Crime & Punishment

Hi mom!

so tl;dr me buying meta scrams for my sabres is killing eve?

Gareth,

Rarely anyone was willing to assist me except for a limited few eager to earn some cash quickly, and your markets had very little supplies that I as a Minmatar pilot needed in order to operate, much less the needed munitions to enable I and several others who discussed the innefficiencies occuring within your alliance. The pandemic legion members that have posted in this thread without any sort of tact are a perfect example of the toxic internal politics that is occuring within your organization, and is a perfect example of the neglatory treatment those of with any sort of individuality, creativity, and or ambition are treated with. You misinterpret my words as I interpreting the PanFam as evil, an incorrect presumption on your part as I am pointing at the innefficiencies within your alliance that I extremely disagree with due to the haphazard nature in how the Horde is structured, especially with the literal pyramid scheme of it is managed. I suggest looking at the writing on the wall and see how all your newcomers feel after a week because I wasn't the only one to struggle in your organization, and one should look inward before accusing someone whom witnessed firsthand.

I feel it is immature to simply go after someone or an organization because I disagree with how aspects of it are operating or the incompetence of its leadership failing to be supportive of its new members who show the promise of ambition or that fiery spark of creativity. I even offered my assistance outside of your organization, but sadly your organization fails to realize that how they operate currently is plagued with inefficiencies and redundancies, as you've become dependant on Jita for income and hardware. Any nullsec corporation worth its salt can mass produced the nessecary hardware without having to suckle at the teat of an empire's trade hub, because your alliance cannot last if it had to be severed from hi-sec.

You misinterpret my words as I interpreting the PanFam as evil, an incorrect presumption on your part as I am pointing at the innefficiencies within your alliance that I extremely disagree with due to the haphazard nature in how the Horde is structured, especially with the literal pyramid scheme of it is managed. I suggest looking at the writing on the wall and see how all your newcomers feel after a week because I wasn't the only one to struggle in your organization, and one should look inward before accusing someone whom witnessed firsthand.

I understood what you wrote and meant. I did not misinterpret anything. You have now written at least two walls of text and possibly more on this topic. EVE is a sandbox, go and do what you want in it. Just stay away from the Tootsie Rolls, because they aren't! You really should move on and stop whining like a three year old having a tantrum!

Also, 'neglatory' is not a word.

Bull.

I spent an hour in a private convo with you trying to help you get your footing after you lost 50mil isk in a week. You never listened to my suggestions, and I found out later you had been helped extensively by people I know for a fact know their **** when you first joined horde and wanted to get started building stuff. You were explicitly told your idea for producing vigils was a terrible one but you did it anyway then complained about the lost ISK.

And as for your fleet ops, everyone can post an OP and FC it, but actual people have to want to go on it in the first place. Seeing as you went for an ambitious hisec ganking op - ambitious because people generally expect to have ships waiting for them there, handed out by the FC, and you did not have the isk for this - as your first op, nobody had high hopes for the op. You also wrapped it up in so much pomp and flair that nobody could take it seriously. It's like you ate a thesaurus and transcribed the... results. If you wanted to gank stuff to death and pillage the wrecks, you could have taken out a gatecamp op instead with cheapy (and handed out by the NBI) thrashers/slashers/etc. They're literally some of the easiest ops to FC. I'd likely have gone on your gatecamp op as I like gatecamping. But no, you made a forum thread for an op nobody wanted to go on, and whats more, you didn't actually post it on the op board.

This dialogue between Pandemic Horde and one of its dissidents intriguing, though I question if his "disagreements" are legitimate since he paints this vivid portrait of a failing alliance. I commend StarTerrorPrime in his vocabulary and passion, though it is somewhat overeccentric opposed to summarizing and pointing out these "Innefficiencies" he insists on gabbing on about. I will note to keep his advice in mind while I'm in search of corporation, as to avoid the same potential error he may've encountered.

I have entire list of things I disagree with how Pandemic Horde is ran, and pretty much have said them already:

1. They are stubborn to accept change or new ideas
2. Their economy sucks at the moment with Cost Push Inflation and Demand-pull inflation
3. Their entire logistics network sucks, with all their citadels and engineering complexes centered in two systems as opposed to spreading them out.
4. Fleet response time is slow, as when I had an emergency, the fleet failed to arrive until it was too late
5. Their salvaging operations are way too hyper competitive as by the time you get there, its already picked clean
6. Their miners are too dependant on exporting ore for income instead of selling locally equivalent to Jita buy price, which is a fair price to buy ore at mind you
7. They want their members to be dependant on their shipping company, Valhalla shipping, to get anything out of hi sec space when its not economical to contract the service
8. Prices for minerals alone are way above Jita sell price, almost to the equivalent of Amarr's.
9. Their directors, NBI, and fleet commanders have rather large egos that are rather self centered versus a supportive nature that I would expect from those dealing with more fresh off the boat players
10. It took forever for anything to sell, even a line of 30 vigils and tormentors, Hell im still even trying to sell a bundle of ammo to them
11. Gobbins is a bit of a shisno considering his response to a thread was less than stellar as opposed using proper diplomacy and the nessecary leadership thats needed to lead any sort of group.
12. I made more money running my own corp in 3 days than running with them, which says quite a bit about them.
13. Their official fleet outfitting designer said my fitting designs were awful when most others i shared them with believed they were acceptable, instead of supporting my effort.
14. Getting a hold of someone took forever, and a lot of players were very anti social as they were prefer to keep to themselves
15. Horrible corporate fleet outfittings, seriously, most of them with some extremely innefficient design
16. FC's didnt read the "Art of War" to increase the efficiency of their fleet operations to be more successful
17. Could never find the ammo I needed, and if I did, it was stashed in the middle of nowhere
18. Anthur wanted me to rat out my fellow dissidents amongst the horde when i refused to do so.
19. Asteroid belts were often picked clean and had rats that were way above my level or ship class size to handle them properly
20. Location Location location! They had their operations center staged in potentially the worst place possible and far away from any sort of convenient location,, eg their real estate sucked.
21. Spread way too thin, considering what the PanFam is doing by expanding its territory so much, its gonna put a further strain on resourcecs, requiring more standing fleets when they should be consolidating what they have currently. TBH, someone can easily just walk into their territory and take a decent chunk of it without a quick enough response
22. Security Faltering, sure it was great for a while but considering the fact a Goon managed to set up camp within GME, PH's industrial center, and basically compromised the safety of its industrial center while said cloaky numbnut attacked any salvagers he saw.
23. Offering handouts, which is something I highly disagree with because of the psychology behind it, and how it effects a person negatively
24. The higher ups are more concerned about protecting PH's own assets such as rorqs over their player base and industrialists

Hoo boy.

1) If your idea's good we'll listen. Yours were not.
2) Explain to me what both of those terms mean in relation to the tiny part of Horde's economy you saw to prove that you know what those words mean.
3) They are spread out, but only in single constellations and not in an illogical manner. This point is outright false.
4) 'Emergency' is too unspecific. Generally if you're in the correct standing fleet, in the right pocket and in a not shitfit ship while flying with a little common sense, you'll rarely lose anything. We're not Concorde, we can't teleport our cruisers to you. Besides, staying alive in null is much more on you than on standing fleet.
5) Yes it's competitive but not unmanageable. First person to respond in fleet chat or grab the BM gets the site. Even during peak salvaging hours its not hard to get a site. Also you can't warp to a picked-clean site as the anom code despawns when the last rat dies and the ratter warps off once the first salvager lands on grid. No idea what you're doing to get this but it's obviously not the way we tell players to go about it, but when did you ever listen before...
6) We can't force miners to sell anywhere (or sell at all instead of using their ore themselves), only provide options. If they can get a better price via buybacks shipping it up to Jita, then they're free to do that. It's up to you to make it worth their while to sell to you.
7) Valhalla is a) not an official horde service, as it's run by horde members, b) extremely cheap considering what they do (check Black Frog's prices for what it would otherwise cost you) and c) not the only freighter service.
8) Because everyone refines the ore themselves or has it shipped down. I also know for a fact there was someone offering a dirt-cheap perfect refining service when you were in Horde.
9) We were plenty supportive to you when you were fresh off the boat. Once you proved to be a derogative mango through-and-through you were treated like one.
10) Nobody buys vigils when they're handed out for free. Nobody buys tormentors because T1 amarr frigs are generally bad.
11) I had to google what 'shisno' was then had to stop laughing. Also Gobbins is clearly good at what he does as Horde is still going strong. He just has no time for drama-creating mangos.
12) Good for you.
13) Judging by your killboard your fits were simply bad. There's a reason you're not the corp fitting designer and they are. I also know they're one of the outright nicest people I've ever had the pleasure of chatting with and would likely have offered you tips (unless I'm thinking of the wrong person and you were referring to someone else, in which case they likely would also have offered you tips).
14) Ask in our help channel in either discord or in-game, there's always someone around. This is simply false.
15) Give me one example of this. Literally one, and explain why it's bad, and see if anyone here agrees with you.
16) Lol who gives a damn. Sun Tzu didn't have reinforcement timers or cynosural fields to worry about. You can be a perfectly good FC without reading it, or any other text on warfare.
17) Use other ammo.
18) Oh, hey! And no, I asked you to tell them to come to NBI on their own so we could work out a resolution with them instead of being forced to go through you, as you're proven yourself incapable of listening. Seeing as we've literally heard nothing from any other 'dissidents' both during and after your time in Horde, I have to either assume you did not relay my offer or that they're complete fabrications.
19) Go to hisec. Also if you'd listened (funny how often that sentence crops up when dealing with you) you'd know to mine in ore anoms, not belts.
20) The view from the Beanstar is quite nice I'll have you know. Really drives up the property values, not to mention the fact that all of Horde space can be reached from the jump bridges in that nice, central constellation, including our dead-end ratting pocket.
21) You have literally no idea how to take sov, do you? You cannot simply 'walk in' and take it. You have easily-predicted timers to chew through. We'd see a fleet built to take our sov coming from miles away.
22) Welcome to nullsec. This happens everywhere. Also, if you manage to find a way to probe down an AFK cloaky ship in a safe, please enlighten the rest of us, but for now, they literally cannot be found. Also that's a load of tripe about that being our industrial centre. We don't have an industrial centre. Go build in our other ECs if GME scares you.
23) How on Earth does it affect people negatively? Oh. wait, it doesn't. In fact, it encourages them to go out and take more risks and get to learn the game quicker and better than they otherwise would have because then a new player (for whom a single frigate is their world) isn't afraid to lose it. And nobody is forcing people to accept these ships. You don't have to take the free ships if you don't want them.
24) Rorqs are player assets, not Horde's. And Rorqs stay alive due to their own pilots not being idiots, just like everyone else. And yeah, it's leadership's job to look after the alliance and its infrastructure (which everyone in the alliance can use, mind you). It's the player's job to keep themselves and their own assets alive.

OMFG.

I can feel brain cells dying. Please make it stop!!!!!

Come join us. We have literally 0 activity requirements. We only ask you to log on at least once a month, and the reason for that is so you don't get caught in an inactivity purge. Even then, if you get kicked in a purge like that, you can reapply and be back in the corp in under an hour. We don't require you to go on fleets, we don't require you to contribute to the corp at all, we don't require you to do anything at all, and that freedom is why I like Horde myself.