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Crime & Punishment

 
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Incursions: CCP is too slow - now we will act

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Raleit
Galactic Deep Space Industries
Brave Collective
#721 - 2012-01-23 19:06:14 UTC
I understand the whole sandbox concept, so party on with Mother-ship, perhaps you can create a special militia so you can take care of all glitches in the game you you deem unfair.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#722 - 2012-01-23 19:32:29 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:


The idea that nullsec powers or those outside of high sec are somehow threatened by an isk faucet in the form of high sec incursions is pretty silly. The very players they chastise for being "risk-adverse" and "cowardly" simply because they live in empire space are not the type of players gaming the economy, or leveraging that accumulated wealth for some kind of massive in-game competitive advantage. Usually, they harm no one. Most of that isk goes to adding even fancier gear to existing blinged out ships.



It's not silly and yes they harm all the market niches and the other players who have to share the same items they buy.

The second any kind of interaction happens, nothing, nothing (also see butterly effect) happens in EvE that won't affect someone else.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#723 - 2012-01-23 19:35:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:


For all you weaklings who actually have to work to pay for losses - what a bunch of idiots. You foolishly grind the endless isk-faucet Incursion system when you could skip the fights and have your alliance leaders milk bottomless moon goo isk-faucets instead.


As you say, incursions are an isk faucet.
Unlike what you say, mongoo mining is not an isk faucet.


Moon goo is just paid as much as (mostly) hi seccers want to pay for it, with THEIR isk-faucetted money.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#724 - 2012-01-23 19:47:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Hans Jagerblitzen
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:


The idea that nullsec powers or those outside of high sec are somehow threatened by an isk faucet in the form of high sec incursions is pretty silly. The very players they chastise for being "risk-adverse" and "cowardly" simply because they live in empire space are not the type of players gaming the economy, or leveraging that accumulated wealth for some kind of massive in-game competitive advantage. Usually, they harm no one. Most of that isk goes to adding even fancier gear to existing blinged out ships.



It's not silly and yes they harm all the market niches and the other players who have to share the same items they buy.

The second any kind of interaction happens, nothing, nothing (also see butterly effect) happens in EvE that won't affect someone else.


Please elaborate. Let's assume a carebear starts with a Raven. He earns some isk and sells the Raven to buy a Golem. He runs some incursions and buys a faction mod. Does the same buys another faction mod. Cycle repeats, a year later he's got like 6 different battleships, each blinged out completely.

How is he destroying market niches and harming other players? What *limited*, non-renewable resources is he "camping" by not going out and getting blown up as often as you do?

The bottom line is, far more nullsec entities use the power and wealth accumulated in 0.0 to influence events in empire space, than the citizens of empire will ever do to use the power and wealth accumulated through incursions to influence events in nullsec space.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#725 - 2012-01-23 20:03:44 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:


For all you weaklings who actually have to work to pay for losses - what a bunch of idiots. You foolishly grind the endless isk-faucet Incursion system when you could skip the fights and have your alliance leaders milk bottomless moon goo isk-faucets instead.


As you say, incursions are an isk faucet.
Unlike what you say, mongoo mining is not an isk faucet.


Moon goo is just paid as much as (mostly) hi seccers want to pay for it, with THEIR isk-faucetted money.


Didn't I already clarify this?

My *admitted bad choice of example based on technicality* has nothing to do with the fact that he's still calling someone else an idiot for playing the game when they could accept free isk from other players who are working for it - whether that isk is coming from moon goo sales, or incursion bounties. Thats right, incursion profit. Goons run them as much as anyone else. To chastise players for participating in "clicking red boxes" was utter hypocrisy on his part, all "moons =/= isk faucet" arguments aside.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Braelyn
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#726 - 2012-01-23 20:07:35 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:


The idea that nullsec powers or those outside of high sec are somehow threatened by an isk faucet in the form of high sec incursions is pretty silly. The very players they chastise for being "risk-adverse" and "cowardly" simply because they live in empire space are not the type of players gaming the economy, or leveraging that accumulated wealth for some kind of massive in-game competitive advantage. Usually, they harm no one. Most of that isk goes to adding even fancier gear to existing blinged out ships.



It's not silly and yes they harm all the market niches and the other players who have to share the same items they buy.

The second any kind of interaction happens, nothing, nothing (also see butterly effect) happens in EvE that won't affect someone else.


Please elaborate. Let's assume a carebear starts with a Raven. He earns some isk and sells the Raven to buy a Golem. He runs some incursions and buys a faction mod. Does the same buys another faction mod. Cycle repeats, a year later he's got like 6 different battleships, each blinged out completely.

How is he destroying market niches and harming other players? What *limited*, non-renewable resources is he "camping" by not going out and getting blown up as often as you do?

The bottom line is, far more nullsec entities use the power and wealth accumulated in 0.0 to influence events in empire space, than the citizens of empire will ever do to use the power and wealth accumulated through incursions to influence events in nullsec space.


What you don't seem to understand is that this process of creation and destruction is what fuels the economy. These "evil nullsec alliances" are what keeps a significant portion of the industrial sector employed. Where a nullsec alliance has to risk and many times lose tens of billions of isk in a single fight over this "moon goo" or other things you seem to feel are unfair advantages, the empire carebears can grind that same billions of isk per month and not have significant risk of losing *anything*.

I simply cannot understand how you can exude this falsely altruistic attitude whilst condemning nullsec, and all that it contributes to EVE as a whole.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#727 - 2012-01-23 21:00:28 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:


Please elaborate. Let's assume a carebear starts with a Raven. He earns some isk and sells the Raven to buy a Golem. He runs some incursions and buys a faction mod. Does the same buys another faction mod. Cycle repeats, a year later he's got like 6 different battleships, each blinged out completely.

How is he destroying market niches and harming other players? What *limited*, non-renewable resources is he "camping" by not going out and getting blown up as often as you do?

The bottom line is, far more nullsec entities use the power and wealth accumulated in 0.0 to influence events in empire space, than the citizens of empire will ever do to use the power and wealth accumulated through incursions to influence events in nullsec space.


It's not a "micro" activity.

The guy *statistically* begins with i.e. mining and does not introduce any new ISK in the system.
Then he grinds some missions. L1-L3 are an ISK faucet but very small, to the point that even just buying a couple of LP items will cancel the faucet with the LP store sink.
Then he grinds L4s. He finishes pimping his ship (more ISK sink via i.e. LP store) and then does the same with a Golem.
At this point if he goes to PvP, his ISK is still sunk (he will lose ships).
If he just keeps missioning then, he begins to create ISK with far less sink than the bounties + rewards faucets.
If he switches to incursions and farms them without killing the MOM, he's getting a MASSIVE ISK faucet running, much more than when he was "a rookie" and still had to pimp his Golem.

Now multiply this for a fleet and for hours a day and you see how the ISK flows in without a statistically relevant flow out.

Since he and the likes are adding ISK in the system at a pace faster than commodities are created, commodities (expecially the ones needed by him) become more in demand and he has to offer more money to get them.
This turns on inflation (1% a month, EvE used to have deflation instead) and 1% a month seems little but that's 12% a year.

12% on a 200M item seems little but it does add up!

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#728 - 2012-01-23 21:43:01 UTC
Braelyn wrote:

What you don't seem to understand is that this process of creation and destruction is what fuels the economy. These "evil nullsec alliances" are what keeps a significant portion of the industrial sector employed. Where a nullsec alliance has to risk and many times lose tens of billions of isk in a single fight over this "moon goo" or other things you seem to feel are unfair advantages, the empire carebears can grind that same billions of isk per month and not have significant risk of losing *anything*.

I simply cannot understand how you can exude this falsely altruistic attitude whilst condemning nullsec, and all that it contributes to EVE as a whole.


I completely understand the process of creation and destruction, without consumption of goods there is no economy. In game like EvE where the currency isn't tied to a gold reserve (or similar measure), there needs to be isk sinks (read - 'slposions) to counteract isk faucets (missions / incursions, etc). Otherwise inflation soon renders everything worthless.

The reason I said what I said is that every time I've discussed the role of the highsec market hubs with nullsec dwellers, especially regards to the importance of having more or less secure market hubs (meaning high sec space is necessary for the economy to function) all I've ever heard in return is that the nullsec alliances do not depend on goods produced in high sec, and make everything themselves out there in 0.0.

You seem to reject that notion soundly. My guess is that it depends on the Alliance.

All I was saying is that the motivation behind most of these interference campaigns is the sheer childish glee obtained from watching other players cry, not the economic principles that get whipped out and slapped down on the table in their defense. Also that empire citizens are not aggressively extending their weight into nullsec to interfere with activities out there. These are merely observations, not arguments. Your economic assertions are not incorrect.

The bottom line is, there are more effective ways to send a serious message and build a better economy than screaming "COME AND GET EM BOYZ, GET YOUR GRIEF ON RIGHT HERE THERES PLENTY OF TEARS FOR US ALL"

These kinds of campaigns are symptoms of a game balancing issue. They are not the cure for a game balancing issue. This is exactly what I said in my first post in the thread.

I am in no way condemning nullsec as a whole, I said from the very beginning they deserved to have their broken mechanics fixed. If you read my post, you'd know that I didn't even say that this campaign was unfair. If I'm condemning anything here its (as you put it) the "false altruism" where a bunch of self-described "tear collectors" turn around and pretend that they are "saving" highsec or the game in general from its own broken state.


CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Braelyn
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#729 - 2012-01-23 22:29:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Braelyn
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Braelyn wrote:

What you don't seem to understand is that this process of creation and destruction is what fuels the economy. These "evil nullsec alliances" are what keeps a significant portion of the industrial sector employed. Where a nullsec alliance has to risk and many times lose tens of billions of isk in a single fight over this "moon goo" or other things you seem to feel are unfair advantages, the empire carebears can grind that same billions of isk per month and not have significant risk of losing *anything*.

I simply cannot understand how you can exude this falsely altruistic attitude whilst condemning nullsec, and all that it contributes to EVE as a whole.


I completely understand the process of creation and destruction, without consumption of goods there is no economy. In game like EvE where the currency isn't tied to a gold reserve (or similar measure), there needs to be isk sinks (read - 'slposions) to counteract isk faucets (missions / incursions, etc). Otherwise inflation soon renders everything worthless.

The reason I said what I said is that every time I've discussed the role of the highsec market hubs with nullsec dwellers, especially regards to the importance of having more or less secure market hubs (meaning high sec space is necessary for the economy to function) all I've ever heard in return is that the nullsec alliances do not depend on goods produced in high sec, and make everything themselves out there in 0.0.

You seem to reject that notion soundly. My guess is that it depends on the Alliance.

All I was saying is that the motivation behind most of these interference campaigns is the sheer childish glee obtained from watching other players cry, not the economic principles that get whipped out and slapped down on the table in their defense. Also that empire citizens are not aggressively extending their weight into nullsec to interfere with activities out there. These are merely observations, not arguments. Your economic assertions are not incorrect.

The bottom line is, there are more effective ways to send a serious message and build a better economy than screaming "COME AND GET EM BOYZ, GET YOUR GRIEF ON RIGHT HERE THERES PLENTY OF TEARS FOR US ALL"

These kinds of campaigns are symptoms of a game balancing issue. They are not the cure for a game balancing issue. This is exactly what I said in my first post in the thread.

I am in no way condemning nullsec as a whole, I said from the very beginning they deserved to have their broken mechanics fixed. If you read my post, you'd know that I didn't even say that this campaign was unfair. If I'm condemning anything here its (as you put it) the "false altruism" where a bunch of self-described "tear collectors" turn around and pretend that they are "saving" highsec or the game in general from its own broken state.




Whether alliances produce their own goods is rather irrelevant. Whether they are bought from empire market hubs, or private sale through alliance, it still removes a good deal of materials from public consumption. Anyway, that isn't really important.

As far as the whole anti-nullsec thing, I just got that impression from reading a few of your previous posts. I am sorry if that is not the way you feel, but it was the impression I got. Whether people are supposedly "griefing" incursions by completing them as intended is not something I am interested in. The thing I think is important is that it is drawing attention to the issues with the balancing of incursions. If someone thinks it is sadistic for some non-carebears to complete PvE objectives that are otherwise being exploited, then I will ask them to consider how the sanshas must feel about being slowly and painfully slaughtered 23/7 in vanguard sites.
Sin Istersly
Meat Locker
#730 - 2012-01-23 22:53:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Sin Istersly
Ispia Jaydrath wrote:
Sin Istersly wrote:
You would treasure the act of making someone cry? Well at least you can admit how truely deplorable you are. Most evil people are delusional enough to also claim to not be so cruel. That's the point I was making earlier. I dont have a problem with griefers being griefers, I dont have an issue with people hunting each other or going to destroy others well laid plans. I just have a very low opinion of you as, and I use the term loosely, 'persons'. It takes a very insecure, unstable, and troubled individual to take joy in anothers tears. Dont mistake, I'm not crying, its your life to abuse as you please, not mine. I choose to be who I am, you choose to be who you are. I didnt start this arguement either, you guys did. I joined about halfway thru, and now your all attacking me for being different. Oh, and kudos to your success, always good to see plans come to fruition.

I never said I dont get it, I said I dont approve. But I guess that's not allowed by your communist outlook either. If I dont agree with you I'm just wrong? That's ok, I can live with that.


And this, ladies and gentlemen, is what we in the business call bitter, bitter tears.

<3

And that, ladies and gentleman, and I use both those terms VERY liberally, is what I call deluded. Enjoy your imagined non existant cyber tears. I'm gonna keep playing the game the way I like, and I'm sure your going to keep doing the same.
Ispia Jaydrath
Reib Autonomous Industries
#731 - 2012-01-23 23:08:34 UTC
Sin Istersly wrote:
Ispia Jaydrath wrote:
Sin Istersly wrote:
You would treasure the act of making someone cry? Well at least you can admit how truely deplorable you are. Most evil people are delusional enough to also claim to not be so cruel. That's the point I was making earlier. I dont have a problem with griefers being griefers, I dont have an issue with people hunting each other or going to destroy others well laid plans. I just have a very low opinion of you as, and I use the term loosely, 'persons'. It takes a very insecure, unstable, and troubled individual to take joy in anothers tears. Dont mistake, I'm not crying, its your life to abuse as you please, not mine. I choose to be who I am, you choose to be who you are. I didnt start this arguement either, you guys did. I joined about halfway thru, and now your all attacking me for being different. Oh, and kudos to your success, always good to see plans come to fruition.

I never said I dont get it, I said I dont approve. But I guess that's not allowed by your communist outlook either. If I dont agree with you I'm just wrong? That's ok, I can live with that.


And this, ladies and gentlemen, is what we in the business call bitter, bitter tears.

<3

And that, ladies and gentleman, and I use both those terms VERY liberally, is what I call deluded. Enjoy your imagined non existant cyber tears. I'm gonna keep playing the game the way I like, and I'm sure your going to keep doing the same.


Yeah. I can tell you aren't crying by the way you're frothing with rage about how people you don't like because they are winning a spaceship game are bad people in real life. You seem like a really well-adjusted person, actually.
Darius III
Interstellar eXodus
The Initiative.
#732 - 2012-01-24 00:12:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Darius III
Raleit wrote:
I understand the whole sandbox concept, so party on with Mother-ship, perhaps you can create a special militia so you can take care of all glitches in the game you you deem unfair.



Actually I used this to make progress towards another of my personal goals as CSM.

I believe that Incursions in addition to Wormholes, need and DESERVE their own sub-forums. It would be so easy to implement in terms of manpower as to make cost a nonissue. To that end I made sure that most of the relevant subforums had their very own Incursion interdiction threadnaughts. I didnt spam it, I just asked in different places what people thought. Other people made either own threads in different places and many of them hit 5,000 reads.

Maybe one day CCP will recognize the value of giving people with segregated play styles their own home on these very forums. Theres no possible harm that can come of it-only good or neutral. There is no way this could harm anyone and an estimated 25,00 - 50,000 people would directly benefit from a few hours coding.

Because I enjoy the tears, because I have had fun trolling as an overseer (read: like a boss) shouldnt take away from the positive goals I and others have worked on. Are my motives pure? Pure as the driven slush...

Rarely have the actions of so few, impacted so many in such a profound manner. The guys who made it happen, in no particular order:

Skunkworks

Kill It With Fire

The overwhelming number of independent pilots, unaffiliated with anyone

Krissada

The all volunteer Bricks that showed up

These are the people who brought victory to our campaign and forced the issue to the boiling point. Great job so far guys, looks like our work will hopefully be done-at some anyway.

Hmmm
Cardval Simalia
Doomheim
#733 - 2012-01-24 00:24:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Cardval Simalia
Darius III point about this MOM fleet being open doors is correct. This is taking power away from the elitist carebears proving that incursions are far too easy and far too well paid. Any mismatch fleet can currently kill the MOM faster than the so called organised incursion fleets which are nothing more than assholes playing FC for a day of pretend PVP against NPC's .

If these incursion fleets and FC's are so great and organized simply go out to the low or null sites as they are still up and stop moaning about the closure of high sites.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#734 - 2012-01-24 02:46:07 UTC
But it would appear that the Empire is wanting to strike back....


T2 Popcorn ready - and so is my T1 MOM Interdiction ship.


Bring back DEEEEP Space!
DooDoo Gum
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#735 - 2012-01-24 04:49:42 UTC
Hilarious !

Now tell everyone what are you doing with the isk generated through your rage fuelled tantrum ?

The irony is just too much to [care]bear...
DooDoo Gum
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#736 - 2012-01-24 04:54:32 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Psychotic Monk wrote:
We're not all of one unified motivation. While many of us are motivated by the tears, some are motivated by things like the economics of it, or the elitism of the incursion-runners. Or all of those things. Or none of those things.


Personally, I just like watching fleets of shiny ships running from one end of empire to the other chasing the latest incursion to get a few hours in before it gets closed again. It's...majestic.


You cant seriously tell me that you totally missed the irony in your own comment...

Proof of this in your own words would just make my day, please say it... please...
Sin Istersly
Meat Locker
#737 - 2012-01-24 06:22:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Sin Istersly
Ispia Jaydrath wrote:
Sin Istersly wrote:
Ispia Jaydrath wrote:
Sin Istersly wrote:
You would treasure the act of making someone cry? Well at least you can admit how truely deplorable you are. Most evil people are delusional enough to also claim to not be so cruel. That's the point I was making earlier. I dont have a problem with griefers being griefers, I dont have an issue with people hunting each other or going to destroy others well laid plans. I just have a very low opinion of you as, and I use the term loosely, 'persons'. It takes a very insecure, unstable, and troubled individual to take joy in anothers tears. Dont mistake, I'm not crying, its your life to abuse as you please, not mine. I choose to be who I am, you choose to be who you are. I didnt start this arguement either, you guys did. I joined about halfway thru, and now your all attacking me for being different. Oh, and kudos to your success, always good to see plans come to fruition.

I never said I dont get it, I said I dont approve. But I guess that's not allowed by your communist outlook either. If I dont agree with you I'm just wrong? That's ok, I can live with that.


And this, ladies and gentlemen, is what we in the business call bitter, bitter tears.

<3

And that, ladies and gentleman, and I use both those terms VERY liberally, is what I call deluded. Enjoy your imagined non existant cyber tears. I'm gonna keep playing the game the way I like, and I'm sure your going to keep doing the same.


Yeah. I can tell you aren't crying by the way you're frothing with rage about how people you don't like because they are winning a spaceship game are bad people in real life. You seem like a really well-adjusted person, actually.


Oh yes, I'm absolutely livid with rage. Clearly. I'm totally losing in comparison with my wallet draining down to nothing constantly. I dont know how I'll ever recover, my gameplay experience is permanently scarred, thats why I dont play anymore.
Darth Cipherous
Highly Rated
#738 - 2012-01-24 07:04:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Cipherous
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

I completely understand the process of creation and destruction, without consumption of goods there is no economy. In game like EvE where the currency isn't tied to a gold reserve (or similar measure), there needs to be isk sinks (read - 'slposions) to counteract isk faucets (missions / incursions, etc). Otherwise inflation soon renders everything worthless.


'slposions aren't isk sinks, they are another faucet. Each explosion introduces MORE isk into the game due to the insurance payout. No isk is destroyed. Every time a ship is destroyed it introduces isk and creates a new demand for materials to replace the ship. More isk + more demand = prices will inflate.

The only isk sinks are the lp stores, a few taxes and whatnot.
EnslaverOfMinmatar
You gonna get aped
#739 - 2012-01-24 08:41:07 UTC
Tears are better than BWAINZZZZZ (C) Sansha Nation

Every EVE player must read this http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=29-01-07
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#740 - 2012-01-24 09:08:59 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Since he and the likes are adding ISK in the system at a pace faster than commodities are created, commodities (expecially the ones needed by him) become more in demand and he has to offer more money to get them.
This turns on inflation (1% a month, EvE used to have deflation instead) and 1% a month seems little but that's 12% a year.

12% on a 200M item seems little but it does add up!
1% a month isn't 12% a year, it's actually higher (1.1^12 = 12.6%). Just sayin'.

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !