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How to fix the broken bounty hunting mechanic

Author
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#21 - 2017-06-05 00:03:18 UTC
Between alts and immortality, bounties will never be as glamorous as you want. You will never stop people being able to collect their own bounty. So you have two choices. They either pay out peanuts or you make them worthwhile enough that people will collect their own and exploit the system. There is no inbetween.

CCP went for peanuts.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#22 - 2017-06-05 01:40:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Ima Wreckyou
Ikshuki wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
...Why would I kill my expensive implants instead of jumpcloning into an empty pod in the citadel I live in, which has zero cooldown, and podding that empty clone, then jumping back into my real clone with all the bounty money in my pocket and a total time expenditure of however long it takes to move my alt in plus ~thirty seconds?

Why should bounty hunting be irrelevant to what, 80-90% of the game?
whatever dude, stop crying, it's an idea, not a science project


Wow, that one died fast
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#23 - 2017-06-05 07:41:03 UTC
Yeah, I don't understand getting any kind of info on the target for placing a bounty.

The only 'fix' is a simple contract--- Just like the ones we have now for trading items and such.

To claim the bounty contract and receive payment you just have to have a killmail that matches the specifications- Pilot, Ship or ISK value destroyed or any and possibly all information available on that killmail- dated after the contract was created.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#24 - 2017-06-05 13:07:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Donnachadh
Ikshuki wrote:
where did i say it would be 100% free intel? i specifically said you have have info on them from 1.0 - 0.4 systems only, you don't read everything through do you? you just generalize

Simply because this idea does not include ALL areas of space you get a -1 from me.
Then we can add another -1 because any system that has as many restrictions as this one is not worth spending time on.

Daichi Yamato wrote:
You will never stop people being able to collect their own bounty.

Stopping people from profiting by killing one of their own characters is the easiest of all the bounty hunting problems to solve.

Immortality is not relevant to this either, it is something you like to parade around as a supposedly negative aspect to any bounty hunting idea that gets posted.

One has to wonder If being immortal makes bounties irrelevant why do you want to keep the current bounty system?
I mean if immortal makes these new idea irrelevant the immortal makes the current one irrelevant as well.
What does it matter if one irrelevant bounty system is replaced with another irrelevant bounty system?
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#25 - 2017-06-05 14:36:45 UTC
I'm not that arsed about the current bounty system. It's essentially just an added isk tip for killing people. So low that there is no gain in killing yourself unless you didn't want that ship/implants anyways. It's not cowboy bebop, but it's as good as we are going to get.

Immortality is very much relevant. Is Perma-death was a thing then the old bounty system would have been perfect. No one would shoot themselves to collect a bounty. Not without skill extracting the hell out of them first anyways.

So how would you stop people collecting bounties on themselves? Cause im expecting a convoluted mechanic where you don't get to choose who you hunt. Which won't work.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#26 - 2017-06-05 15:45:26 UTC
I like that you didn't let your lack of knowledge and experience prevent you from making a horrible suggestion.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#27 - 2017-06-05 18:00:02 UTC
Ikshuki wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
This isn't a working system. If you put a one billion ISK bounty on me, I would undock in a reaper and kill it with my out of corp alt so I could pocket all the money.

Just because you would know literally everything about my character with no effort whatsoever doesn't mean I couldn't game the system with my own alts.


Then again, with all the restrictions you want to put on actually placing a bounty, I really don't know why you think it would mean a nullsec group would have to take any kind of precautions against them.


I mean, other than telling anyone who cared to look everything about any cap or super pilot who ever ventured into lowsec I guess.
exactly, it's called balance, every mechanic has an exploit, a loophole, not like it would have a large loophole, who the **** is going to go out of their way and pod kill themselves in null having very expensive cap ship implants? bounty hunting should be designed for low seccers, not for null, though it should be allowed to spill into null if it escalates to get that bounty kill

Roll

I don't have cap ship implants. So if you place large bounty on my I'd pod myself with an OOC alt under this system. Noting that some players will have expensive implants is not a very robust argument in it's favor.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Ajem Hinken
WarFear Gaming
#28 - 2017-06-07 04:34:26 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:

Now, why can I not bounty a guy for badposting on the forums, smacktalking in local, camping in null, killing me in null or a wormhole, bumping, being an industrial competitor, having stupid hair or siimply flying an expensive ship?

Or putting a bounty on you, wardeccing you, humiliating you in front of an entire system, gatecamping you in your home system using killrights, mining, scamming you in Jita, hauling the very thing you just bought for 1 billion through a 0.4 system, stealing an entire rat site worth of kills, being slightly too creepy, and then there's the good ol' racism and discrimination, like putting a bounty on someone because they speak Russian and have a black character.

:P

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6875494#post6875494 - Ship mounted explosives. Because explosions and Jita chaos.

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#29 - 2017-06-07 13:04:00 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:

Stopping people from profiting by killing one of their own characters is the easiest of all the bounty hunting problems to solve.


You mean like the current system where I have to destroy many time the bounty value to collect it in full?
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#30 - 2017-06-07 13:06:06 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Ikshuki wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
This isn't a working system. If you put a one billion ISK bounty on me, I would undock in a reaper and kill it with my out of corp alt so I could pocket all the money.

Just because you would know literally everything about my character with no effort whatsoever doesn't mean I couldn't game the system with my own alts.


Then again, with all the restrictions you want to put on actually placing a bounty, I really don't know why you think it would mean a nullsec group would have to take any kind of precautions against them.


I mean, other than telling anyone who cared to look everything about any cap or super pilot who ever ventured into lowsec I guess.
exactly, it's called balance, every mechanic has an exploit, a loophole, not like it would have a large loophole, who the **** is going to go out of their way and pod kill themselves in null having very expensive cap ship implants? bounty hunting should be designed for low seccers, not for null, though it should be allowed to spill into null if it escalates to get that bounty kill

Roll

I don't have cap ship implants. So if you place large bounty on my I'd pod myself with an OOC alt under this system. Noting that some players will have expensive implants is not a very robust argument in it's favor.


Who the hell can afford "expensive cap ship implants" but not a jump clone to a clean pod?
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#31 - 2017-06-07 14:48:35 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
I'm not that arsed about the current bounty system. It's essentially just an added isk tip for killing people. So low that there is no gain in killing yourself unless you didn't want that ship/implants anyways. It's not cowboy bebop, but it's as good as we are going to get.

That's the problem if it was changed in appropriate ways we could have a system that allowed for players to hunt bounties for profit. Essentially the problem is not what CCP can or cannot do with the actual system / mechanics the problem lies in this idiotic and unrealistic idea that you can bounty anyone at anytime and for any reason or no reason at all, that is what makes bounties in EvE useless. But hey if you would rather have a useless system that has no real affect on the game or the characters in it, a system that does not serve as a content driver that is your choice. Me I would rather give up the useless nature of bounties that we have in exchange for a system that allows players to profit by hunting bounties and that has a realistic chance of serving as a content driver.

Daichi Yamato wrote:
Immortality is very much relevant. Is Perma-death was a thing then the old bounty system would have been perfect. No one would shoot themselves to collect a bounty. Not without skill extracting the hell out of them first anyways.

Obviously you do not even understand how bounty hunting works in real life it is no wonder you cannot understand how it could work in a game. That whole romantic notion of the "Wanted Dead or Alive" style of bounty does not exist, in fact a bounty hunter that kills his / her target will end up in jail on murder charges unless they can prove it was done in self defense.

Another major difference between EvE and real life is simply that in real life you as a person CANNOT place a bounty. You take your case to a court or other legal system and if they agree with your case then that court or other legal system places the bounty requiring you to put up a bond to cover the bounty amount.

Daichi Yamato wrote:
So how would you stop people collecting bounties on themselves? Cause im expecting a convoluted mechanic where you don't get to choose who you hunt. Which won't work.

Yet another sad statement about your ability to problem solve with regards to bounties in this game. Also a sad statement that you are so used to convoluted mechanics that you cannot see an extremely simple solution. So let us set up a basic bounty situation as an example so we need three characters we will simply call them "A", "B" and "C".

"A" wants to place a 20 million ISK bounty on "B" so off they go to the nearest bounty window in game.
Bounty window says sure you can do that, and automatically transfers 22 million ISK from "A"'s wallet. 20 million to cover the bounty payout and 10% of the bounty amount as an ISK sink we will call the registration and licensing fee.
"C" finds "B" in a system somewhere and kills "B"collecting the 20 million ISK bounty.

If "A", "B" and "C" are all controlled by the same player that players has not profited from the bounty, in point of fact it has actually cost them 2 million ISK. Why yes you are correct "C" as a character did profit from the bounty and to be honest I do not care, see I am not worried about which character profits from the bounty, I am only concerned about the PLAYER behind that character. In this case the PLAYER that controls all three characters could simply transfer the ISK from "A" to "C" and save themselves the 10% fee in the process.

But wait what it you Daichi controls "B" and "C" you may ask.
Well glad you did ask because this does not matter. While you are technically profiting from killing your own character the ISK has come from the wallet of character "A". If you have a friend or corp mate that is controlling "A" and they want to continually pay the 10% fee instead of simply transferring the ISK from them to you I have no problem with that. And if "A" is controlled by someone you do not know then I have no problem with you profiting from killing your own character because it is not something you can do on a continual basis.
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#32 - 2017-06-07 15:23:35 UTC
well to stop players from profiting from killing their own guys you could always restrict accounts logged in, you know like alphas for "balance"

Murder the alts\o/ all to the showers!

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#33 - 2017-06-07 15:30:06 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:


But wait what it you Daichi controls "B" and "C" you may ask.
Well glad you did ask because this does not matter. While you are technically profiting from killing your own character the ISK has come from the wallet of character "A". If you have a friend or corp mate that is controlling "A" and they want to continually pay the 10% fee instead of simply transferring the ISK from them to you I have no problem with that. And if "A" is controlled by someone you do not know then I have no problem with you profiting from killing your own character because it is not something you can do on a continual basis.


A just always end up transferring money to B/C unless B is too stupid to kill himself with an alt. The reason I don't want a system like that isn't because I don't want people to ever be able to bounty hunt but because I don't want a system to be worked on just so it can be gamed once again. If they remake bounty hunting, I think they really need to make a full system, not just modify some small part and let the rest as is.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#34 - 2017-06-07 15:32:25 UTC
Agondray wrote:
well to stop players from profiting from killing their own guys you could always restrict accounts logged in, you know like alphas for "balance"

Murder the alts\o/ all to the showers!


Hey look, there is a laptop right beside my gaming computer. I wonder if I could launch EVE on it on a second account and kill my main to collect the bounty without having to use the same computer.

Oh you prevent my IP adress from doing it? let me use that VPN while I laugh at everyone living with other EVE players be it in appartements, houses, dorms, whatever...

SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#35 - 2017-06-07 15:34:25 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:


Yet another sad statement about your ability to problem solve with regards to bounties in this game. Also a sad statement that you are so used to convoluted mechanics that you cannot see an extremely simple solution. So let us set up a basic bounty situation as an example so we need three characters we will simply call them "A", "B" and "C".

"A" wants to place a 20 million ISK bounty on "B" so off they go to the nearest bounty window in game.
Bounty window says sure you can do that, and automatically transfers 22 million ISK from "A"'s wallet. 20 million to cover the bounty payout and 10% of the bounty amount as an ISK sink we will call the registration and licensing fee.
"C" finds "B" in a system somewhere and kills "B"collecting the 20 million ISK bounty.

If "A", "B" and "C" are all controlled by the same player that players has not profited from the bounty, in point of fact it has actually cost them 2 million ISK. Why yes you are correct "C" as a character did profit from the bounty and to be honest I do not care, see I am not worried about which character profits from the bounty, I am only concerned about the PLAYER behind that character. In this case the PLAYER that controls all three characters could simply transfer the ISK from "A" to "C" and save themselves the 10% fee in the process.


This has to be one of the most spectacular failures to understand the problem I have ever witnessed.

First of all, the self-claiming problem does not have (and has never had) anything to do with someone placing the bounty on themselves. This A, B, and C are all the same person scenario you've dreamed up and subsequently "solved"? Yeah, aside from yourself. nobody has ever suggested that this was a problem. You really knocked the stuffing out of that straw man, champ.

Quote:

But wait what it you Daichi controls "B" and "C" you may ask.
Well glad you did ask because this does not matter. While you are technically profiting from killing your own character the ISK has come from the wallet of character "A". If you have a friend or corp mate that is controlling "A" and they want to continually pay the 10% fee instead of simply transferring the ISK from them to you I have no problem with that. And if "A" is controlled by someone you do not know then I have no problem with you profiting from killing your own character because it is not something you can do on a continual basis.


So "A" places a bounty on the head of his enemy, "B".
"B" claims the bounty on himself with his alt, "C", walking off with the cash.

Instead of placing a bounty, "A" has literally just gifted his enemy some money, and you think this is an improvement over the status quo? Roll

This would certainly allow people to hunt bounties for profit, only in the more literal sense that they're hunting bounties - as in, the bounty placement itself, and not the person the bounties have been placed on.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Kassimila
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#36 - 2017-06-07 15:52:36 UTC
WingspanTT had some really good ideas on this subject.

Video of Idea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rftmAQdq_bg

TLDR: Kind of like your idea, except you would get a random list of a few people to hunt (1 per skill level) maybe? And get the entire bounty if you get him. You can only get bounty if it's on your list. So yes you'd get free intel, but only on a few random people.

Delta122
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#37 - 2017-06-07 16:02:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Delta122
Whats the point, with these "Suggestions" there would be no "Hunting" involved... All the work would have been done for you... Wtf is the point? There are locator agents you can use, and Zkillboard. you can almost do all what your asking if you just put the time in and do your homework... How much SP someone has should always remain hidden, advertising it would be stupid, and unfair to that person. The pilot with the bounty has every right to defend themselves as you do to try and gain the bounty... Getting a ridiculously unfair advantage over said pilot is just plain wrong. And frankly not very fun.
Asset Confiscation Officer
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2017-06-09 18:19:46 UTC
while we all appreciate another (Roll) how to fix the bounty system post, all your points can be avoided / exploited and so nothing about the bounty system would change except that a lot of CCP coding time would be wasted.
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