forbidden <- \o/ ...stuff irl.
"


The most irrelevant post in the entire thread, most of us don't share your communistic world view- nobody I know is going to build carriers free of charge. I don't work for free in real life, I'm not doing it in video games, neither do my mates. Back to the point, these changes are terrible. They're a lazy approach to solve a problem that's going to be easily circumvented by just ditching carriers and hopping into marauders for some other ship that can clear anoms just as fast.

What they're doing to endgame ships is in truth, unjustifiable and I know dozens of people that are quitting the game for as a result of it. I've never seen anything like the hate I'm hearing in comms, it's shocking how many people are fed up with CCP ignoring our CSM reps and to make divisive, dramatic changes like the one proposed.
Isuro Tanaka
Perkone
Caldari State
#1280 - 2017-06-10 18:09:49 UTC
Nasar Vyron wrote:
Isuro Tanaka wrote:
Sure seems like a lot of "1 % of 1%" people here...hmmm.


You realize you're on the EVE forums correct? So ya, this is a fraction of a fraction of the actual playerbase. The majority of which are HS players who don't give two ***** what null players cry about. And this is just crying about CCP balancing something people were foolish enough to throw RL money into to inject for under the delusion that it was actually going to stay broken.

If injectors were never introduced this would have never turned into such a massive problem. Just like rorqs would have enjoyed a few more months in the sun if we didn't suddenly have thousands of new perfect pilots popping up literally over night. CCP made the mistake of implementing them at all in the hopes it would help new players, which is definitively has, however it opened this can of worms which has made the gains arguably not worth it. Hell even limiting their use to just alpha-level skills would have been a better implementation than what we have.

Because people have spent real money there are those that feel entitled to their gold rounds more than ever before. Forgetting cost has never, should never, will never, be a factor in balance. Especially to the detriment of game health and stability. Anyone with the mindset that they deserve an imbalanced ship due to time or money spent to obtain it are better off just unsubbing.


The "fraction" of the playerbase that has kept this game going for so long, the ones that even got the game on the map for those hisec people to even be playing the game for the most part. I will agree with you on injectors though and honestly the ghost training issue compounds that even further.