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Please Advise: Bowhead high-sec ganks
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Desmios Sanguis
10th Crusade
#1 - 2017-06-06 15:18:22 UTC
Hello all,

Several people I run incursions with use bowheads to transport their ships from incursion to incursion; I have been debating doing the same.

However, they have given me dire warnings about how dangerous it is.

So this seems to be about the general fit:
https://o.smium.org/loadout/101502

What I dont understand is:

https://zkillboard.com/ship/34328/

How do these bowheads die in highsec?

They told me to read up on freighter ganking before I thought about flying one -- not sure where to do that though.

How do bowheads get ganked in highsec? Looks like 20 - 40 catalysts and similars.

How do they get that many people there that quickly? I assume it is planned out way in advance...

How can I keep myself safe in a bowhead?

Can anyone please advise...
Dom Arkaral
Bannheim
Cuttlefish Collective
#2 - 2017-06-06 15:36:01 UTC
The only safe way to navigate in Highsec is to buy a mining permit for 10m isk and follow the Code.
Cool

Tear Gatherer. Quebecker. Has no Honer. Salt Harvester.

Broadcast 4 Reps -- YOU ARE NOT ALONE, EVER

Instigator of the First ISD Thunderdome

CCL Loyalist
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#3 - 2017-06-06 15:36:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
I used a bowhead to move my stuff when I did incursions and never got screwed with.

1st thing you notice about the ones that got ganked is that that are fit for speed not tank. This is a mistake, tank the Bowhead. another problem is they just chucked their fitted ships in them and went. So no tank plus billions of potential loot = gank target. also, if you have an alt, trained it to use a webbing ship.

And don't be afraid to spend time. I moved my ships like this:

Strip fittings, put ships in bowhead, give fittings to alt in proator (transport ship, can't be scanned.), fly to next focus. Transport alt warps and cloaks through every gate because most of the value is in the transport. Of course the transport alt gets there faster. And I kept a Gila or a Tengu in the bowhead as well, so while i would run incursions on one character, the transport alt would be in the next constellation over using drones or fof missiles to do anomalies to get escalations (drones and fof missiles require very little attention so are easy to multibox with an incursion toon)..

Just put some thought into it and it's possible to be almost 100% safe.
Renee Frost
Sarah's Covenant
#4 - 2017-06-06 15:56:22 UTC
Yeah, this one has the correct tanking fit: https://zkillboard.com/kill/62609958/

And still got ganked on the way to the next incursion focus.

Well, technically there is no way to be 100% safe since they can keep bumping you with a velator for 3 minutes while throwing tornadoes and catalysts at you.
Dom Arkaral
Bannheim
Cuttlefish Collective
#5 - 2017-06-06 16:01:04 UTC
Renee Frost wrote:
Yeah, this one has the correct tanking fit: https://zkillboard.com/kill/62609958/

And still got ganked on the way to the next incursion focus.

Well, technically there is no way to be 100% safe since they can keep bumping you with a velator for 3 minutes while throwing tornadoes and catalysts at you.

Nados are not used by us on freighters, they're only really good against active tanked boats or smaller haulers.. Talos is better by far at popping cherries

Tear Gatherer. Quebecker. Has no Honer. Salt Harvester.

Broadcast 4 Reps -- YOU ARE NOT ALONE, EVER

Instigator of the First ISD Thunderdome

CCL Loyalist
Alaric Faelen
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2017-06-06 16:04:10 UTC
You'll find that most ganking takes place in choke point systems, especially those with lower sec status- like .5 or .6 so CONCORD doesn't spawn so quickly.

First- check your map before undocking. Don't care if it's a shuttle, look at your map. If you see a ridiculous number of ships destroyed in the past hour or so...chances are good there is active ganking going on there. So avoid it.
There are also a lot of intel channels available. Keep up on these and contribute to them.

You can do more than click on a destination and go straight there. Use the map, plot out a route even if it takes a little longer. Extra time spent moving your stuff is much less annoying than watching it explode.

Second- I agree with Jenn, move the ships in the bowhead, and any shiny mods by fast/cloaky transport. It's two trips sure, but two trips without getting ganked is better than the one trip where you did.

You can always contract to get your stuff moved as well. Incursions are an isk faucet so spending a few bucks to get your stuff moved is just the cost of doing business.

Put an alt into CODE or MiniLuv, and you'll be in the know on where they are active and if your ship is the one they are forming a gank fleet for. Can't beat intel from the inside.

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#7 - 2017-06-06 16:09:32 UTC
Desmios Sanguis wrote:

Can anyone please advise...


Red Frog

Mr Epeen Cool
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#8 - 2017-06-06 16:19:47 UTC
looks like a lot of the bowheads that go down in highsec are from wardecs or got suspect baited. A lot of the ones that got ganked are fit for agility and/or warp speed.

Compare the ones with nanos or istabs in the lows that took 74k-106k damage that got ganked by 11 bombers (20-30mil each). Now look to the full tank one that took over 200k in damage which had much higher resists thanks to the damage control they used 26 pilots to gank that. That one was worth ~15bil, it doesn't really matter if you have a tank fit if you are hauling freaking 15bil worth of loot that was easily scanned.

I don't know exactly how the gankers operate, but more EHP means they need more organization and that alone can deter some ganks, although if they see a big enough target they will call up another gank group and get those pilots that likely have ships on the route. uedama and Niarja are the classic systems where a lot of big ship ganks happen. I wouldn't be surprised if some gank groups put up scouts between incursion staging systems but again that requires more organization

tl;dr go for the max tank fit, don't carry too much cargo

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#9 - 2017-06-06 16:21:45 UTC
Renee Frost wrote:
Yeah, this one has the correct tanking fit: https://zkillboard.com/kill/62609958/

And still got ganked on the way to the next incursion focus.

Well, technically there is no way to be 100% safe since they can keep bumping you with a velator for 3 minutes while throwing tornadoes and catalysts at you.

that one was very likely a wardec kill, and it definalty wasn't a suicide gank. PIRAT does mass wardecs and is very active in the amarr area. and t3cs may be a bit op, but not 30k+ damage before concord shows up OP.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2017-06-06 16:22:50 UTC  |  Edited by: DeMichael Crimson
Well, those Bowhead's might have been traveling on Autopilot which would drop the ship off 15km's from the destination gate and then slow boat the rest of the way before jumping. That would allow the gankers time to scan the target ship, mobilize enough ships to intercept and destroy it.

Hopefully manual piloting with warp to 0 / Jump option will help safeguard you from being attack by gankers.



DMC

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#11 - 2017-06-06 16:35:11 UTC
Renee Frost wrote:
Yeah, this one has the correct tanking fit: https://zkillboard.com/kill/62609958/

And still got ganked on the way to the next incursion focus.

Well, technically there is no way to be 100% safe since they can keep bumping you with a velator for 3 minutes while throwing tornadoes and catalysts at you.


Other people beat me too it, but in your haste you neglected to realize that what you linked wasn't a gank. that was someone who didn't bother to see if he was war decced or a pvp'r who didn't realize he had a kill right someone could use against him.

Still, anything can be ganked, the point is that some effort and thought minimizes the risks. I flew with ISN and TVP and later with Warp to Me for years and never once got ganked traveling because i followed a few simple rules.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#12 - 2017-06-06 17:18:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Desmios Sanguis wrote:
How can I keep myself safe in a bowhead?

Can anyone please advise...
Perfectly safe? You can't.

DON'T FLY WHAT YOU CANNOT AFFORD TO LOSE

Forgive the caps, but that is the most important lesson you need to know. Losses in Eve only hurt when you ignore this rule. Therefore, don't fly a Bowhead until you can replace it and all its cargo at least once, if not twice (better yet 5-10 times if you want to truly be able to laugh at such a loss). If you do this you minimize the chance of yourself rage-quitting when you get unlucky and someone catches you making a mistake.

But more practically, a Bowhead will most likely be ganked if they are a) using the autopilot, or b) stuffed to the gills with valuable loot. If you move cargo in the 1B or less zone, you have very little to fear. If you do so with a webbing escort (or even with a 10s-to-warp MWD fit), your shrink the window of vulnerability so much only incredibly bad luck will result in you being shot by bad people.

99.9% of Bowheads make it safely from point to point. Even the terribly fit ones and the ones carrying too much ISK or that use autopilot. To avoid being in that small fraction of a percent, you need to make yourself an unprofitable target. That means fitting tank, not carrying too much value in cargo, and paying attention with a scout and/or a webber. Spending the small amount of effort to do this will all but ensure your safety flying a Bowhead in highsec.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Flharfh Lhar
Sasquatch Control Bureau
#13 - 2017-06-06 18:08:33 UTC
Don't fly it during a wardec.

Most of the ones that get suicide ganked are speed / agility fit.


[Bowhead, Bowhead fit]

Damage Control II
Reinforced Bulkheads II
Reinforced Bulkheads II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
500MN Microwarpdrive II

Capital Transverse Bulkhead II
Capital Transverse Bulkhead II
Capital Transverse Bulkhead II


Gets over 600k EHP with the invulns overheated.


Still, when you reach a certain ratio of isk value per EHP you will always become a profitable gank target, and the only limitations are whether the gankers can put together a fleet large enough to kill you. The post by Jenn about transporting modules in a blockade runner separately is great advice, in my opinion.
Magnus Jax
#14 - 2017-06-06 19:31:11 UTC
Simply put: they lost their bowhead because they're dumb


1) in low sec or 0.0
2) in a wardec
3) shitfit
Azomdi Nantes
Perfusus Sanguine
Pandemic Horde
#15 - 2017-06-06 19:42:32 UTC
Nothing makes you safe, other than not undocking. Besides that the below will help you as much as possible.

Proper fit
Web Alt
Manual pilot
Don't carry more than you have to (IE, don't carry 15 bil with of shiz, esp if it would fit in a runner or something else)
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#16 - 2017-06-06 19:49:41 UTC
Desmios Sanguis wrote:
Hello all,

Several people I run incursions with use bowheads to transport their ships from incursion to incursion; I have been debating doing the same.

However, they have given me dire warnings about how dangerous it is.

So this seems to be about the general fit:
https://o.smium.org/loadout/101502

What I dont understand is:

https://zkillboard.com/ship/34328/

How do these bowheads die in highsec?

They told me to read up on freighter ganking before I thought about flying one -- not sure where to do that though.

How do bowheads get ganked in highsec? Looks like 20 - 40 catalysts and similars.

How do they get that many people there that quickly? I assume it is planned out way in advance...

How can I keep myself safe in a bowhead?

Can anyone please advise...




Not to be a d!ck but wouldn't the ships you are putting into the bowhead have a better tank than the bowhead?

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#17 - 2017-06-06 19:54:47 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Desmios Sanguis wrote:
Hello all,

Several people I run incursions with use bowheads to transport their ships from incursion to incursion; I have been debating doing the same.

However, they have given me dire warnings about how dangerous it is.

So this seems to be about the general fit:
https://o.smium.org/loadout/101502

What I dont understand is:

https://zkillboard.com/ship/34328/

How do these bowheads die in highsec?

They told me to read up on freighter ganking before I thought about flying one -- not sure where to do that though.

How do bowheads get ganked in highsec? Looks like 20 - 40 catalysts and similars.

How do they get that many people there that quickly? I assume it is planned out way in advance...

How can I keep myself safe in a bowhead?

Can anyone please advise...




Not to be a d!ck but wouldn't the ships you are putting into the bowhead have a better tank than the bowhead?


The proposed fit is just shy of 600k EHP. Most of it is in structure with no resist hole to use too. You won't get all that much higher of a tank on ship carried for incursion...
Skorpynekomimi
#18 - 2017-06-06 19:57:33 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Desmios Sanguis wrote:
Hello all,

Several people I run incursions with use bowheads to transport their ships from incursion to incursion; I have been debating doing the same.

However, they have given me dire warnings about how dangerous it is.

So this seems to be about the general fit:
https://o.smium.org/loadout/101502

What I dont understand is:

https://zkillboard.com/ship/34328/

How do these bowheads die in highsec?

They told me to read up on freighter ganking before I thought about flying one -- not sure where to do that though.

How do bowheads get ganked in highsec? Looks like 20 - 40 catalysts and similars.

How do they get that many people there that quickly? I assume it is planned out way in advance...

How can I keep myself safe in a bowhead?

Can anyone please advise...




Not to be a d!ck but wouldn't the ships you are putting into the bowhead have a better tank than the bowhead?


You don't dump them in a ship bay for tank, you do it for convenience.

OP:
How not to get shot:
1. Tank your ****.
2. EHP!
3. Speed is good too.
4. Don't go out of highsec.
5. Don't go through major systems.
6. Don't fly expensive vulnerable stuff into Jita.
7. Paranoia. Change your ship name. Change your route. Change your ship.
8. GIT GUD. Tanking skills, not just for your carebear specialisation
9. Don't fly under a wardec.
10. OPSEC. Keep your fool mouth shut.

Economic PVP
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#19 - 2017-06-06 20:09:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Chainsaw Plankton
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Not to be a d!ck but wouldn't the ships you are putting into the bowhead have a better tank than the bowhead?

nope, full tank bowhead is a bit under 500k ehp (can go a bit over with passive tank hardwires (slots 7, 8, and 10)) this nightmare comes out to 204k (up to 221k with bulkheads instead of pds), and that is with 2 tank rigs, I have no idea what rigs they are using now. mach and vindi can have pretty similar tanks. I mean sure if you add up the ehp of a mach, vindi, nightmare, and a logi you will have more EHP, but that involves taking many trips. If you only have one ship it makes sense to just move it, and of course taking precautions like moving the shiny mods in a blockade runner make sense.

heck according to osmon the fit has just under 600k ehp, eft is saying about 100k less for whatever reason

[Nightmare, Incursion - Travel]
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Damage Control II

Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
100MN Afterburner II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Large Remote Capacitor Transmitter II
Large Remote Shield Booster II

Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Large Core Defense Field Extender II
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation II

Hobgoblin II x5
Curator II x2

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#20 - 2017-06-06 20:18:58 UTC
The most effective way to not let this happen is to not fly a big fat whale full of goodies, if you plan on doing incursions you have to move ships by flying them yourself, unfortunately we have folks who want only to ruin your good time, it is their purpose, it gives them what they lack in life, satisfaction, satisfaction because they are angry about something in RL so this game gives them a way to pass their misery on. (ok, psycho babel done).


Everyone is going to tell you don't fly what you can't lose, tank, give the risk to others, etc, all valid, but here is a rule of thumb, don't make it worth the other players time, don't faction fit, use T-1 mods, T-2, only, storyline mods are ok if they are cheap enough.

Have copies of ships, if everything you have is tied up in one ship then when something happens (and it will), you will be left kicking the ground, either buy extra ships, or build them, and spread your assets across Eden, have ships in every racial space, by having assets in many places you can just jump in a shuttle or jump clone and enjoy, this is the most effective because you can be anywhere at anytime and enjoying your eve does not depend on one area, we can never be free of defectives but we can reduce their good time by being absent from their gaze.
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