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How to fix the broken bounty hunting mechanic

Author
Ikshuki
Sleepercore
#1 - 2017-06-04 19:01:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Ikshuki
a better way to redesign the bounty system is to have a full list of players you can scroll through all day that are in your threshold of SP count, then have a tracking window that states the last time they they were online, what SP the player has, what ship they last were in, how many pod kills they have, and how many times they were killed and where, and of course the bounty worth, and each player that's in the list of bounties has a refresh timer starting from the first bounty placed on them that updates their last seen activity, like what station they last left from, then the rules,

1. can't bounty hunt someone in an npc corp
2. bounty can't be claimed by someone in your corp
3. bounty can't be claimed if they're in an npc corp
4. if a player is in an npc corp no one can place a bounty on that player
5. if the player in a player corp with a bounty on them leaves goes into an npc corp, the bounty on them is wiped
6. you can only bounty hunt and legally kill in 0.5 systems or lower
7. you can only place a bounty on someone that is either aggressed or have kill rights on, giving a time limit of opportunity to decide to place a bounty on that player´╗┐
8. what bounty worth you see on the player, you get in full, no matter if they're in a pod or what ship they're in
9. you can only gain intel on players that was in 1.0-0.4 stations only, you are on your own in lower sec and null
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2017-06-04 19:36:01 UTC
So, all you have to do to completely reverse all the watchlist changes is bounty every supercapital pilot?

So every time one logs on, you can get fifty dreads prestaged and ready to gank them the second you get a cyno hic on grid, because you instantly know when every single one logs in, their SP, thier stomping grounds and where they are ******* docked? Did you even THINK about the kind of thing you can do with 100% free intel like this?


Not to mention the whole 'all you have to do is convo the guy, arrange to kill his ibis and split the bounty 50:50 with him', or 'use your alt in another corp, claim all the money for yourself' tactics.



Now, why can I not bounty a guy for badposting on the forums, smacktalking in local, camping in null, killing me in null or a wormhole, bumping, being an industrial competitor, having stupid hair or siimply flying an expensive ship?
Ikshuki
Sleepercore
#3 - 2017-06-04 19:39:37 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
So, all you have to do to completely reverse all the watchlist changes is bounty every supercapital pilot?

So every time one logs on, you can get fifty dreads prestaged and ready to gank them the second you get a cyno hic on grid, because you instantly know when every single one logs in, their SP, thier stomping grounds and where they are ******* docked? Did you even THINK about the kind of thing you can do with 100% free intel like this?


Not to mention the whole 'all you have to do is convo the guy, arrange to kill his ibis and split the bounty 50:50 with him', or 'use your alt in another corp, claim all the money for yourself' tactics.



Now, why can I not bounty a guy for badposting on the forums, smacktalking in local, camping in null, killing me in null or a wormhole, bumping, being an industrial competitor, having stupid hair or siimply flying an expensive ship?
when i say station, i mean npc stations, i did consider cap FCs, so all info for those living in null is anonymous as long as they're living in player structures
Ikshuki
Sleepercore
#4 - 2017-06-04 19:41:47 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
So, all you have to do to completely reverse all the watchlist changes is bounty every supercapital pilot?

So every time one logs on, you can get fifty dreads prestaged and ready to gank them the second you get a cyno hic on grid, because you instantly know when every single one logs in, their SP, thier stomping grounds and where they are ******* docked? Did you even THINK about the kind of thing you can do with 100% free intel like this?


Not to mention the whole 'all you have to do is convo the guy, arrange to kill his ibis and split the bounty 50:50 with him', or 'use your alt in another corp, claim all the money for yourself' tactics.



Now, why can I not bounty a guy for badposting on the forums, smacktalking in local, camping in null, killing me in null or a wormhole, bumping, being an industrial competitor, having stupid hair or siimply flying an expensive ship?
besides, if you're living in null, you're not exactly going out looking for bounties, you're too busy defending your own turf
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2017-06-04 19:58:10 UTC
Which answers nothing, and shows you have no idea about nullsec. Well done.
Ikshuki
Sleepercore
#6 - 2017-06-04 20:01:40 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Which answers nothing, and shows you have no idea about nullsec. Well done.
right
Ikshuki
Sleepercore
#7 - 2017-06-04 20:04:39 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Which answers nothing, and shows you have no idea about nullsec. Well done.
sounds to me like you're a little bit scared of a working bounty system, it would mean you goons might actually have to do more than zurk in one area of space in order to move expensive assets into null
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#8 - 2017-06-04 20:13:20 UTC
This isn't a working system. If you put a one billion ISK bounty on me, I would undock in a reaper and kill it with my out of corp alt so I could pocket all the money.

Just because you would know literally everything about my character with no effort whatsoever doesn't mean I couldn't game the system with my own alts.


Then again, with all the restrictions you want to put on actually placing a bounty, I really don't know why you think it would mean a nullsec group would have to take any kind of precautions against them.


I mean, other than telling anyone who cared to look everything about any cap or super pilot who ever ventured into lowsec I guess.
Ikshuki
Sleepercore
#9 - 2017-06-04 20:17:56 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
This isn't a working system. If you put a one billion ISK bounty on me, I would undock in a reaper and kill it with my out of corp alt so I could pocket all the money.

Just because you would know literally everything about my character with no effort whatsoever doesn't mean I couldn't game the system with my own alts.


Then again, with all the restrictions you want to put on actually placing a bounty, I really don't know why you think it would mean a nullsec group would have to take any kind of precautions against them.


I mean, other than telling anyone who cared to look everything about any cap or super pilot who ever ventured into lowsec I guess.
exactly, it's called balance, every mechanic has an exploit, a loophole, not like it would have a large loophole, who the **** is going to go out of their way and pod kill themselves in null having very expensive cap ship implants? bounty hunting should be designed for low seccers, not for null, though it should be allowed to spill into null if it escalates to get that bounty kill
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#10 - 2017-06-04 20:22:26 UTC
...Why would I kill my expensive implants instead of jumpcloning into an empty pod in the citadel I live in, which has zero cooldown, and podding that empty clone, then jumping back into my real clone with all the bounty money in my pocket and a total time expenditure of however long it takes to move my alt in plus ~thirty seconds?

Why should bounty hunting be irrelevant to what, 80-90% of the game?
Ikshuki
Sleepercore
#11 - 2017-06-04 20:25:18 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
...Why would I kill my expensive implants instead of jumpcloning into an empty pod in the citadel I live in, which has zero cooldown, and podding that empty clone, then jumping back into my real clone with all the bounty money in my pocket and a total time expenditure of however long it takes to move my alt in plus ~thirty seconds?

Why should bounty hunting be irrelevant to what, 80-90% of the game?
whatever dude, stop crying, it's an idea, not a science project
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#12 - 2017-06-04 20:28:08 UTC
It's an idea. this is an ideas discussion forum. You refuse to discuss the problems with your idea. Why is that?
Ikshuki
Sleepercore
#13 - 2017-06-04 20:29:41 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
It's an idea. this is an ideas discussion forum. You refuse to discuss the problems with your idea. Why is that?
that's strange, i thought that's what we were just talking about, are you not reading my past posts? or are you just ignoring them because you know i have a valid point?
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#14 - 2017-06-04 20:33:53 UTC
At no point have you addressed the 100% free intel any bountied character displays about themselves, which could currently only be figured out if you wrangle a full API out of them and convince them never to delete it. Please explain why that is good.

At no point have you explained why it is a good idea to hand any bounty money placed on anyone to that character for the low low cost of moving an alt over to claim the bounty. Please clarify this.

At no point have you explained any justification behind the huge limitations you wish to place on the actual placing of a bounty. Please explain why you wish this to happen.
Ikshuki
Sleepercore
#15 - 2017-06-04 20:41:41 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
At no point have you addressed the 100% free intel any bountied character displays about themselves, which could currently only be figured out if you wrangle a full API out of them and convince them never to delete it. Please explain why that is good.

At no point have you explained why it is a good idea to hand any bounty money placed on anyone to that character for the low low cost of moving an alt over to claim the bounty. Please clarify this.

At no point have you explained any justification behind the huge limitations you wish to place on the actual placing of a bounty. Please explain why you wish this to happen.
where did i say it would be 100% free intel? i specifically said you have have info on them from 1.0 - 0.4 systems only, you don't read everything through do you? you just generalize
Ikshuki
Sleepercore
#16 - 2017-06-04 20:46:14 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
At no point have you addressed the 100% free intel any bountied character displays about themselves, which could currently only be figured out if you wrangle a full API out of them and convince them never to delete it. Please explain why that is good.

At no point have you explained why it is a good idea to hand any bounty money placed on anyone to that character for the low low cost of moving an alt over to claim the bounty. Please clarify this.

At no point have you explained any justification behind the huge limitations you wish to place on the actual placing of a bounty. Please explain why you wish this to happen.
and why is it so bad to have a little bit of intel to go on with players? how long have you been able to pay npcs to track locations of of player names again? it really shouldn't matter that much since you would only be given a list of bounties of players within your SP level, that means not very many players with cap vskills will be going after each other, nor will you be able track players using empty alts, so everything you just said is completely invalid to my actual idea behind it
Arden Elenduil
Unlimited Bear Works
#17 - 2017-06-04 21:07:02 UTC
Nope, terrible idea and NOT a fix at all.
Danika already elaborated on some of the issues with it.


And he's right, you're plainly ignoring any arguments against your "idea" and don't even want to discuss changes.

/thread
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#18 - 2017-06-04 21:35:51 UTC
Does this contract allow you to circumvent CONCORD?

If it does, then NO.


If, however, you simply want to make a contract that requires a killmail on a specific individual (or a specific individual in a specific ship) within a specified timeframe, sure.


The one setting the contract can put as much money in as they want. The one(s) filling the contract can decide if the price is worth attacking the target in highsec, or perhaps find a way to bait the target into Low. Free choice for all.
Cade Windstalker
#19 - 2017-06-04 22:02:19 UTC
Yeah I'm with Danika on this one. This is atrociously thought out. It brings back the biggest exploit of the old bounty system, which *everyone* took advantage of which made bounties worthless, and it brings back the 100% free intel of the waitlist, along with a bunch of other exploitable rules.

This idea is 100% worse than what we have now.

Also, OP, when someone points out the massive gaping hole in your idea, don't hand-wave it away with something like "it's an idea, not a science project". That just shows that you haven't thought out the consequences of your idea, at all.
Suren Scott
Extra-galactic Cooperative
#20 - 2017-06-04 22:24:56 UTC
Ikshuki wrote:
a better way to redesign the bounty system is to have a full list of players you can scroll through all day that are in your threshold of SP count, then have a tracking window that states the last time they they were online, what SP the player has, what ship they last were in, how many pod kills they have, and how many times they were killed and where, and of course the bounty worth, and each player that's in the list of bounties has a refresh timer starting from the first bounty placed on them that updates their last seen activity, like what station they last left from, then the rules,

...
9. you can only gain intel on players that was in 1.0-0.4 stations only, you are on your own in lower sec and null

This isn't a bounty suggestion, this is a weak automated intel suggestion with bad changes to bounties.

Quote:
8. what bounty worth you see on the player, you get in full, no matter if they're in a pod or what ship they're in

This is the exact reason we have the current bounty system. Someone placed a bounty on you? Get into the cheapest ship you can be killed in while awarding a bounty (your suggestion: even a pod) and then get an alt that is capable of claiming the bounty, meet at a safe, kill yourself, send yourself the bounty. Biomass the alt or save it for a rainy day.

1. can't bounty hunt someone in an npc corp
4. if a player is in an npc corp no one can place a bounty on that player
5. if the player in a player corp with a bounty on them leaves goes into an npc corp, the bounty on them is wiped

Players in NPC corps already can't be wardec'd, and you want to make it even easier for them to avoid conflict, to the degree where you repeated a point and then needed a 3rd to clarify an edge case?

2. bounty can't be claimed by someone in your corp

If you mean that bounties can only be claimed by a corp other than the one placing the bounty, this removes the ability to use bounties as incentive for your corp mates, for example during a war.

3. bounty can't be claimed if they're in an npc corp

Further limiting the pool of people available to kill the person you want dead. I doubt many bounty posters care who does the killing, as long as it's not suicide by alt.

6. you can only bounty hunt and legally kill in 0.5 systems or lower

So you can't get intel on low/null systems, but you can't hunt in high? Do you want more smart bombers on low-to-high sec gates or something?

7. you can only place a bounty on someone that is either aggressed or have kill rights on, giving a time limit of opportunity to decide to place a bounty on that player´╗┐

Kill rights are already their own revenge system. This point just removes the ability to bounty miners that are on "your" turf, haulers that have failed you too many times, a spy you just kicked out of corp, someone who scammed you or a friend, or even just someone who looked at you funny. We need ways to recognize more conflict drivers, not less.

Systems need to be simple, few rules, and as inclusive and ruthless as possible.
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